Tilly the collie.

Hello everyone and many thanks for this forum and its members within. Fiona, and myself, really do need some very serious help and, in total honesty, that is why I found this website and am here. We are both really hoping and praying someone, somewhere, in the UK can help us. Tilly the collie. Guys, I am so not good at this so please bear with. My name is John by the way, 67 y/o and Fiona 55 y/o. We lost our so loved collie in November last year, Floss. Heartbreaking. She left a massive hole in the entire family, 2 boys 17 and 19 and a Jack Russell called Meg. We were beside ourselves trying to cope with the massive void and so...almost immediately went into Cornwall and bought another collie, who we called Tilly, from a farm. She had been raised in a very messy and rather disfunctional barn, in all honesty. There were cattle, horses, Tilly and her two male siblings and their most adorable Mum. Guys, it was pitch black and a total mess. We should have walked away. Look, however, we chose Tilly, the girl and came home. Yes, she was by now 12 weeks old. For your information / help, in the barn the now 12 w/o pups were honestly stir crazy...charging around everywhere like fruitcakes, honestly. Trying to keep you all in the frame here. Ok, and so we arrived home. Tilly, well, we immediately became aware had very very serious social issues and so we enrolled her into classes. Two courses both of which she came out top, no less. The instructors told us what a very highly intelligent dog...BUT. She has massive issues. She has fear aggression. It is massive and it is an absolute crying shame as we are now at our wits end. We are spending an absolute fortune on a local dog psychology person and doing absolutely everything we can think of and yet, it is not good. She has this aggression. Postman, neighbours, tractors, trailers, people, animals, you name it and she has it. YET, we have had collies for some 30 odd years and our Tilly is the one that stands out for being so absolutely full of love, affection and intelligence. Hey, she goes out into the yard and brings in the duck eggs even, she is crazy (after she has had one). We realise we cannot rehome her and therefore equally realise our only respite will be to have her euthanased and this is tearing us apart. It is NOT her fault, it is the fault of the farmer who kept her locked in a pitch black barn for 12 weeks with no social contact. There is so much more, you might well imagine...please can someone just help us as we love her so very very much. Thank you all so very much and we really are hoping and praying that just somewhere an expert might be able to help us...we really and honestly do need it. Thank you guys. John and Fiona.

Welcome to the forum - though I'm sorry it's such a serious problem that brought you here! I'm certainly not an expert - I'm going to tag @JacksDad because he may be able to help.

A few questions though:

Could you describe her normal day? Where she sleeps, what she eats (brand and variety), what her walks are like and how long they are, what training/games you do with her during the day...

Is she ever reactive with you, your boys and your other dogs?

Does she have a 'safe space'/den in your house where she is happy to relax away from anything else that might be going on? (This can be a good place for her to have as a refuge if, say, you have visitors round.)

How easy would it be for you to arrange her life/walks so she didn't come close to other people, dogs, trucks, etc.? The first step with reactivity is usually to remove ALL the things that cause the stress, then, when you can start with a more relaxed dog, introduce her, very gradually, at a distance/intensity she can cope with. There's some more in reactivity here: Dog Reactivity

JudyN said:

Welcome to the forum - though I'm sorry it's such a serious problem that brought you here! I'm certainly not an expert - I'm going to tag @JacksDad because he may be able to help.

A few questions though:

Could you describe her normal day? Where she sleeps, what she eats (brand and variety), what her walks are like and how long they are, what training/games you do with her during the day...

Is she ever reactive with you, your boys and your other dogs?

Does she have a 'safe space'/den in your house where she is happy to relax away from anything else that might be going on? (This can be a good place for her to have as a refuge if, say, you have visitors round.)

How easy would it be for you to arrange her life/walks so she didn't come close to other people, dogs, trucks, etc.? The first step with reactivity is usually to remove ALL the things that cause the stress, then, when you can start with a more relaxed dog, introduce her, very gradually, at a distance/intensity she can cope with. There's some more in reactivity here: Dog Reactivity

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Hi Judy and so many thanks for getting back to us all.

I will try my best to work through your questions.

