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Border Collie Aggression - Any Advice?

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weims

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Hi, Hope someone can offer advice.

I have a friend who bought a BC puppy, he is now just over 12 months old.

She has had problems with him since day 1 and has not heeded any advice I have

given her. She had a baby within 5 months of getting the dog so although he gets walks

he doesnt get all the mental stimulation that a BC needs. She moved house and he started

being nervous, hiding and generally scared of everything.

Then about a month or so ago she had him castrated "to calm him down". I told her that

it was unlikely to work and it appears it hasnt. I know it can take a while but I suspect that it

wont make any difference.

She rang last night to say he had snapped at her when she was petting and giving a treat to next

doors dog over the fence and then again at her boyfriend when he was sat on floor, trying to make the dog

laydown, the dog refused so he got hold of the collar to make him and he snapped at him,

Now I think the dog is trying to be dominant and showing them that he wont do as he says, they have to

do as he says?? I got to this conclusion from other things she has said that he does and leads me to believe that

this is the problem. Trouble is I am not sure how to tell them to deal with it.

I have said that she shouldnt have got the dog at all especially not a BC as she doesnt have the time to

mentally stimulate him, I think thats why he is hyper. She also wont take advice on the food she feeds.

Practically how can she reverse the dominance in the dog?

Thanks Lynn
 
My sister also has a very dominant border collie, and sadly she has also started to show aggression to humans. If she wont heed the advice you give her, or consult a professional, then there's not much she can do. Border collies need a lot of mental and physical stimulation. Does she take him to agility or do activities with him? Maybe it would be beneficial if she did. that and seek professional advice, it could get a lot more serious than just a snap, and she shouldn't take the chance. If she doesn't stimulate him, things will only escalate. The dog is probably very frustrated. BC's are very clever dogs, and when they aren't worked with they go a bit stir crazy. If shes not prepared to work with him and give him the time he needs, then she should probably look into rehoming him.

Making the dog lie down by force is bound to not help, and i'm sure if someone tried to force him down by the neck, he'd feel threatened too. He will need time to settle into his new environment, he's obviously scared and confused. Time and patience is the key. :)

- Hannah.
 
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Hi, No she doesnt do anything with the dog and I realise that they are very intelligent dogs who needs lots of mental stimulation as well as physical exercise but I have told her until I am blue in the face :(

She has a 7 month old baby and her partner works full time so she doesnt have the time not (I suspect) the inclination to do agility or anything like that with him.

They have been in the "new house" for about 4 months now. She thinks he is scared of fireworks and thats what has set off this behaviour, I think it may be a factor but isnt the full cause of the snapping that is now occuring.

She has "babied" him and he has run rings around her since he arrived. He was snapping as a puppy, as puppies do, but although I told her her to deal with it she didnt. She is one of these people who think that the dog "will grow out of it". I have told her that dogs need to be taught how to behave but to no avail. She keeps on coming to me for advice but frustratingly never takes it and utilise it. She had him castrated b ecause she thought it would sort him out.... but it didnt :(

I know the problem but not how to solve it. She would have been better off with a dog that is more laid back than an active intelligent dog... I know!!! I have said since the day she got him that he will end up being rehomed but I cant say that to her :(

:( :(
 
I know you said that your friend won't take advice on the food, but do you know what food she's currently feeding her BC? It won't be a miracle cure, but as a cross-BC owner I noticed some quite major changes (in terms of being hyperactive) from swapping foods.
 
I havent actually asked her, but I am assuming it will be a "supermarket" one.... bakers probably :(
 
If you can find out that'd be good. Also I've asked some other BC owners to come and check this question out, so hopefully they'll join up and post a reply :)
 
This is a situation that really needs a behaviourist who understands Border Collies and can come along and look at all the aspects of the dogs life including exercise, diet etc. I wouldn't say the dogs behaviour is related to "dominance" collies are very sensitive and rely on a routine and consistency. Many are given too much inappropriate exercise in our experience and it needs to be balanced between mental and physical exercise.

They really do need to take action now, the dog has already demonstrated his dislike of the hands on approach and it's just a matter of time before he bites someone. Trying to rehome him as he is will now be difficult
 
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If she does end up rehoming him she should contact a border collie rescue who could hopefully get him a home with people who understand the breed .
 
weims said:
Hi, No she doesnt do anything with the dog and I realise that they are very intelligent dogs who needs lots of mental stimulation as well as physical exercise but I have told her until I am blue in the face :(

She has a 7 month old baby and her partner works full time so she doesnt have the time not (I suspect) the inclination to do agility or anything like that with him.

They have been in the "new house" for about 4 months now. She thinks he is scared of fireworks and thats what has set off this behaviour, I think it may be a factor but isnt the full cause of the snapping that is now occuring.

