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British And American Whippets

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Judy said:
If your interested in the subject  as well as Dogsteps you could try -
Dog Locomotion and Gait Analysis - Curtis Brown

K9 Structure and Terminology - Gilbert And Brown

The Dynamics Of Canine Gait - Leon Hollenbeck.

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All these will go on my list, to beg, borrow [try library order] or buy

Cheers Judy

Pauline
 
for a newcomer - could someone please explain, or better still add some pics o:) of 'parrell tracking' and 'converging' please? :cheers:
 
anniewhippet said:
A most interesting topic, I am sorry that I have come into so late when it has now raised so many different questions, in so many different ways.But for those out there who have enjoyed the line drawings etc I suggest they purchase the new Illustrated Breed Standard produced by The Breed Council. In this you get the written & illustrated 'blueprint' for our breed in the UK, and blueprint it is.

I agree there could be more 'extended' explanations in certain areas but where do you stop and I am now very pleased that we have a better description than before of certain areas i.e the front etc.

As to the original question, UK & USA type, and I admit that I can only answer this really via pictures seen & a few dogs, there does seem to be a slight variation to me. However this does not mean that the use of these, and the European dogs, cannot add something good to the UK bred whippet as we are already seeing in the rings today, when it has been carefully thought out by the breeder.

Correct or not I was told by an 'old timer' that pacing was the most economical form of movement! And as to the Dogsteps book, it was also available on video! gosh that shows my age in the era of DVD's......

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Quite agree with you Annie, when it has been well thought out, the introduction of American blood has certainly produced the goods. As to the slight variation again I would agree and the area that would worry me the most would be front assemblies. Ihave just recieved my latest copy of the excellent Sighthound Magazine, you only have to look at some of the winners from one of the American Specialtys to see the difference between British and American fronts in general. In fact look at any of this magazines editions where a national or regional specialty is featured and you will see what Imean. Don Weiden used to call them "column fronts", everything in a straight line! We certainly have our fair share of straight fronts but I dont think to the same degree.

Nicky
 
I have just fallen in love with a picture of a son of Ch Starlines Sweet Sensation she was my breed winner at Cleveland. He is called Starlines Sovereign, yet another by Ch Starlines Reign On, well I will have to dream or try and win the lottery. Found him on EWhippetzine it is very interesting.

I agree with Nicky with the sighthound Mag just arriving it does give you the chance to compare shows and winners in both countries, and I also agree with Annie there is a lot to be had from both sides but you do have to know what you are doing. Yes I do know Reign On would be far too big for our rings but what a sire he has been.
 
patsy said:
I have just fallen in love with a picture of a son of Ch Starlines Sweet Sensation she was my breed winner at Cleveland. He is called Starlines Sovereign, yet another by Ch Starlines Reign On, well I will have to dream or try and win the lottery. Found him on EWhippetzine it is very interesting.  I agree with Nicky with the sighthound Mag just arriving it does give you the chance to compare shows and winners in both countries, and I also agree with Annie there is a lot to be had from both sides but you do have to know what you are doing. Yes I do know Reign On would be far too big for our rings but what a sire he has been.

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What a lovely site Patsy, :cheers: for passing it on. 'Ashton' looks a very smart lad, can see why you like him :thumbsup: and the site is interesting for its general content, worth a visit.
 
Judy said:
Whether it is mentioned in the standard or not, I think it's a matter of biomechanics. The faster it moves, the more a long legged dog with a high centre of gravity has to converge in order to shift the support (provided by the paws touching the ground) under the centre of gravity. Wide trackers tend to have a more rolling gait as the centre of gravity has to be shifted over the supports instead of vice versa.
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THANK YOU JUDY!

I don't understand why so many whippet people want PARALLEL movement. Parallel means two straight lines - eqidistant from each other and NEVER converging. A dog who is extremely narrow in front and behind can move parallel but he would not be correct. A dog who is extremely wide in front and behind could move parallel but he would not be correct.

