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Cloke said:
Judy said:
That's when he was a puppy and at his first opens and those were top class dogs- he must be even faster now. Its being overtaken not overtaking thats been talked about.

Regardless, if you read it, nobody has mentioned "that dog" or any dog in particular except you Julia so lets try and not make this personal.
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"That dog" was 20 months old at his first Champs,when he was overtaken by Run at Mill and Highland Warrior. Certainly not a puppy! How do you know he's faster now- you haven't seen him run since April 2009.
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My point was that nobody had talked about "that dog" as you put it in quotation marks as if somebody else had. However I guess the remarks asking "what happens if the dog in question is too fast to be passed in the clearing trial?" and the reply "i suppose you could use one of it's faster litter mates" has presumably made you think that it is Wheatroyd Gambler Boy that is being talked about as he was one of the dogs disqualified.

You are obviously feeling the need to play down his speed by naming the dogs that have beaten him and have objected to me pointing out that as he was young then, it is indeed true that you are unlikely to find a dog that can come from behind and pass him in a clearing trial unless its one of his faster litter mates.

As a matter of information,"that dog" has been beaten on numerous occasions by pedigree dogs at Championship, Open and Club level. For example:
2nd in Oxford open, 2008,

Beaten by Run At Mill and Highland Warrior 1st Champs 2008

At club level he has been beaten by Cheap Thrills and Wheal Kitty,
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At the first meeting you referred to (Oxford 2008) he was just 13 months old, not 20. It was his first ever open and he was running very green and not trapping well. Yes, he was second to Fly The Wind in the final but he also beat other top class dogs such as Flying Rocket, Jo Jo and Geisha Girl along the way. Everybody there was very impressed by his speed.

At the 1st champs in 2009 - he was 20 months old - still a puppy in racing terms - at least in my book. I think it was his 2nd ever open (though I stand to be corrected on that), but it was definitely his first bend open and he was still running very green.

You say that Run At Mill and Highland Warrior beat him in that which they did in the heat and semi but you forgot to mention that he was improving with each run and he beat them both in the final by quite a distance and was in fact only beaten by his litter mate. However, it was off scratch so how is him being beaten by them relevant to him being overtaken in a trial? The same with Cheap Thrills and Wheal Kitty who are both smaller than him. I don't know what the handicap was but they started ahead of him (or so I'm told and I can't believe that any handicapper would have started them from behind him anyway) so they didn't overtake him did they?

As for not having seen him - I have seen the results and times and presumably he is not running so green now that he has had some experience. The fact that these dogs have beaten him once (hardly "numerous times") is entirely irrelevant to finding a dog that is able to be overtake him in a clearing trial as they didn't overtake him - so why mention it. Not many people would want to play down the speed of a dog they bred.
 
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These dogs have beaten him more than once off weights as has his sis, my pup Rubys been up there with him as well as Maggi and Melissa's Savernake youngsters (all from behind!!!) a longer distance and in my limited opinion they would have beaten him but yes all ifs hey ..... ........At 20 months old for this line they are about as fast as they are going to be ......The reason this litter isn't getting beaten by dogs like Run At Mill etc is cos they came out very fast (like OTHER litters from the MacArthur line) and you all spat the dummy and started pointing fingers ..... They are very beatable but hey ...... lets not go and watch 'em, lets just judge by what we have heard via the grape vine ....... You lot make me sick ...But just my personal opinion of course .......
 
I never cease to marvel at your posts Hannah.
 
I did think I gave good advice on your question,,I no longer race,,but did race non peds for over 20yrs,,,take the dog to a non ped track,,,with who ever needs to watch the pass,,,the non ped will pass your dog or friends dog,,,non peds are faster,,,try this and run your dog,,have fun too,,,im sure your local non ped club will help as we all nice folk lol,,,no idea what area you live in,,but non ped clubs are in north scotland and also in Devon,,so a club must be and hour or 2 away,,,hope you have a few passes and get on with the racing :luck:
 
Susan said:
I did think I gave good advice on your question,,I no longer race,,but did race non peds for over 20yrs,,,take the dog to a non ped track,,,with who ever needs to watch the pass,,,the non ped will pass your dog or friends dog,,,non peds are faster,,,try this and run your dog,,have fun too,,,im sure your local non ped club will help as we all nice folk lol,,,no idea what area you live in,,but non ped clubs are in north scotland and also in Devon,,so a club must be and hour or 2 away,,,hope you have a few passes and get on with the racing :luck:
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I know that you gave good advice Susan however as Rob hasn't replied to you I will there would be problems i think

1) The re-clearing trials would have to take place at a WCRA affliated club

2) They would have be carried out on a grass bend.

