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DarrenG

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5 weeks ago I had a litter of pups by Sonny all were sold before they were a week old then one pulled but she was easily found another home, in the previous 2 weeks 3 other bitches around the country gave birth to pups by Sonny giving a total of 32 pups ALL of these bar one little black bitch were sold before they were weaned, now heres the question

most of you would never dream of using my dog but were we the irresponsable breeders or are the others irresposable breeders using well known show dogs,? I ask because Sonny pups are obviously what people want yet most on here would probably say hes not a very good example of a whippet but his pups are wanted and easily homed and yet looking on various sites selling pups on the net with statements such as show winning sire/parents their pups their pups are struggling to sell.

Is resposible breeding , producing stock that people want, or is it producing stock that you think people might want?

the chap in question looking very happy with himself (go on some one say he doesnt)

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Your average person just wants a whippet. Price is the factor here.

If I wanted a dog for showing, I'd save my money and buy from lines I found appealing.

If (like I do) race, I'd pick based on winning lines that consistently produce dogs running into veteran careers. i.e. speed AND durability.

If I wanted a pet I'd probably pick from the likes of you, but even so, I would be inclined to look into the breedlines used for disease and longevity. I should add that I would look for the latter 2 factors when choosing any pup.
 
Interesting question you pose Darren. When bitches are brought to Sonny what criteria do you use to decide whether or not you will allow him to be used at stud and have you ever refused a bitch to him. I ask these questions because I think stud dog owners have a huge responsiblity in ensuring the quality of puppies being bred be they from racing, show, or working lines.

Jenny
 
I don't breed dogs but I imagine the ethics involved must cause some people more concern than others. Lots of people love the cute puppy and are happy to buy them at whatever price, but one only has to look at the number of dogs in rescue or on the for sale/swap merry go round to see how wanted some of them really are. What constitutes a 'responsible breeder'? Does it include breeders (both the owners of the brood bitch and stud dog) being willing to take back stock in the future?
 
Irrespective of lines my definition of 'responsible' breeding would be based on how much responsibility the owners of the dam and the sire will take for those 32 pups for the rest of their lives.
 
Hows Lily your Red Bitch ?
 
DarrenG said:
Is resposible breeding , producing stock that people want, or is it producing stock that you think people might want?
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Neither, it's about breeding stock that you want

If this is the case then there simply shouldn't be an issue about taking a puppy back if the home doesn't work out and similarly one should be willing to retain the whole litter if homes cannot be found.

It may well be those that are as Darren says 'struggling to find homes' are just being particular about the homes they want their dogs going to. One could presume that by advertising their dogs from succesful show lines, they're looking for show homes. However if they're looking for pet homes, I would avoid advertising about the breeding, purely because I think it attracts the likes of puppy farmers or naive souls who think they'll have a litter from the pup one day and ride on the coat tails of the progeny's previous successes. Which may already be the case with the litters Darren is mentioning.

The fact is, we don't know the circumstances and agendas of everyone breeding and without this information, one cannot presume they're either responsible or irresponsible. :wacko:
 
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It really does depend on how the pups are reared, the conditions of the place they are kept etc. Plus, are they healthy, plump and good natured. People will pay idiotic prices for pups like the Sharpie cross Dogue de Bordoux litter advertised locally at £1,000.00 each but won't pay for well bred whippet pup.

A lot of people ask too much and then can't sell them. Having paid say £300-00 for their bitch, expect to get the same or more if they breed a litter, seeing it as a nice little earner. I doesn't work like that.

I agree the stud dog owner as well as the breeder has a duty to see the pups have good homes, for life. If you own a stud dog be particular who you allow to use him, don't let anyone use him, it is a mine field breeding.
 
quintessence said:
Interesting question you pose Darren. When bitches are brought to Sonny what criteria do you use to decide whether or not you will allow him to be used at stud and have you ever refused a bitch to him. I ask these questions because I think stud dog owners have a huge responsiblity in ensuring the quality of puppies being bred be they from racing, show, or working lines.
Jenny
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so far every bitch brought to him has been a working bitch and as you know thats all I am interested in really anyway, but if a pet bitch was brought to him, hand on heart, I'd take their money , why because you should try being a roofer in this financial climate and weather
 
wild whippies said:
Your average person just wants a whippet. Price is the factor here.If I wanted a dog for showing, I'd save my money and buy from lines I found appealing.