We move our whippets at the trot. The legs and feet MUST converge to the centre line of gravity to keep the dog from rolling from side to side. If he moved parallel at the trot this is what would happen. He might move parallel at the walk or a very slow trot but he should not at the medium paced trot which we use in the ring, well, that we use in the ring here anyway. I noticed in England that you move your whippets a lot slower than we do. The line from hip to where the foot is planted should still be a straight line but it should be coming in towards the centre of gravity not perpedicular to the ground as they are when they are standing four-square.
 
aslan said:
Judy said:
Whether it is mentioned in the standard or not, I think it's a matter of biomechanics. The faster it moves, the more a long legged dog with a high centre of gravity has to converge in order to shift the support (provided by the paws touching the ground) under the centre of gravity. Wide trackers tend to have a more rolling gait as the centre of gravity has to be shifted over the supports instead of vice versa.
Click to expand...

THANK YOU JUDY!

I don't understand why so many whippet people want PARALLEL movement. Parallel means two straight lines - eqidistant from each other and NEVER converging. A dog who is extremely narrow in front and behind can move parallel but he would not be correct. A dog who is extremely wide in front and behind could move parallel but he would not be correct.

We move our whippets at the trot. The legs and feet MUST converge to the centre line of gravity to keep the dog from rolling from side to side. If he moved parallel at the trot this is what would happen. He might move parallel at the walk or a very slow trot but he should not at the medium paced trot which we use in the ring, well, that we use in the ring here anyway. I noticed in England that you move your whippets a lot slower than we do. The line from hip to where the foot is planted should still be a straight line but it should be coming in towards the centre of gravity not perpedicular to the ground as they are when they are standing four-square.

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HOORAY hooray hooray hooray absolutely spot on :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
I think at a slower trot, the Whippet should appear near parallel, but as speed of trot increases, there should be convergence.

In countries like the US and Australia where faster gaiting is the norm, I think judges can look for convergence, but if the gaiting up and back the mat is slow, then it will appear near parallel, and either is correct depending on the handling and presentation style. I have had judges ask me to start slow and gradually increase speed as I gait the dog, and clearly, they are looking to see if the gait converges or breaks down when the dog is asked for a faster trot.

Of course, I've also had handlers under me who took the dogs super-fast trying to hide wide gait by forcing convergence at speed, and if I asked them to take the dog slower, the base-wide or more a-framing gait was evident.
 
Ill ask again. Where oh where do ANY of our standards ask for a dog to converge at speed or otherwise?

The British Standard states: Gait and Movement.

Forelegs should be thrown forward and over the ground. Hindlegs should come under the body giving great propelling power. General movement not to look stilted, highstepping, short or mincing. True coming and going .(Thisshould have been at the beginning) Should possess great freedom of action. In profile should move with a long easy stride whilst holding topline.

U.S.A Standard: Gait and Movement.

Low free moving and smooth, with reach in the forequarters and strong drive in the hind quarters. The dog has great freedom of action when viewed from the side, the forelegs move forward close to the ground to give a long low reach, the hindlegs have strong propelling power.When moving and viewed from front or rear, legs should turn neither in nor out, nor should feet cross or interfere with each other. Lack of front reach or rear drive , or short, hackney gait with high wrist action should be strictly penalised. Crossing in front or moving too close should be strictly penalised.

I dont see the word converge in either of those standards and I dont think that those two standards leave ANYTHING to interpretation

Nicky
 
UKUSA said:
Ill ask again. Where oh where do ANY of our standards ask for a dog to converge at speed or otherwise?