Well, she sleeps in our bedroom and has her own bed at the side of ours. Invariably I awake to Tilly being betwixt Fiona and myself!!! Not entirely sure I approve of this and yet, in absolute honesty it would appear to be the way it has evolved. When we both (Fiona and myself) awake Tilly is just so massively full of love and dog snogs it is unreal and something I have never ever known in a dog before. It is like she so completely loves us and is so grateful, almost, to be a part of us. You have to see it to believe it...again, not too sure it is something I am happy with and yet something I go along with for the peace??? Fiona has her on Forthglade both wet and dry ( a combination). She has an hours walk / play in the fields in the morning and an hours walk and play in the afternoon when Fiona comes home from school (where she works)...I am not, sadly, in the very best of health. We have a humungous garden and bought all relevant agility stuff and yet, so called experts told us not to use them until she is 12 months old and now, our land is, like everywhere, a quagmire! She has a massive den, well, the very biggest cage you can buy from Mole Valley Farmers and..."sometimes" goes there for time out though seldom. Our other dog, the Jack Russell Meg is highly strung and yaps at anything, the very least little noise, which sets Tilly off and this, honestly, can take us a good ten or fifteen minutes to difuse. She loves the boys to bits and is really rather social with them...if often verbal. (Having said that...the eldest lad was away to Uni in September). The youngest lad Marcus helps us greatly with her as he knows we are at breaking point. Yes, we live right on the country edge of a tiny edge of a village so we absolutely could arrange our walks without social interaction but...would she ever get better? People around? We are unable, it is impossible. We had the chimney sweep around a month ago and we had to lock her into a bedroom. She goes nuts. Judy, thank you so completely for trying to help us.

John and Fiona said:

Hi Judy and so many thanks for getting back to us all.

I will try my best to work through your questions.

Well, she sleeps in our bedroom and has her own bed at the side of ours. Invariably I awake to Tilly being betwixt Fiona and myself!!! Not entirely sure I approve of this and yet, in absolute honesty it would appear to be the way it has evolved. When we both (Fiona and myself) awake Tilly is just so massively full of love and dog snogs it is unreal and something I have never ever known in a dog before. It is like she so completely loves us and is so grateful, almost, to be a part of us. You have to see it to believe it...again, not too sure it is something I am happy with and yet something I go along with for the peace??? Fiona has her on Forthglade both wet and dry ( a combination). She has an hours walk / play in the fields in the morning and an hours walk and play in the afternoon when Fiona comes home from school (where she works)...I am not, sadly, in the very best of health. We have a humungous garden and bought all relevant agility stuff and yet, so called experts told us not to use them until she is 12 months old and now, our land is, like everywhere, a quagmire! She has a massive den, well, the very biggest cage you can buy from Mole Valley Farmers and..."sometimes" goes there for time out though seldom. Our other dog, the Jack Russell Meg is highly strung and yaps at anything, the very least little noise, which sets Tilly off and this, honestly, can take us a good ten or fifteen minutes to difuse. She loves the boys to bits and is really rather social with them...if often verbal. (Having said that...the eldest lad was away to Uni in September). The youngest lad Marcus helps us greatly with her as he knows we are at breaking point. Yes, we live right on the country edge of a tiny edge of a village so we absolutely could arrange our walks without social interaction but...would she ever get better? People around? We are unable, it is impossible. We had the chimney sweep around a month ago and we had to lock her into a bedroom. She goes nuts. Judy, thank you so completely for trying to help us.

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Judy, if this helps...when she has been aggressive she is so apologetic it is unreal. You have to see this to believe it. In a doggy way it is like..."I am sorry, I am so sorry, really sorry, please forgive me, please know I love you...snog snog snog snog snog" It is embarrassing. She really really wants to be good, you can tell. A blind man can see this. This is, well, a big part of why we love her so much and why we are completely heartbroken. My wife, Fiona, is literally in tatters with it. You know, we are hopefully good folk and are doing absolutely all we can think of and yet, it is very heavy going and truly heartbreaking. I am even so sorry to burden you all with it. If I thought she was a no-hoper then I hope I would have the strength to do what needed to be done and yet she really and truly is a beautiful lass. I got my first collie in 1977 so please try and understand this...she is a good lass inside. Thank you so much Judy and to anyone else who might just be able to help us. I promise you Tilly is worth it, not through any amount of doggy sentiment. Thank you guys.