She has "babied" him and he has run rings around her since he arrived. He was snapping as a puppy, as puppies do, but although I told her her to deal with it she didnt. She is one of these people who think that the dog "will grow out of it". I have told her that dogs need to be taught how to behave but to no avail. She keeps on coming to me for advice but frustratingly never takes it and utilise it. She had him castrated b ecause she thought it would sort him out.... but it didnt :(

I know the problem but not how to solve it. She would have been better off with a dog that is more laid back than an active intelligent dog... I know!!! I have said since the day she got him that he will end up being rehomed but I cant say that to her :(

:( :(
Click to expand...
Its a sad situation when any dog ends up like this. she could try changing the brand of food, but I doubt that would make much difference to the aggression. he needs someone who understands the breed.

it must be hard to watch this, I understand where you're coming from. You're doing the right thing. :flowers:
 
bordercollietrustgb said:
This is a situation that really needs a behaviourist who understands Border Collies and can come along and look at all the aspects of the dogs life including exercise, diet etc. I wouldn't say the dogs behaviour is related to "dominance" collies are very sensitive and rely on a routine and consistency. Many are given too much inappropriate exercise in our experience and it needs to be balanced between mental and physical exercise.

They really do need to take action now, the dog has already demonstrated his dislike of the hands on approach and it's just a matter of time before he bites someone. Trying to rehome him as he is will now be difficult
Click to expand...
Hi Ben, many thanks for registering - it's great to see you guys on here :)
 
Oh dear, this situation sounds so sad for the poor lad who hasn't been given any outlet for his energy and brain power.

As well as the food, lack of focus, lack of training etc, there's also the possibility that he wasn't actually trying to bite at all. Biting and nipping are two completely different things behaviourally for the dog, especially a herding breed. Nipping is a natural part of the herding instinct and even if she brings in a behaviourist then that may not change the nipping at all. Obviously the behaviour must be seen in context of a whole load of other things to determine whether the dog was playing, nipping, biting because he felt threatened or biting for another reason.

This sounds very much like a 'perfect storm' of problems, all of which fail the dog to be honest. I work with both rescue GSDs and cats and we stress again and again that puppies, kittens and babies DO NOT MIX WELL, but there are people who just seem to think that they know better and of course they can make it work. To be honest, if the dog is uncontrolled around the adults then it may be the best outcome for all of them that he is rehomed with someone who knows what they are doing before he can be accused of snapping at the baby and put to sleep (sadly this is something I've seen on a regular basis too).

When will people get it through their heads? Puppies are babies and you can shout 'sit' at them as often as you like, but if they don't understand what you want them to do, or they think of another game that's better, or they don't see why they should do what you ask, then they aren't likely to do it. For commands to work the dog needs to understand what you're asking of them and it needs to be something that they feel positive about. They don't come out of the box knowing all the instructions any more than human babies do- and how long do human babies take to become toilet trained compared to how quickly puppies learn?

I'm afraid to say that I agree with you that if the owner is not prepared to start changing things around the dog, to train him properly and with loads of good rewards, to give him the challenges to make him regularly tired and calm and with something to look forward to then the bad behaviour is likely to continue and the logical outcome of this is that he will end up being put to sleep unless a rehoming space can be found in a rescue. Please do what you can to make sure that if your friend makes noises about rescue then she finds appropriate and relevant BC specialist rescue numbers in her hand, because if a dog that is known to bite ends up in a load of standard rescues then he won't come back out at the other end.

I've no doubt that he has issues as a result of this, but 99.9% of issues can be vastly improved just by someone who knows what they are doing with breed specific training.
 
I have passed on details of behaviourists, and although I am not a specialist in BC's I do have vast experience of weimaraners and worked rehoming them for over 10 years and have been a dog owner for over 40 years. The lady in question has virtually no experience of owning a dog as she has only just got together with the babies dad and got her first home, they lost a little girl tragically and then got the dog I think as a comfort to help them get over the loss of the little girl and this situation would never work. I pleaded with her not to get a BC but the cute fluffy puppy got the better of her. I would never in million years have sold her a puppy that needed so much input as at the time she was working full time and her partner was in the army :(

All I can do now is pass on information, I have sent her a link to APDT and I have a KC rescue directory if it comes to that but I know where you are coming from with regards to rehoming, but I cant MAKE her.... and I dont think she is ready to admit defeat :(

I know with weimaraner rescue we would rehome a dog that had bitten but it would depend heavily on the reason .....
 
Is there anyone knowledgeable in border collies close to Pontefract West Yorkshire that could help here... pls??
 
Someone from the BC Rescue is signing up here, they might help point you in the right direction, not necessarily for a rehome (as you said your friend might not be interested) but they might have some contacts in that area?
 
Such a sad situation for everyone involved. Hopefully for the sake of her child, she will re-home that dog to a much more suitable home with training and activities more suited to it's needs. Shame she bought the dog in the first place, really.
 