Click to expand...
Well Nicky, What Lana is trying to say is not a written law but to try and explain what most of the people look for and have seen over the years in whippet movement. In the dog below he is moving away on an angel so I've used two lines to show his center line "normaly one" red for the front legs and black for the rear. Leg 1 is on the ground and closer to the red center line than the other front leg and leg 2 is on the ground and closer to the black center line than the other back leg, this will change when he changes lead. When the dog is set up four square the there is equal distance from the center line to both front and back legs. This allows the dog to remain balanced with out falling over sideways so when he moves he has two feet on the ground oppisite each other and not four so he will bring the two under him to keep balance. The faster you move your dog the closer to the center line they come to keep there balance "but still true coming and going" until they break stride and move into a gallop. So there comes the term "converge" to the center.

Sorry for the poor photo but its the only one I had, if some one has a better one and can show the same sort of thing the please do. Hope this helps a little Nicky.

Cheers Griff.
 
UKUSA said:
Ill ask again. Where oh where do ANY of our standards ask for a dog to converge at speed or otherwise?The British Standard states: Gait and Movement.

Forelegs should be thrown forward and over the ground. Hindlegs should come under the body giving great propelling power. General movement not to look stilted, highstepping, short or mincing. True coming and going .(Thisshould have been at the beginning) Should possess great freedom of action. In profile should move with a long easy stride whilst holding topline.

U.S.A Standard: Gait and Movement.

Low free moving and smooth, with reach in the forequarters and strong drive in the hind quarters. The dog has great freedom of action when viewed from the side, the forelegs move forward close to the ground to give a long low reach, the hindlegs have strong propelling power.When moving and viewed from front or rear, legs should turn neither in nor out, nor should feet cross or interfere with each other. Lack of front reach or rear drive , or short, hackney gait with high wrist action should be strictly penalised. Crossing in front or moving too close should be strictly penalised.

I dont see the word converge in either of those standards and I dont think that those two standards leave ANYTHING to interpretation

Nicky

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But obviously the standards do leave a lot open to interpretation or we wouldn't be having this conversation :D .

The standards don't say they should converge but then they don't say they shouldn't converge either.

When a dog converges, the columns of the legs are still straight and both sides do still move straight and parallel to the direction the dog is going ("True coming and going") and both sides move in a parallel direction to each other. Its just that the straight columns of the legs are not at right angles to the ground in order to move the paws under the centre of gravity.

The standard does quite rightly say they shouldn't move too close ("Crossing in front or moving too close should be strictly penalised") because if a dog starts to plait or cross then the feet start to interfere with each other and the dog has to swing its legs out for the rear paw to overtake the front one which means that the columns of the legs are no longer moving parallel to the direction of motion or even in the same direction all of the time and that is what unbalances it.

Converging is what keeps the dog balanced and gives it stability and the faster it goes the more it needs to converge. Remember a whippet also has to be able to change direction quickly without stumbling so it needs to be well balanced. Clearly, the other extreme of crossing or plaiting would be wrong because that would unbalance the dog.

Its got more to do with gravity than anything and I'm afraid the laws of nature and biomechanics trumps any written standard. If the standard were to ask for something that unbalanced the dog then surely it would be the standard that was wrong. On the other hand, just because it fails to mention something that does keep the dog balanced (like it must have 4 legs), it doesn't mean that that's wrong either.

Also I think that regarding movement, standards sometime describe what people imagine is happening rather than what actually happens. High speed film has shown that dogs do converge more the faster they go. Remember how people used to draw horses doing a bounding gait rather than a gallop because that's what they thought they were seeing?
 
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Judy said:
UKUSA said:
Ill ask again. Where oh where do ANY of our standards ask for a dog to converge at speed or otherwise?The British Standard states: Gait and Movement.

Forelegs should be thrown forward and over the ground. Hindlegs should come under the body giving great propelling power. General movement not to look stilted, highstepping, short or mincing. True coming and going .(Thisshould have been at the beginning) Should possess great freedom of action. In profile should move with a long easy stride whilst holding topline.

U.S.A Standard: Gait and Movement.