Well that's my understanding.

But as some people seem to be rushing to say that the dogs aren't that fast and lots of dogs can overtake them then the use of a non-peddie isn't necessary so no problemo. Of course there are always the litter mates anyway who are said to be faster.
 
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BeeJay said:
Susan said:
I did think I gave good advice on your question,,I no longer race,,but did race non peds for over 20yrs,,,take the dog to a non ped track,,,with who ever needs to watch the pass,,,the non ped will pass your dog or friends dog,,,non peds are faster,,,try this and run your dog,,have fun too,,,im sure your local non ped club will help as we all nice folk lol,,,no idea what area you live in,,but non ped clubs are in north scotland and also in Devon,,so a club must be and hour or 2 away,,,hope you have a few passes and get on with the racing :luck:
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I know that you gave good advice Susan however as Rob hasn't replied to you I will there would be problems i think

1) The re-clearing trials would have to take place at a WCRA affliated club

2) They would have be carried out on a grass bend.

Well that's my understanding.

But as some people seem to be rushing to say that the dogs aren't that fast and lots of dogs can overtake them then the use of a non-peddie isn't necessary so no problemo. Of course there are always the litter mates anyway who are said to be faster.
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Assuming the Rob in question is me - please read the two lines below

Sorry to Susan - I didn't think your comment was address to he and that you expected a reply.

Thanks to Barbara - for the reply - I agree with your two points, your understanding is correct by me.

If the Rob isn't me please ignore the two lines above ! :wacko:
 
Judy said:
Cloke said:
Judy said:
That's when he was a puppy and at his first opens and those were top class dogs- he must be even faster now. Its being overtaken not overtaking thats been talked about.

Regardless, if you read it, nobody has mentioned "that dog" or any dog in particular except you Julia so lets try and not make this personal.
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"That dog" was 20 months old at his first Champs,when he was overtaken by Run at Mill and Highland Warrior. Certainly not a puppy! How do you know he's faster now- you haven't seen him run since April 2009.
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My point was that nobody had talked about "that dog" as you put it in quotation marks as if somebody else had. However I guess the remarks asking "what happens if the dog in question is too fast to be passed in the clearing trial?" and the reply "i suppose you could use one of it's faster litter mates" has presumably made you think that it is Wheatroyd Gambler Boy that is being talked about as he was one of the dogs disqualified.

You are obviously feeling the need to play down his speed by naming the dogs that have beaten him and have objected to me pointing out that as he was young then, it is indeed true that you are unlikely to find a dog that can come from behind and pass him in a clearing trial unless its one of his faster litter mates.

As a matter of information,"that dog" has been beaten on numerous occasions by pedigree dogs at Championship, Open and Club level. For example:
2nd in Oxford open, 2008,

Beaten by Run At Mill and Highland Warrior 1st Champs 2008

At club level he has been beaten by Cheap Thrills and Wheal Kitty,
Click to expand...
At the first meeting you referred to (Oxford 2008) he was just 13 months old, not 20. It was his first ever open and he was running very green and not trapping well. Yes, he was second to Fly The Wind in the final but he also beat other top class dogs such as Flying Rocket, Jo Jo and Geisha Girl along the way. Everybody there was very impressed by his speed.

At the 1st champs in 2009 - he was 20 months old - still a puppy in racing terms - at least in my book. I think it was his 2nd ever open (though I stand to be corrected on that), but it was definitely his first bend open and he was still running very green.

You say that Run At Mill and Highland Warrior beat him in that which they did in the heat and semi but you forgot to mention that he was improving with each run and he beat them both in the final by quite a distance and was in fact only beaten by his litter mate. However, it was off scratch so how is him being beaten by them relevant to him being overtaken in a trial? The same with Cheap Thrills and Wheal Kitty who are both smaller than him. I don't know what the handicap was but they started ahead of him (or so I'm told and I can't believe that any handicapper would have started them from behind him anyway) so they didn't overtake him did they?

As for not having seen him - I have seen the results and times and presumably he is not running so green now that he has had some experience. The fact that these dogs have beaten him once (hardly "numerous times") is entirely irrelevant to finding a dog that is able to be overtake him in a clearing trial as they didn't overtake him - so why mention it. Not many people would want to play down the speed of a dog they bred.
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You miss the point Judy. I do acknowledge and are proud of the fact that these dogs are fast, but that there are some dogs on the pedigree circuit that are as fast or faster. The problem is that they do not have competition because you have convinced some racers, without any "hard"evidence whatsoever, that they are not pedigrees. Constant Chimes was beaten in the semi at the last Champs by Flying Rocket, and Angie Parker's "Topaz" recorded a time, which if run off weights at a yard per pound. would have beaten Texacana Venture by 5 lengths. If, in your opinion and the N.P.W.R.A my dogs are so incredibly fast they can only be "non- peds", what is status of the dogs who beat them?

