Weeing for Attention

merlina said:

There's a reason crates are illegal in some of the countries we think of as the most civilized and humane. I've seen dogs- particularly sensitive working dogs- become very disturbed by so called 'crate training'. I think if your very young dog is showing symptoms of distress you really should rethink.

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merlina said:

Ah well, me and Mark Twain then: the more I learn of people the more I like my dog.

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JacksDad said:

Dogs can get into a bark for attention. this is because ANY attention is reinforcement, so they learn "I bark, I get attention". it is not devious, it is simply learning what works to get a a need filled.

I have yet to come across any evidence that dogs will use urination to achieve this.

The solution though is NOT just doing the "time outs" (you leaving the room), the solution has 3 parts.

1. how to get attention. what is an acceptable means to get attention if not bark.
2. making sure their physical and mental needs are met.
Then only if 1 and 2 have been addressed do we go to...
3. time outs. barking to get attention is not reinforced because it cause us to disengage from our dogs.

on rare, rare occasions I have suggested start 3 earlier than above suggests, but 1 and 2 still MUST be implemented to have the complete solution.

If we never train what to do, the dog has no idea what makes the human happy. All they know is to do what comes naturally to a dog...bark, jump on etc.

often people do see a bark is a bark is a bark. But in reality, barking is just one of a couple ways our dog can communicate with us. there might be a need like going to the bathroom that triggered the barking. So you should not blindly do "dog barks, I leave the room" unless you are 100% sure there isn't a life need being asked to be addressed such as ... pee break outside. if we just assume the barking is the annoying "pay attention, play with me..me... me... me " barking, then you might miss the "I got to pee" bark and find when you come back from "leaving the room" as a correction/time out...a pee spot on the floor might be found.



While your puppy may not be distressed, there is legitimate concern about the time you indicate the puppy is crated. it's not so much the over all amount of time, but the long stretches between breaks. Keep in mind, this is a puppy with development needs such as mental stimulation and physical outlets for all that puppy energy. Long stretches in the crate increase those needs. which could be a factor in the earlier discussed "demand barking" for attention.

Puppies do not tend to need long periods of activity before needing another nap. I would recommend breaking up the time and taking 15 to 30 min puppy breaks. make sure there is a chance to bathroom. time to get the "wiggles" out, some play with you. some mental challenges etc.

Another concern is people are often given bad advice about the sizing of the crate. for what you describe in terms of use, the crate absolutely should be big enough for your dog to stretch out, change positions easily etc. people are often told to get small sized crates that barley allow the dog to move, stretch out, change positions etc. while there is a place for such crates, they are not appropriate for the type use you are describing. So be sure the crate is large enough for movement.

An alternative is X Pens. you can line them with pee pads as a safety, put in a bowl of water, dog bed, some toys etc and let your puppy hang out in a larger space.

I know some might have a concern that this option might cause an issue with house training. It will NOT be an issue IF you are proactive with taking your puppy out.

crates absolutely have their place. Dogs should be comfortable with them and used to spending time in them. After all if they end up in an overnight stay at the vet, a crate is where they will be. You are NOT wrong for using one. But given what you shared, I can see where there could be concern. And that concern could simply be due to the limits of what you have shared. And that is ok too...you shouldn't feel you have to bare your sole to us. it is the public internet after all. So take the concern for what it is, well intention concern.

Something to keep in mind, you might find the "bossy" / "demands" for attention problem also becomes addressed by adjusting how the crate is used. meaning more breaks with activity for your puppy in smaller, but more frequent windows of time.

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