If (like I do) race, I'd pick based on winning lines that consistently produce dogs running into veteran careers. i.e. speed AND durability.

If I wanted a pet I'd probably pick from the likes of you, but even so, I would be inclined to look into the breedlines used for disease and longevity. I should add that I would look for the latter 2 factors when choosing any pup.
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ALL bar one , well two if you count the puppy that hasnt sold are going to working homes, it seems to have got lost that these pups were ALL sold before they are old enough to leave their dams

And all 4 of us have kept a pup each, and all the bitches owners have been out in the field with Sonny on more than one occassion

As for pups coming back some of you that frequent other sites will know that I recently went and TOOK a yearling back that I had bred and gave the owner the hiding of his life in the pub in front of his mates and brother, and brought the bitch back to health before giving her to a friend

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3 days later

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1 week later

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10 days later

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DarrenG said:
quintessence said:
Interesting question you pose Darren. When bitches are brought to Sonny what criteria do you use to decide whether or not you will allow him to be used at stud and have you ever refused a bitch to him. I ask these questions because I think stud dog owners have a huge responsiblity in ensuring the quality of puppies being bred be they from racing, show, or working lines.
Jenny
Click to expand...
so far every bitch brought to him has been a working bitch and as you know thats all I am interested in really anyway, but if a pet bitch was brought to him, hand on heart, I'd take their money , why because you should try being a roofer in this financial climate and weather
Click to expand...
Thank you for your honesty Darren but I think in a way you have answered your own original question. There are an incredible number of whippet puppies about at the moment and I would imagine many of the litters are bred in order to provide a form of second income. Why would I want to be a roofer, is that not your career choice, my own choice has meant I have endured my own hardships this week, which should historically be my best week of the year, and which in effect has proved a disaster. I would imagine roofers work more in good weather anyway, gift shops owners work more in the run up to Christmas.

That is our choice, just as the type of whippet we use at stud is our choice. I have never let my dogs be used at stud, why would I, unless I myself wanted a puppy by them.
 
quintessence said:
DarrenG said:
quintessence said:
Interesting question you pose Darren. When bitches are brought to Sonny what criteria do you use to decide whether or not you will allow him to be used at stud and have you ever refused a bitch to him. I ask these questions because I think stud dog owners have a huge responsiblity in ensuring the quality of puppies being bred be they from racing, show, or working lines.
Jenny
Click to expand...
so far every bitch brought to him has been a working bitch and as you know thats all I am interested in really anyway, but if a pet bitch was brought to him, hand on heart, I'd take their money , why because you should try being a roofer in this financial climate and weather
Click to expand...
Thank you for your honesty Darren but I think in a way you have answered your own original question. There are an incredible number of whippet puppies about at the moment and I would imagine many of the litters are bred in order to provide a form of second income. Why would I want to be a roofer, is that not your career choice, my own choice has meant I have endured my own hardships this week, which should historically be my best week of the year, and which in effect has proved a disaster. I would imagine roofers work more in good weather anyway, gift shops owners work more in the run up to Christmas.

That is our choice, just as the type of whippet we use at stud is our choice. I have never let my dogs be used at stud, why would I, unless I myself wanted a puppy by them.
Click to expand...