Oh don't feel bad about burdening us! You are quite obviously wonderful folk, doing all you can - and I get totally that she is a good, loving dog with SO much to offer. My dog is a little 'special' too, so I know just what you mean.

You asked if she would ever get better if you avoided all interactions - yes, she can. Take my fear of spiders - if I had spiders of various sizes repeatedly thrown at me, and I couldn't control it, I'd be a complete mess, and I'd only have to see a bit of black thread for me to go AAAAARRGGGGHHHHH!!!! all over again, and then AAAAAARRRRGGGHHH!!! at the tiniest money spider that once wouldn't have bothered me. Now, take me out to a spider-free zone, where I feel safe... After a while (days/weeks/months), I'll be calm and able to think straight. Then, introduce me to a tiny money spider at the far side of the room, but giving me a way to leave the room, and I'll probably be fine and calm. And when I realise that, actually, I'm OK with those, I can very gradually be introduced to slightly bigger spiders, slightly close up... but stick a big one to close to me at this stage, and I'll go back several steps (literally and figuratively!).

So this is how it works with dogs, though it can take a long time and there will be the odd setbacks.

Hopefully experts will be along in due course to give you more advice that actually relates to Tilly, and not spiders!

Just a quick reply as I'm going out - you CAN use the agility stuff as long as it's the tunnel, the weave with poles so far apart she doesn't have to twist, and a pole on the ground rather than a jump. Make it slow with a reward after each obstacle, then phase out the rewards. But I would recommend doing at-home scent work because that's very tiring in a nice way. If we don't have a pinned thread on it, I'll come back with some details later.

Hemlock said:

Just a quick reply as I'm going out - you CAN use the agility stuff as long as it's the tunnel, the weave with poles so far apart she doesn't have to twist, and a pole on the ground rather than a jump. Make it slow with a reward after each obstacle, then phase out the rewards. But I would recommend doing at-home scent work because that's very tiring in a nice way. If we don't have a pinned thread on it, I'll come back with some details later.

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Hi there Hemlock and so very many thanks for getting back to us. I cannot wait for Fiona to return home from school to show her your reply and yes, it would be truly great to hear from you again with every single bit of help / advice you are able to muster. Again, thank you so much. ps...yes, we have all the equipment you mention. Also, last night Fiona booked another 3 sessions with the dog psychologist. His work is done by means of having walks during which he monitors her behaviour and interactions and then advises and guides accordingly. He takes along his calmest of dogs, a German Shepherd, to "teach" Tilly that "stuff" is calm, it's all ok if you get what I mean.

John and Fiona said:

Also, last night Fiona booked another 3 sessions with the dog psychologist. His work is done by means of having walks during which he monitors her behaviour and interactions and then advises and guides accordingly. He takes along his calmest of dogs, a German Shepherd, to "teach" Tilly that "stuff" is calm, it's all ok if you get what I mean.

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Could you describe what he does when Tilly sees something she's unsure of? There are still a lot of old-school trainers around whose approach is to wait till the dog reacts to something, and then 'teach' the dog how to behave (e.g. sit), but this is just suppressing the unwanted behaviour rather than changing the dog's emotional response to to the trigger. You don't want to teach 'Yerk, it's a scary dog/person/truck but I HAVE to sit,' but either 'Meh, it's a dog/person/truck, no big deal' or 'Yippee, it's a dog/person/truck, I get a treat.'

JudyN said:

Could you describe what he does when Tilly sees something she's unsure of? There are still a lot of old-school trainers around whose approach is to wait till the dog reacts to something, and then 'teach' the dog how to behave (e.g. sit), but this is just suppressing the unwanted behaviour rather than changing the dog's emotional response to to the trigger. You don't want to teach 'Yerk, it's a scary dog/person/truck but I HAVE to sit,' but either 'Meh, it's a dog/person/truck, no big deal' or 'Yippee, it's a dog/person/truck, I get a treat.'