Low free moving and smooth, with reach in the forequarters and strong drive in the hind quarters. The dog has great freedom of action when viewed from the side, the forelegs move forward close to the ground to give a long low reach, the hindlegs have strong propelling power.When moving and viewed from front or rear, legs should turn neither in nor out, nor should feet cross or interfere with each other. Lack of front reach or rear drive , or short, hackney gait with high wrist action should be strictly penalised. Crossing in front or moving too close should be strictly penalised.

I dont see the word converge in either of those standards and I dont think that those two standards leave ANYTHING to interpretation

Nicky

Click to expand...
But obviously the standards do leave a lot open to interpretation or we wouldn't be having this conversation :D .

The standards don't say they should converge but then they don't say they shouldn't converge either.

When a dog converges, the columns of the legs are still straight and both sides do still move straight and parallel to the direction the dog is going ("True coming and going") and both sides move in a parallel direction to each other. Its just that the straight columns of the legs are not at right angles to the ground in order to move the paws under the centre of gravity.

The standard does quite rightly say they shouldn't move too close ("Crossing in front or moving too close should be strictly penalised") because if a dog starts to plait or cross then the feet start to interfere with each other and the dog has to swing its legs out for the rear paw to overtake the front one which means that the columns of the legs are no longer moving parallel to the direction of motion or even in the same direction all of the time and that is what unbalances it.

Converging is what keeps the dog balanced and gives it stability and the faster it goes the more it needs to converge. Remember a whippet also has to be able to change direction quickly without stumbling so it needs to be well balanced. Clearly, the other extreme of crossing or plaiting would be wrong because that would unbalance the dog.

Its got more to do with gravity than anything and I'm afraid the laws of nature and biomechanics trumps any written standard. If the standard were to ask for something that unbalanced the dog then surely it would be the standard that was wrong. On the other hand, just because it fails to mention something that does keep the dog balanced (like it must have 4 legs), it doesn't mean that that's wrong either.

Also I think that regarding movement, standards sometime describe what people imagine is happening rather than what actually happens. High speed film has shown that dogs do converge more the faster they go. Remember how people used to draw horses doing a bounding gait rather than a gallop because that's what they thought they were seeing?

Click to expand...

:thumbsup: Spot On :thumbsup:
 
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parnew said:
Judy said:
UKUSA said:
Ill ask again. Where oh where do ANY of our standards ask for a dog to converge at speed or otherwise?The British Standard states: Gait and Movement.

Forelegs should be thrown forward and over the ground. Hindlegs should come under the body giving great propelling power. General movement not to look stilted, highstepping, short or mincing. True coming and going .(Thisshould have been at the beginning) Should possess great freedom of action. In profile should move with a long easy stride whilst holding topline.

U.S.A Standard: Gait and Movement.

Low free moving and smooth, with reach in the forequarters and strong drive in the hind quarters. The dog has great freedom of action when viewed from the side, the forelegs move forward close to the ground to give a long low reach, the hindlegs have strong propelling power.When moving and viewed from front or rear, legs should turn neither in nor out, nor should feet cross or interfere with each other. Lack of front reach or rear drive , or short, hackney gait with high wrist action should be strictly penalised. Crossing in front or moving too close should be strictly penalised.

I dont see the word converge in either of those standards and I dont think that those two standards leave ANYTHING to interpretation

Nicky

Click to expand...
But obviously the standards do leave a lot open to interpretation or we wouldn't be having this conversation :D .

The standards don't say they should converge but then they don't say they shouldn't converge either.

When a dog converges, the columns of the legs are still straight and both sides do still move straight and parallel to the direction the dog is going ("True coming and going") and both sides move in a parallel direction to each other. Its just that the straight columns of the legs are not at right angles to the ground in order to move the paws under the centre of gravity.

The standard does quite rightly say they shouldn't move too close ("Crossing in front or moving too close should be strictly penalised") because if a dog starts to plait or cross then the feet start to interfere with each other and the dog has to swing its legs out for the rear paw to overtake the front one which means that the columns of the legs are no longer moving parallel to the direction of motion or even in the same direction all of the time and that is what unbalances it.