And yes Judy, Reg will be cleared correctly, in accordance with the ruling of the W.C. R.A. and there will be a W.C.R.A. committee member to ratify this..
 
Excuse me Julia, flattered though I am by your idea of my power and influence, its not me that's convinced people of anything. I know you have blamed various other people at one time or another as well but people are quite capable of seeing and thinking for themselves you know and I don't suppose that speed is the only factor they have taken into account when forming their opinion one way or the other.

If you are going to bring the NPWRA into this, I should point out that the NPWRA is an association of 142 people and no statement regarding your dogs has ever been made by this association.

I've never doubted that he will be cleared at the Cotswolds. In response to other people's posts, you have named dogs that have beaten him as if that will make it easy to clear him (without using one of his litter-mates). I have merely pointed out that you are playing down his speed by doing this as they have not overtaken him which is what you need to clear him. Personally, I have no interest in whether he is cleared properly or not as it won't affect me at all. However it sounds from Hannah's posts as if you have some smaller puppies going to the Cotwolds that you can put behind him to clear him with, so there's no problem there then. :thumbsup:
 
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Julia, I along with many others I am sure, take issue with your opinion that we as NPWRA members are so weak willed and dull as to be lead by the nose by Judy or anyone else. I have had whippets for 20+ years, and while I realise others may have been around longer, I do think I know what a whippet should look like. I have seen show, coursing pedi and non-ped dogs over the years, and my decision not to race at any meeting invovling your litter was born out of the evedence of my own eyes and NOT what someone else has pursuaded me to believe.
 
LJH said:
Julia, I along with many others I am sure, take issue with your opinion that we as NPWRA members are so weak willed and dull as to be lead by the nose by Judy or anyone else. I have had whippets for 20+ years, and while I realise others may have been around longer, I do think I know what a whippet should look like. I have seen show, coursing pedi and non-ped dogs over the years, and my decision not to race at any meeting invovling your litter was born out of the evedence of my own eyes and NOT what someone else has pursuaded me to believe.
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Very well said Lesley totally agree with you do they think we are lemmings we have over 30yrs in whippets to and believe our own eyes .
 
LJH said:
Julia, I along with many others I am sure, take issue with your opinion that we as NPWRA members are so weak willed and dull as to be lead by the nose by Judy or anyone else. I have had whippets for 20+ years, and while I realise others may have been around longer, I do think I know what a whippet should look like. I have seen show, coursing pedi and non-ped dogs over the years, and my decision not to race at any meeting invovling your litter was born out of the evedence of my own eyes and NOT what someone else has pursuaded me to believe.
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Lesley

You and your fellow members are entitled to your views but you ignore all the expert opinion and hard evidence produced by the Kennel Club and the Whippet Club including the most senior show judges in the breed. You have failed to persuade both the Kennel Club and Whippet Club to support you.I respect their opinion about what a whippet looks like more than yours or your members. Both Andover and Gloucester clubs banned these dogs in March 2009, (I have a letter from you on file on behalf of Gloucester), before most of your members had seen the dogs. and before the outcomes of the investigations had been published. I dont believe that most of your members have really looked at the dogs properly anyway. Incidentally, how is Judy's discussions with Mary Lowe proceeding about colour??

You are entitled to your opinion, but you ignore expert opinion and the evidence in order to ban fast dogs. To the rest of the pedigree dog world which accept K.C. decisions, it looks like sour grapes .

Julia
 
Cloke said:
LJH said:
Julia, I along with many others I am sure, take issue with your opinion that we as NPWRA members are so weak willed and dull as to be lead by the nose by Judy or anyone else. I have had whippets for 20+ years, and while I realise others may have been around longer, I do think I know what a whippet should look like. I have seen show, coursing pedi and non-ped dogs over the years, and my decision not to race at any meeting invovling your litter was born out of the evedence of my own eyes and NOT what someone else has pursuaded me to believe.
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Lesley

You and your fellow members are entitled to your views but you ignore all the expert opinion and hard evidence produced by the Kennel Club and the Whippet Club including the most senior show judges in the breed. You have failed to persuade both the Kennel Club and Whippet Club to support you.I respect their opinion about what a whippet looks like more than yours or your members. Both Andover and Gloucester clubs banned these dogs in March 2009, (I have a letter from you on file on behalf of Gloucester), before most of your members had seen the dogs. and before the outcomes of the investigations had been published. I dont believe that most of your members have really looked at the dogs properly anyway. Incidentally, how is Judy's discussions with Mary Lowe proceeding about colour??