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Judy, hi again and a good day to you. Judy, I am rather certain it is the latter of the two methods that you suggest but I will have to check for certain when Fiona arrives home. I will, of course get right on back to you with the relevant information. Fairly sure though and this is why he takes his GS along to show Tilly all is ok, don't worry in a doggy way. The gentleman is very highly accredited indeed and is the person all of the vets refer to. He actually used to be a human psycholgist of good repute and then turned to his passion of dogs. Of course, he is unable to visit our home and this is why, with all this Corvid malarkey, we have to have these social distanced doggy walking sessions. Judy, I hope that makes some sort of sense and again, a million thanks and I will be back to you asap. ps...when Fiona is walking her she lunges at anything and everything. Of course this is massively distressing for Fiona. We have bought the proper harnesses etc...at least the ones recommended by the man...is it HALTI? again, I will have to get back to you.

John and Fiona said:

Judy, hi again and a good day to you. Judy, I am rather certain it is the latter of the two methods that you suggest but I will have to check for certain when Fiona arrives home. I will, of course get right on back to you with the relevant information. Fairly sure though and this is why he takes his GS along to show Tilly all is ok, don't worry in a doggy way. The gentleman is very highly accredited indeed and is the person all of the vets refer to. He actually used to be a human psycholgist of good repute and then turned to his passion of dogs. Of course, he is unable to visit our home and this is why, with all this Corvid malarkey, we have to have these social distanced doggy walking sessions. Judy, I hope that makes some sort of sense and again, a million thanks and I will be back to you asap. ps...when Fiona is walking her she lunges at anything and everything. Of course this is massively distressing for Fiona. We have bought the proper harnesses etc...at least the ones recommended by the man...is it HALTI? again, I will have to get back to you.

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Afterthought, if it in anyway helps any of you guys...her grandpa was an Australian Kelpie.

Scent work and other calming activities:

Fill a spray bottle with water and add something stinky like a sardine, piece of raw liver etc. Shake bottle vigorously, then lay a track around your garden squirting at ground level every 3 or 4 paces. Leave a treat by some of the squirts, then at the end, a jackpot of treats. Put dog on lead, say a word e.g. "track" and follow the trail together. Make jackpot time really happy. Day by day make this harder by squirting less often and phasing out most of the treats. Make the jackpot smaller. The dog can't get this wrong, so it doesn't matter if she 'cheats' by going straight to the jackpot. The point is she is doing this WITH you so you are not the Fun Police. You are the source of all good things. Thus she works WITH you not in spite of you.

Save all your cardboard boxes, big envelopes and cardboard rolls from inside loo rolls and kitchen paper. Hide tiny treats in newspaper, cram hard into rolls, etc. cram into boxes, seal boxes. Obviously remove anything dangerous like staples. Give puzzle toy to dog and let her rip her way in to get the treats. She'll be very fulfilled and tired after one or two of these, so no more than that per day. Again, be company for her when she does this.

The kelpie blood is important, as they add another dimension to being noisy and driven. But they are very clever dogs.

Hemlock said:

Scent work and other calming activities:

Fill a spray bottle with water and add something stinky like a sardine, piece of raw liver etc. Shake bottle vigorously, then lay a track around your garden squirting at ground level every 3 or 4 paces. Leave a treat by some of the squirts, then at the end, a jackpot of treats. Put dog on lead, say a word e.g. "track" and follow the trail together. Make jackpot time really happy. Day by day make this harder by squirting less often and phasing out most of the treats. Make the jackpot smaller. The dog can't get this wrong, so it doesn't matter if she 'cheats' by going straight to the jackpot. The point is she is doing this WITH you so you are not the Fun Police. You are the source of all good things. Thus she works WITH you not in spite of you.

Save all your cardboard boxes, big envelopes and cardboard rolls from inside loo rolls and kitchen paper. Hide tiny treats in newspaper, cram hard into rolls, etc. cram into boxes, seal boxes. Obviously remove anything dangerous like staples. Give puzzle toy to dog and let her rip her way in to get the treats. She'll be very fulfilled and tired after one or two of these, so no more than that per day. Again, be company for her when she does this.

The kelpie blood is important, as they add another dimension to being noisy and driven. But they are very clever dogs.

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Hemlock, thank you so completely. This is brilliant. I know Fiona will love and embrace these ideas and embrace them once she arrives home. Tilly will relish it all, I can guarantee. You are spot on with what you say ref her intelligence...we have had dogs since as long as I am able to remember, invariably collies and yet non a patch on Tilly. When she was at puppy training and then agility training etc the instructors were totally amazed by her intelligence, she really is massively clever. They also, for your information and something I forgot to tell you all, told us she had missed her "socialisation" window having been locked in the barn...just how right they were!!! All this is fantastic and beyond any amount of thanks. I promise to get back to you all as soon as Fiona has read and digested all this wonderful input. My most sincere of warm regards to you.