Good post Jenny,

Its a shame DarrenG would use his stud dog to aid his income . We all have problems but adding to the already over crowded whippet market just for money IMO is bad news
 
JAX said:
quintessence said:
DarrenG said:
quintessence said:
Interesting question you pose Darren. When bitches are brought to Sonny what criteria do you use to decide whether or not you will allow him to be used at stud and have you ever refused a bitch to him. I ask these questions because I think stud dog owners have a huge responsiblity in ensuring the quality of puppies being bred be they from racing, show, or working lines.
Jenny
Click to expand...
so far every bitch brought to him has been a working bitch and as you know thats all I am interested in really anyway, but if a pet bitch was brought to him, hand on heart, I'd take their money , why because you should try being a roofer in this financial climate and weather
Click to expand...
Thank you for your honesty Darren but I think in a way you have answered your own original question. There are an incredible number of whippet puppies about at the moment and I would imagine many of the litters are bred in order to provide a form of second income. Why would I want to be a roofer, is that not your career choice, my own choice has meant I have endured my own hardships this week, which should historically be my best week of the year, and which in effect has proved a disaster. I would imagine roofers work more in good weather anyway, gift shops owners work more in the run up to Christmas.

That is our choice, just as the type of whippet we use at stud is our choice. I have never let my dogs be used at stud, why would I, unless I myself wanted a puppy by them.
Click to expand...

Good post Jenny,

Its a shame DarrenG would use his stud dog to aid his income . We all have problems but adding to the already over crowded whippet market just for money IMO is bad news
Click to expand...
its a shame is it? So why are pups from show homes worth more?why should someone get more income from their pups just because they are show pups?

Why does everyone miss the fact that 27 out of 32 pups were SOLD before weaning plus the four kept back by the four of ourselves?Sonny pups sell because of how well he works in the field, and incidently I had 2 pups as stud fees and gave them both to friends.As for the pups most were sold for £450 was that too cheap then?

Are you saying then that NO ONE should allow their dog to be used unless they want a pup for themselves and are you saying even though it appears that people want puppies sired by Sonny I shouldnt allow him to be used whilst there is a recession in the construction industry?

I also see that all of a sudden the arguement about looking out for pups you have bred has been forgotten about, or is it balls cant make out Gallaghers an evil bastard with his dogs now?
 
just wondering how long before this thread gets removed or I get reported again :wacko:
 
Just as a matter of interest, what is Sonny's stud fee. There is a reason for this question by the way. I'll tell you when you answer my query! :))
 
I don't really see how many of the puppies were sold quickly is relevant to anything at all, surely the quality of the homes they are going to is more important than how quickly they sell?

Good on you for taking back that poor little bitch, you did a great job turning her round, but it shows how hard it is to make sure pups end up in good homes - especially 32 of them :unsure:

We'll have to agree to differ over the rights and wrongs of breeding for money. I run a rescue and am day in day out dealing with the consequences of too many dogs bred and too few good homes for them to go to, so you can guess my views.
 
DarrenG said:
JAX said:
quintessence said:
DarrenG said:
quintessence said:
Interesting question you pose Darren. When bitches are brought to Sonny what criteria do you use to decide whether or not you will allow him to be used at stud and have you ever refused a bitch to him. I ask these questions because I think stud dog owners have a huge responsiblity in ensuring the quality of puppies being bred be they from racing, show, or working lines.
Jenny
Click to expand...
so far every bitch brought to him has been a working bitch and as you know thats all I am interested in really anyway, but if a pet bitch was brought to him, hand on heart, I'd take their money , why because you should try being a roofer in this financial climate and weather
Click to expand...
Thank you for your honesty Darren but I think in a way you have answered your own original question. There are an incredible number of whippet puppies about at the moment and I would imagine many of the litters are bred in order to provide a form of second income. Why would I want to be a roofer, is that not your career choice, my own choice has meant I have endured my own hardships this week, which should historically be my best week of the year, and which in effect has proved a disaster. I would imagine roofers work more in good weather anyway, gift shops owners work more in the run up to Christmas.

That is our choice, just as the type of whippet we use at stud is our choice. I have never let my dogs be used at stud, why would I, unless I myself wanted a puppy by them.
Click to expand...

