For or against dominance in dogs

A hard topic to comment on as i find each dog is different and therefore difficult to generalise as to how to approach this subject.

some dogs need a firmer hand weather that be due to age, background, breed/temperament etc others have a more placid nature and are more compliant naturally. Sometimes i find it's more down to the owner though than the dog, clear commands, and routine give a dog guidelines with which to live by , cohabiting with ease within our world, if a dog is left to it's own devices without guidance and intervention then it gets confused as its unsure of the expectations placed upon it, then we get owners who do too little too late and can't control/guide the dog to live within parameters we can accept .

A dog who shows a dominant streak therefore is just a dog full of character who needs closer guidance, but this needs to start at a very young age so it understands what is expected of it, unfortunately some dog owners have little experience and fail to act upon this crucial time of guidance and there in lies many an issue.

A dog , like a child is a blank canvass and as such will learn from its environment and others around it, a dog is the making of its owner, put in the time and effort and you should get a great grounded member of the family.

I have thoughts but no time to share at the moment, however I wanted to check that you had his permission to cross post his reply to you onto another board. It's a really interesting point but I wouldn't want any offence caused if he didn't give his permission for his words to be posted elsewhere even if he is credited properly.

chelynnah said:

I have thoughts but no time to share at the moment, however I wanted to check that you had his permission to cross post his reply to you onto another board. It's a really interesting point but I wouldn't want any offence caused if he didn't give his permission for his words to be posted elsewhere even if he is credited properly.

Click to expand...

Best wishes

Shaun

PS. Please forward this message on to anyone you know who will find it useful. If this e-mail has been forwarded to you, why not sign up and get the rest of this FREE series

Great thanks. I'm away for the weekend so just checking in on the iPhone. I'll weigh in when I'm home. Could be an interesting discussion for all points of views

i agree with andrea; it is a hard subject to be definite about. I reckon dominance exists in dogs, and i'm going to say submissiveness too, as its opposite (as these are common terms, and to put it out there), i think they are present in differing amounts, in many different aspects of their character. But i'm not totally happy with them as a definite kind of description, i reckon their are more subtleties at work. And i don't like the connotations of good dog-bad dog. Its a human character trait, so im not happy with it as good description of whats going on with dogs.

Dogs do what works for them, and if something that us humans decribe as dominance works for them then, they'll carry on. It is an interesting subject, and it is very interesting to watch a group of dogs together, and see their different characters and behaviours. A kind of pecking order, or agreement as to behaviour is acheived, dogs are naturally there to be friends, so the dominant ones and the submissive ones kind of balance things out. (ooh like yin and yang, kulamamatata )

My dog can be a bit of a domineering fellow, he likes to chase and play quite roughly, and i have to watch who he is choosing to play with because some of the dogs won't tell him off, and he gets all big for his boots and won't stop. But in other aspects he can be very submissive. He lets his best friend walk all over him, and bite his face ears tail feet etc, without complaint. The dog that is most not up for playing with him, and hates it if he runs at her, or even leaps around in her presence, is allowed to pinch his food, something he wouldn't let the others do, ever.

He does do some of the classic things that people say show a dominant character, but i kind of think why the hell not, i just laugh at him or tell him to stop if its being annoying. When i got him he was fairly inanimate, so its a pleasure to see him interacting at all. The fact that dogs are trainable shows they are willing to give up their dominant bits, after a bit of wrangling, or a trade off, or luckily, repetition of desirable behaviour.

The rolling thing, my dog dude, did come back the other day with mousegut warpaint on his cheeks, actually looked rather good i thought, its interesting to hear that explained like this...

I'm not a huge fan of the whole dominance model, but on the same front my breed is one of the ones that do well with very rigid rules and a strict hierarchy in their homes and most of the dogs that come into rescue as older pups come in because they have got far too big for their boots and become an 'uncontrollable' or 'dangerous' teenager.

Because of this we generally say that if you have a GSD and you aren't the boss in the home then the dog is likely to try to be the boss, and GSDs don't make good bosses (as well as generally making the dog pretty unhappy and insecure).

That's not the same as saying that you should dominate your dog, but the borderline between being 'dominant' and being an assertive owner with consistently applied strong rules is very fine in a lot of circumstances.

The bigger and more intelligent the dog, the more dangerous they can be when they don't grow up with knowing the rules in their pack and knowing things like bite inhibition, delayed gratification and basic manners. Training can be done in a positive model, but all training has a negative side (even if that negative is the withdrawal of a treat or praise, that's still a negative) and by imposition that negative you're showing your dog that you have the right to do that. Some people would call that dominating your dog...

Always a rather touchy subject this one but I think that may be part of the problem.

There is no doubt that Shaun Ellis is an expert in his field and he has a unique insight and understanding of the animals he has studied that very few people will ever match. Dominance and submission are well documented and accepted in wild wolf packs and it naturally follows that with their close genetics and relatively short evolutionary history domestic dogs will posses the same instincts and characteristics.

This however, is where the water starts to get a little muddied. Firstly the terminology itself is misleading, dominance and submission in human terms gives the perception of a forced relationship, one party forcing their will or desire on another party with the other party having no choice but to comply, but this is far from what happens is a wolf pack. A wolf pack co-operates willingly for the benefit of all of its members, each individual has a role to play and a job to do in order for the pack to survive and prosper. The hierachy exists to protect the pack but it is seldom enforced physically, each individual wolves job is to survive, so fighting amongst themselves is hardly productive.

Secondly I think that the biggest mistake people make is to believe that once a dog comes into their home that they have a pack and that the dog is looking for that hierachy system or is trying to influence it some way so as to improve their own position in it. Dogs are not stupid and their instincts are not fooled so easily, they know that people are not dogs and they do not treat them as such. When people try to be the 'pack leader' or try to physically dominate their dogs they become confused and don't know what to do, so one behaviour soon replaces the other as they try to work out what is going on.

The instinct is there, but in a domestic dog it is never fully realised (unless they are living with several other dogs) because it is a relationship between animals of the same species. People can live and work perfectly well with their dogs by developing their own relationship based on trust and understanding of the individual animals character, but as soon as they start to blame behaviours on the dog trying to take over, rather than on the dogs natural instinct or personal character, then they are going to

have problems.

My dog likes to sleep on the end of my bed, against the back of my legs. Some people wouldn't allow this because it lets the dog think that he is my equal and that he will not respect me if I do not force him off. I happen to know that he sleeps there because not only does he prefer to be near to me (sleeps elsewhere when I work nights) but also because it is warmer and more comfortable than the floor.