A Halti can lead to a dog suppressing her behaviours, and mean that she is not just in a scary situation, but also she can't do anything about it, so feels powerless. So again, ideally it's something only used in situations where she's not particularly stressed, so her mental process can be 'OK, that didn't work, maybe I'll just have this stinky fish cake instead'. A huge advantage I found when I used a similar halter on my dog was that I was now more in control so could stay much calmer. And, of course, I was less likely to get pulled over! So yes, it can be a very useful tool.

Hi again guys and @JudyN and @Hemlock
Right, as I suspected Fiona is totally bowled over with this help from you guys. It is precisely what we need. As for her leads, rather her ARRANGEMENT. Fiona calls it "getting dressed" and Tilly knows exactly what this means and knows it is walk time. She wears both a Dogmatic Halter in conjunction with a Perfectfit Harness on a double ended lead. It seems to work and is the system recommended by our dog behaviourist / psychologist. Perhaps your input here please guys? Hemlock, Fi says a million thanks for the scenting games etc which she is going to implement with immediate effect. We have also been on the Australian Kelpie website and eureka, to say the least. Oh boy is that Tilly or is that Tilly. Massively intelligent yet massively sensitive. Wary of other dogs and strangers. Hyper alert etc etc etc. As for the pictures on their website, well, it is like looking at Tilly, unbelievable. Guys, again, massive thanks and regards and you have given us much to work with.

Good luck - and do let us know how you get on!

John and Fiona said:

Hi again guys and @JudyN and @Hemlock
Right, as I suspected Fiona is totally bowled over with this help from you guys. It is precisely what we need. As for her leads, rather her ARRANGEMENT. Fiona calls it "getting dressed" and Tilly knows exactly what this means and knows it is walk time. She wears both a Dogmatic Halter in conjunction with a Perfectfit Harness on a double ended lead. It seems to work and is the system recommended by our dog behaviourist / psychologist. Perhaps your input here please guys? Hemlock, Fi says a million thanks for the scenting games etc which she is going to implement with immediate effect. We have also been on the Australian Kelpie website and eureka, to say the least. Oh boy is that Tilly or is that Tilly. Massively intelligent yet massively sensitive. Wary of other dogs and strangers. Hyper alert etc etc etc. As for the pictures on their website, well, it is like looking at Tilly, unbelievable. Guys, again, massive thanks and regards and you have given us much to work with.

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Hindsight again guys...getting a collie from a farm. Yes, I can perhaps feel your frustration with us from here. In the past we have been so very "lucky" I guess as they have been socialised. Unfortunately not our Tilly. On the bright side, I promise you all we love her to bits, we really do and are able to see and enjoy all her many attributes. I think it is going to be a long haul. Just perhaps you might find us a moment to talk through with us your thoughts on a) neutering (she had her first season on 19th September at precisely, to the very day, one year old and b) doggy tranks or doggy beta-blockers from the vets. Yes, I feel in my heart these would be wrong but...a short term fix whilst we get through this period??? Our next appointment with the doggy expert is on the 21st December.

Not frustrated at all - you have given a lovely dog a home and are doing your best for her.

Please keep a diary of progress, and then on those days when you get to the stage of lying down in a darkened room and only alcohol, chocolate or cake will help you, you will be able to see just how far you have come.

My own thoughts on neutering are hold off if your lifestyle and circumstances allow you to do this safely. By the end of the second season (and she may only have one a year) she will be much more grown-up, and you can have her spayed then. If you don't want her spayed at all, you can keep her whole - all mine have been after one catastrophic spaying made me say Never Again - but there are risks to either decision, and it's harder work with an entire female.

I don't agree with tranx at all, because it's likely she will still be distressed but unable to show it. Also it's really hard to train a spaced-out animal. Calmers are another matter: there are plenty of those to research and choose from, and you won't need a prescription.

Don't beat yourself up about missed socialising - with her breeding it wouldn't have made a lot of difference. Socialising isn't the magic bullet, and despite the doomsayers, I've found dogs open to new experiences all their lives as long as they can trust their owners to protect them.