Good post Jenny,

Its a shame DarrenG would use his stud dog to aid his income . We all have problems but adding to the already over crowded whippet market just for money IMO is bad news
Click to expand...
its a shame is it? So why are pups from show homes worth more?why should someone get more income from their pups just because they are show pups?

Why does everyone miss the fact that 27 out of 32 pups were SOLD before weaning plus the four kept back by the four of ourselves?Sonny pups sell because of how well he works in the field, and incidently I had 2 pups as stud fees and gave them both to friends.As for the pups most were sold for £450 was that too cheap then?

Are you saying then that NO ONE should allow their dog to be used unless they want a pup for themselves and are you saying even though it appears that people want puppies sired by Sonny I shouldnt allow him to be used whilst there is a recession in the construction industry?

I also see that all of a sudden the arguement about looking out for pups you have bred has been forgotten about, or is it balls cant make out Gallaghers an evil bastard with his dogs now?
Click to expand...

Why oh why do you get so defensive Darren. I have looked at Sonny's pedigree and he is a well bred dog from show lines, indeed lines I would be proud to own. Why do you say he is not a good show specimen, to me he looks a nice type of dog who would not look out of place in the show ring, indeed I would like to see a photo of him in show stance. To me you have struck gold Darren, a nicely bred whippet of good type, a proven worker and siring sought after puppies, why are you not just grateful for what you have.

I can't say whether £450 is cheap for a puppy, personally I would say it was probably just about right. Neither would I have the audacity to tell you whether or nor you should allow Sonny to be used at stud that is your prerogative, recession or no recession. What I do know, however, is that breeding of puppies has to be tightened up and I have no doubt it will be in the coming years.

Jenny
 
It's easy enough to get homes for pups , everyone wants pups and everyone has good intentions but how many of these pups will be in the same home at the end of their life ie 14 or 15 years . Not many judging by the number of adults looking for homes :(

I personally have never and would never breed a dog becuse the chances of me finding a home I would consider suitable for even one pup would be extremely remote .
 
I get defensive Jenny because this site makes you so, all the things I have been accussed of and called on here it makes me like it, you will see I am not defensive anywhere else on the net

basically I am proud because people do want Sonny pups yet because I have bred 2 litters from non shown dogs I have been classed as a peddler, and unlike a lot of people on here I have been honest and said YES at this moment in time I would take money for a stud, but apparently now because I made the choice to be a roofer many years ago and construction is dead at the moment its insinuated I am not thinking of whippets.

Another question so do you all think we should have used a show winner over our bitches instead of Sonny? And do you think everyone is wrong for wanting sonny pups for working, and is it wrong that they were sold without having to advertise them openly?

I take it then that some people think it is wrong to use a stud dog that people want puppies from and that they should only buy from show homes?
 
DarrenG said:
I get defensive Jenny because this site makes you so, all the things I have been accussed of and called on here it makes me like it, you will see I am not defensive anywhere else on the net
basically I am proud because people do want Sonny pups yet because I have bred 2 litters from non shown dogs I have been classed as a peddler, and unlike a lot of people on here I have been honest and said YES at this moment in time I would take money for a stud, but apparently now because I made the choice to be a roofer many years ago and construction is dead at the moment its insinuated I am not thinking of whippets.

Another question so do you all think we should have used a show winner over our bitches instead of Sonny? And do you think everyone is wrong for wanting sonny pups for working, and is it wrong that they were sold without having to advertise them openly?

I take it then that some people think it is wrong to use a stud dog that people want puppies from and that they should only buy from show homes?
Click to expand...
Ignoring all that Darren!!!!!!! Can you answer the question I asked a bit back on your topic!!!! ????

People will buy from where they like Darren. Puppy farmers, people who only breed for money not to further the quality or working ability, show quality of whippets. As long as they look like a whippet it doesn't seem to matter to these people. I have seen some dreadful pups bought from these people, helped re-home them when things go wrong and they can't cope.

At least you do make sure your pups sired by Sonny are homed properly.

B :cheers:
 
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