You are entitled to your opinion, but you ignore expert opinion and the evidence in order to ban fast dogs. To the rest of the pedigree dog world which accept K.C. decisions, it looks like sour grapes .

Julia
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No Julia, what it looks like is you getting your mates in the show world to back you up. There has been no evidence from any outside party not involved with you. All laboratories have said they cannot test for parentage without both parents - something which you could not provide. Thank goodness for the NPWRA - a properly run association.
 
The wcra have already said their passport system is unworkable, and advised clubs to flout the rules - laughable :-D
 
June Jonigk said:
The wcra have already said their passport system is unworkable, and advised clubs to flout the rules - laughable :-D
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Don't think they've said their passport system is unworkable June....just rule 6.
 
Cloke said:
You and your fellow members are entitled to your views but you ignore all the expert opinion and hard evidence produced by the Kennel Club and the Whippet Club including the most senior show judges in the breed. You have failed to persuade both the Kennel Club and Whippet Club to support you.I respect their opinion about what a whippet looks like more than yours or your members. Incidentally, how is Judy's discussions with Mary Lowe proceeding about colour??
You are entitled to your opinion, but you ignore expert opinion and the evidence in order to ban fast dogs. To the rest of the pedigree dog world which accept K.C. decisions, it looks like sour grapes .

Julia
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Julia, we have been all through this many times before. I'm sure that 99% of people who've seen the dogs, seen them run and know the circumstances of the mating have made their own minds up about them by now. Nothing is going to change their opinion. I don't think there's much support, even from those still supporting the WCRA. The opportunity to confirm conclusively one way or the other wasn't taken and has now passed. If you look a bit more deeply at your 'hard evidence' you realise that there is no hard evidence at all (just my opinion of course). For example, anyone listening to you Julia may think the KC investigated your claims & support you but there was never any KC investigation, let alone any decision. Sorry, in my opinion it's all just irrelevant words. Thanks for asking about Judy's discussion with Mary Lowe regarding colour. It went very well indeed but fizzled out when Mary kind of closed the door by declaring that she had made her final report anyway.

Why would you accept a "senior show judge's" opinion about your dogs? Only because it suits you. If your dogs were show whippets then yes, that opinion would be valid. But unfortunately racing dogs and show dogs have diverged and several of the judges you are referring to even admit that most pedigree racing dogs look peculiar to them anyway. I'd prefer to accept the opinion of many people with many years experience of both pedigree and non pedigree racing whippets. As you well know a 'senior show judge' with that experience (in both racing and show whippets) did give her opinion about your dogs. Unfortunately because that opinion didn't suit you and didn't support you, you choose not to mention it.

I think the discussion is over, it's time to move on. This topic has reached an end & for that reason it's now closed.

PM'd Response by Cloke

Nigel,

it is predictable that you have closed this topic with the last word giving me no opportunity to correct the errors in your post. The Kennel Club did investigate this litter . I have correspondence to confirm that they accepted the Mary Lowe report. At the meeting of the 24th May, there were current world class show judges who confirmed that the dogs were pedigree whippets. I understand that [deleted] has not judged at Championship show level for some years. Is she still on K.C. Judging lists?

My evidence is hard evidence. It is based on D.N.A. evidence and experts on colour in both the Whippet Club and the Kennel Club.

I realise that this isn't going to change anything but you and the others have dug yourselves in to a deep hole with this issue and would lose face to retract and get out. iIwould like to point out that the burden of proof rest with you , as the accusers, and you have none.

 

Julia

 

& my reply

 

Julia, I am certainly not accusing you of anything & I don't think anyone ever has. It's just good to point out that the evidence isn't as 'hard' or one sided as you'd like people to believe. If the KC did investigate your litter then I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of that. We all know the Whippet Club appointed Mary Lowe to look into it & the KC may have accepted her report, but that is slightly different.

 

Experts all agree that the only 'hard' evidence would be if both parents dna had been made available. Regrettably the opportunity to satisfy people (by repeating a dna test with outside witnesses present to verify the identity of the dogs) wasn't taken. What we have left is circumstantial evidence on both sides. The details have been gone over many times without a resolution. I don't think anyone has dug themselves into a deep hole, there are those who want to move on and those who don't.

 

Nigel
 
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