Hemlock said:

Not frustrated at all - you have given a lovely dog a home and are doing your best for her.

Please keep a diary of progress, and then on those days when you get to the stage of lying down in a darkened room and only alcohol, chocolate or cake will help you, you will be able to see just how far you have come.

My own thoughts on neutering are hold off if your lifestyle and circumstances allow you to do this safely. By the end of the second season (and she may only have one a year) she will be much more grown-up, and you can have her spayed then. If you don't want her spayed at all, you can keep her whole - all mine have been after one catastrophic spaying made me say Never Again - but there are risks to either decision, and it's harder work with an entire female.

I don't agree with tranx at all, because it's likely she will still be distressed but unable to show it. Also it's really hard to train a spaced-out animal. Calmers are another matter: there are plenty of those to research and choose from, and you won't need a prescription.

Don't beat yourself up about missed socialising - with her breeding it wouldn't have made a lot of difference. Socialising isn't the magic bullet, and despite the doomsayers, I've found dogs open to new experiences all their lives as long as they can trust their owners to protect them.

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Hi Hemlock. Yes, Fiona has been doing so much research today, where possible, and has arrived at the same conclusions as yourself so that will be our chosen route with young Tilly. This second season / two year time seems to be a magical turning point for them so we shall persevere, adapt and overcome! You have been an absolute star and please know just how grateful we all are. We will periodically keep you all posted. Wishing you a most joyous festive season. John and Fiona.

Thank you so much - it is lovely when people understand what is happening with their dog.

One more activity - the flowerpot game. You need three small plastic flowerpots, paper cups or similar.

With your dog watching, put a tiny treat under one flowerpot, then let her knock it over and eat the treat. That's day one. Don't be tempted to do any more that day.
Progress to dog being out of room, being let in, flowerpot indicated, treat found and eaten. Next day, two flowerpots, only one of which has a treat under it. Move pots further apart, add third, but still only one treat. When dog is fine with that, hide flowerpots behind furniture but still point one out IF dog is not searching hard enough. Note that dog cannot get this wrong -- whether she sniffs out the treat, races in to knock all the pots over or waits for you to point at the right pot, the idea again is that you are doing something rewarding and fulfilling together. The more things like this that you do together,, the more confidence she will have in you for the outside world. BUT with her breeding, she will always be reactive because behind her are umpteen generations of dog bred to be reactive and to shout a lot. You can't odds genetics, only work with it, and every breed or breed mix has its own quirks.

Hemlock said:

Thank you so much - it is lovely when people understand what is happening with their dog.

One more activity - the flowerpot game. You need three small plastic flowerpots, paper cups or similar.

With your dog watching, put a tiny treat under one flowerpot, then let her knock it over and eat the treat. That's day one. Don't be tempted to do any more that day.
Progress to dog being out of room, being let in, flowerpot indicated, treat found and eaten. Next day, two flowerpots, only one of which has a treat under it. Move pots further apart, add third, but still only one treat. When dog is fine with that, hide flowerpots behind furniture but still point one out IF dog is not searching hard enough. Note that dog cannot get this wrong -- whether she sniffs out the treat, races in to knock all the pots over or waits for you to point at the right pot, the idea again is that you are doing something rewarding and fulfilling together. The more things like this that you do together,, the more confidence she will have in you for the outside world. BUT with her breeding, she will always be reactive because behind her are umpteen generations of dog bred to be reactive and to shout a lot. You can't odds genetics, only work with it, and every breed or breed mix has its own quirks.

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Thank you so much for that Hemlock, we shall be implementing that game. We are certainly coming to realise and appreciate that we need to be putting in so much more effort into Tilly than we have been...and please know we already spend as many hours a day with her as we are able from 5.30am through until 9pm ish when we retire. Again, it is not a chore as such as she is so adorable and relishes activity. The vocalisations might take a bit more adjusting to however. We took her to the supermarket at first light this morning and she freaks right out if anyone comes near the car and then onto the village farm where we buy our fresh milk and vegatables from and same again...and what a strong bark they have, oh my word! Penetrating. Having said all of that, you really have given us so much more understanding and hope for the future and we will absolutely be going the extra mile with her.