TTT said:
Such a sad situation for everyone involved. Hopefully for the sake of her child, she will re-home that dog to a much more suitable home with training and activities more suited to it's needs. Shame she bought the dog in the first place, really.
Click to expand...
Have to agree with the above. I took in a BC who had been taken to the vet to pts aged 14 months for exactly the same `crime`. You can`t bully colies. You have to allow them to be the dogs they were bred to be.

I suggest she rehome him on Agilitynet or such.
 
Very sad...ideally, the owner would find a good reward-based trainer and start following a "learn-to-earn" type programme to build a positive relationship, gain some understanding of the dogs basic needs and start some activities to use up the dogs mental and physical energy. However, the inactivity so far suggests that the owner isn't prepared to put the necessary time and effort into this approach. Sadly, as a trainer and behaviourist, I see many people who only want a quick fix and aren't prepared to put any long-term effort into the problems they have caused in their dogs. I would suggest that the dog would be better off being responsibly re-homed to someone who understands BCs and can give the dog the guidance, time and commitment that it requires.
 
ClaireandDaisy said:
TTT said:
Such a sad situation for everyone involved. Hopefully for the sake of her child, she will re-home that dog to a much more suitable home with training and activities more suited to it's needs. Shame she bought the dog in the first place, really.
Click to expand...
Have to agree with the above. I took in a BC who had been taken to the vet to pts aged 14 months for exactly the same `crime`. You can`t bully colies. You have to allow them to be the dogs they were bred to be.

I suggest she rehome him on Agilitynet or such.
Click to expand...
It really is such a shame that people get a dog that they like the 'look of' rather than researching the reality of owning that type. If most people took a step back and thought about the commitment that owning a dog requires - they would not bother owning one, they would realize that they don't have the time, money, space, patience, ongoing interest or dedication to do it - they would be better off buying a calendar with a photo of a dog on it........and admiring that!
 
eingana said:
Oh dear, this situation sounds so sad for the poor lad who hasn't been given any outlet for his energy and brain power.

As well as the food, lack of focus, lack of training etc, there's also the possibility that he wasn't actually trying to bite at all. Biting and nipping are two completely different things behaviourally for the dog, especially a herding breed. Nipping is a natural part of the herding instinct and even if she brings in a behaviourist then that may not change the nipping at all. Obviously the behaviour must be seen in context of a whole load of other things to determine whether the dog was playing, nipping, biting because he felt threatened or biting for another reason.

This sounds very much like a 'perfect storm' of problems, all of which fail the dog to be honest. I work with both rescue GSDs and cats and we stress again and again that puppies, kittens and babies DO NOT MIX WELL, but there are people who just seem to think that they know better and of course they can make it work. To be honest, if the dog is uncontrolled around the adults then it may be the best outcome for all of them that he is rehomed with someone who knows what they are doing before he can be accused of snapping at the baby and put to sleep (sadly this is something I've seen on a regular basis too).

When will people get it through their heads? Puppies are babies and you can shout 'sit' at them as often as you like, but if they don't understand what you want them to do, or they think of another game that's better, or they don't see why they should do what you ask, then they aren't likely to do it. For commands to work the dog needs to understand what you're asking of them and it needs to be something that they feel positive about. They don't come out of the box knowing all the instructions any more than human babies do- and how long do human babies take to become toilet trained compared to how quickly puppies learn?

I'm afraid to say that I agree with you that if the owner is not prepared to start changing things around the dog, to train him properly and with loads of good rewards, to give him the challenges to make him regularly tired and calm and with something to look forward to then the bad behaviour is likely to continue and the logical outcome of this is that he will end up being put to sleep unless a rehoming space can be found in a rescue. Please do what you can to make sure that if your friend makes noises about rescue then she finds appropriate and relevant BC specialist rescue numbers in her hand, because if a dog that is known to bite ends up in a load of standard rescues then he won't come back out at the other end.

I've no doubt that he has issues as a result of this, but 99.9% of issues can be vastly improved just by someone who knows what they are doing with breed specific training.
Click to expand...
As a BC owner for over 49 years....can I say this post is excellent. Chances are the dog is not trying to be dominant at all....BC's need stimulation both mentally and physically, and the need to snap will definately be more stress than dominance. BC work better with direction and a calm approach both in training and rewards, trying to get the dog to lie down was more than likely putting the dog in a worrying position due to the owners OH being sat on the floor and taking hold of the collar.

I have owned nothing but BC's and Terriers and both breeds are intelligent active dogs, with an active brain...BC's can have a over active brain at times, this can to be directed in a job for the dog to do. Hide and seek, fetch a toy, teach to count (my male counts with his foot) help with carrying the pegs....anything that they feel useful and needed...BC's bloom. I hope she gets it sorted
 
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