Converging is what keeps the dog balanced and gives it stability and the faster it goes the more it needs to converge. Remember a whippet also has to be able to change direction quickly without stumbling so it needs to be well balanced. Clearly, the other extreme of crossing or plaiting would be wrong because that would unbalance the dog.

Its got more to do with gravity than anything and I'm afraid the laws of nature and biomechanics trumps any written standard. If the standard were to ask for something that unbalanced the dog then surely it would be the standard that was wrong. On the other hand, just because it fails to mention something that does keep the dog balanced (like it must have 4 legs), it doesn't mean that that's wrong either.

Also I think that regarding movement, standards sometime describe what people imagine is happening rather than what actually happens. High speed film has shown that dogs do converge more the faster they go. Remember how people used to draw horses doing a bounding gait rather than a gallop because that's what they thought they were seeing?

Click to expand...

:thumbsup: Spot On :thumbsup:

Click to expand...
Hear, hear! It is not difficult to understand surely! Just because the standard doesn't say about convergence it is what happens as animals (not just dogs) pick up speed to balance themselves. True coming and going, means just that. Not single tracking, pinning, dishing, plaiting or any of the other awful things that we see all too often!! And if they are true, they will converge the faster they go.
 
What is all this speed about, how fast is fast. Just asked my young neighbour to help me see Jason on the move. Walk, Trot and a fast run and his width of rear did not alter, I think he thought that I was quite mad.At a brisk pace I still say they should not converge..

I still maintain that a long week second thigh is responsible for poor hind movement
 
What is all this speed about, how fast is fast. Just asked my young neighbour to help me see Jason on the move. Walk, Trot and a fast run and his width of rear did not alter, I think he thought that I was quite mad.At a brisk pace I still say they should not converge..

I still maintain that a long weak second thigh is responsible for poor hind movement.

try again look at the spelling.
 
parnew said:
UKUSA said:
Ill ask again. Where oh where do ANY of our standards ask for a dog to converge at speed or otherwise?

Click to expand...
Well Nicky, What Lana is trying to say is not a written law but to try and explain what most of the people look for and have seen over the years in whippet movement. In the dog below he is moving away on an angel so I've used two lines to show his center line "normaly one" red for the front legs and black for the rear. Leg 1 is on the ground and closer to the red center line than the other front leg and leg 2 is on the ground and closer to the black center line than the other back leg, this will change when he changes lead. When the dog is set up four square the there is equal distance from the center line to both front and back legs. This allows the dog to remain balanced with out falling over sideways so when he moves he has two feet on the ground oppisite each other and not four so he will bring the two under him to keep balance. The faster you move your dog the closer to the center line they come to keep there balance "but still true coming and going" until they break stride and move into a gallop. So there comes the term "converge" to the center.

Sorry for the poor photo but its the only one I had, if some one has a better one and can show the same sort of thing the please do. Hope this helps a little Nicky.

Cheers Griff.

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Well Griff, After 30 plus years in the breed and many Champions I have finally had Whippet movement explained to me! So you are telling me that the top winning dogs, for example the top whippet dog of all time in this country Ch Khabaray Single Malt whose movement never changed at whatever speed he was taken, indoors or out was wrong and so were the judges who commented on his movement. Dessie I know what convergence means but I have never read a critique that has said how wonderfully a dog converged.

Nicky
 
:oops:
 
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I have noticed that lots of people tend to go at different speeds when moving their whippets. I think it all depends on the dog, as we are all aware whippets are born runners and there is nothing more delightful then watching a whippet in full flight. This however can not be directly transfered to the ring of course but to a degree i believe we must moved our dogs to show drive coming and going to do this we need a little "up and go". For me a whippet who does not move well is not conformed well. It all depends on the dog at the end of the day and how fit the owners are :lol: :lol:
 
I was always taught dogs should move to andfro something like this ~~~~

Moving across the carpet at crufts, not converging

Not a great photo but

move_harry.jpg
 
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