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I have never used a coller but have tryed one and they feel excatly the same as a Tens machine and I use my on full for 3 hours a day at least. its a sharp sensation but not painfull one so if anyone wants to know what they feel like put a tens on about the 1/2 way setting on pules the shock feels like one pules.
 
Rae said:
In reply to Annsa:
That would have been sensible, but I'd put alot of work into training her and she only ignored me when she was ready to go off hunting so I had to wait until she was about to go anyway, (otherwise I would have used it for the hell of it, she wouldnt have tried to run off in an enclosed space if that makes sense),
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Yes it would have been pointless using it then, wouldn't it......

i didn't think of it that way :b
 
What a fascinating insight into human nature this site provides. And what an utter waste of time it is to reason with people who have neither the intelligence to formulate a cogent argument nor the good grace to acknowledge another person’s. I for one do not accept that one person’s opinion is as valuable as another’s, where that opinion is based on nothing but emotion. And yet how often do we have to put up with ‘‘well, that’s just the way I feel’’. I don’t care how ‘you’ feel. I care about what you think. And if you are incapable of thinking then don’t make statements masquerading as opinions. Opinion by definition requires judgement, and judgement means weighing the facts – not simply repeating one’s own dogma.

Controversial? Perhaps, but hey! That’s just the way I feel.

Use of those collars? Never tried it myself, but would not be against it in principle if used with intelligence and compassion. I would certainly test in on myself first!
 
Holliepup said:
What a fascinating insight into human nature this site provides.  And what an utter waste of time it is to reason with people who have neither the intelligence to formulate a cogent argument nor the good grace to acknowledge another person’s.  I for one do not accept that one person’s opinion is as valuable as another’s, where that opinion is based on nothing but emotion.  And yet how often do we have to put up with ‘‘well, that’s just the way I feel’’.  I don’t care how ‘you’ feel.  I care about what you think.  And if you are incapable of thinking then don’t make statements masquerading as opinions.  Opinion by definition requires judgement, and judgement means weighing the facts – not simply repeating one’s own dogma.
Controversial?  Perhaps, but hey!  That’s just the way I feel.

Use of those collars?  Never tried it myself, but would not be against it in principle if used with intelligence and compassion.  I would certainly test in on myself first!

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Sensible reply!!!!!!!!!
 
Sibe Huskie's are a breed notorious for running off, when they get the voices in their heads telling them to run they just do, they go deaf to calls and forget all the years of recall training you have put into them, thats why most owners never let them off the lead.

there are one or two that seem to have near 100% recall but some of the ones ive seen recall well have also been very shy of their owners hands :angry:

a friend of mine with numerous professional canine training qualifications thought she'd be able to train her sibe to not do "the sibe thing" and let him have a life off lead and from the day she brought him home his clicker training began, he was a very good obedient puppy, he impressed everyone at training, he was a fairly good juvenile and they just put his one or two "bog offs" down to adolescent behaviour and hormones so off came his jewels ... then he started to think for himself,

D day came one day up on the moors when he decided to take off full flight [SIZE=14pt]X[/SIZE] he went deaf, he didn't hear the clicker, he ignored his training, his owners voice didn't distract him from his mission and the roast chicken in her pocket held no temptation.

after an hour she finally found him, tied short with bailing twine to a farmers gate, the farmer loading his shot gun after he'd been caught making breakfast out of a lamb, the farmer was well within his rights to end this dogs life.

now if something could have stopped this chain of events happening at the big red X do you not think it would have been favourable for everyone, the dog, the owner, the farmer, the livestock?

i've tried these collars round my own neck at a higher setting than i'd ever use on my own dog and all i received was a strange buzzing feeling :blink: i'd agree that the upper settings should not need to be in place at all, and i'm all for the upper limits being reduced by law, these collars should be used as a distraction only not a punishment, these collars are NOT a substitute for training, they are an aid when all else has failed and lives are now at risk.
 
Verity Veritas said:
Cruel, barbaric, never justifiable under any circumstances.
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i use electric fencing to keep our ponies in thier paddock :- "

am i cruel as well??

and they can get a good ZAP off that when they touch it :oops:

but they know when it on so they dont go near it..... :nuke: .....

i think every situation is different as is every dog and its training :thumbsup:

what works for one might not work for another....i think these mindless comments are being made by people with no experience of the of collar or the types of dogs it can help :thumbsup:

some of these dogs would or could end up dead...hit by a car :eek: ...id pick a little zap from a collar myself rather than a dead dog.....or the accident that can be caused by an out of control dog.. ;)
 
beaker said:
Sibe Huskie's are a breed notorious for running off, when they get the voices in their heads telling them to run they just do, they go deaf to calls and forget all the years of recall training you have put into them, thats why most owners never let them off the lead.
there are one or two that seem to have near 100% recall but some of the ones ive seen recall well have also been very shy of their owners hands  :angry:

a friend of mine with numerous professional canine training qualifications thought she'd be able to train her sibe to not do "the sibe thing" and let him have a life off lead and from the day she brought him home his clicker training began, he was a very good obedient puppy, he impressed everyone at training, he was a fairly good juvenile and they just put his one or two "bog offs" down to adolescent behaviour and hormones so off came his jewels ... then he started to think for himself,

D day came one day up on the moors when he decided to take off full flight [SIZE=14pt]X[/SIZE] he went deaf, he didn't hear the clicker, he ignored his training, his owners voice didn't distract him from his mission and the roast chicken in her pocket held no temptation.

after an hour she finally found him, tied short with bailing twine to a farmers gate, the farmer loading his shot gun after he'd been caught making breakfast out of a lamb, the farmer was well within his rights to end this dogs life.

now if something could have stopped this chain of events happening at the big red X do you not think it would have been favourable for everyone, the dog, the owner, the farmer, the livestock?

i've tried these collars round my own neck at a higher setting than i'd ever use on my own dog and all i received was a strange buzzing feeling :blink: i'd agree that the upper settings should not need to be in place at all, and i'm all for the upper limits being reduced by law, these collars should be used as a distraction only not a punishment, these collars are NOT a substitute for training, they are an aid when all else has failed and lives are now at risk.

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[SIZE=14pt]not everyone is blessed with a bidable dog but there are exceptions to the rule and in some circumstances if all has been tried and they need to use a electric collar then i don't see the harm, it is for the benefit of the dog, its not as if they are beating the living day lights out of the dog or illtreating it, and it is not a permanent thing is just short term everyone i have known that has tried one, says it only takes a couple of zaps and they dog realises it is much better to come when called, what would of happened if this dog had been shot, the owners would have been critisised for not having a controlled dog, [/SIZE]
 
also.. the dogs have had a few zaps from the fence when they have run in to the paddock (ponies are always in stables when the dogs are off lead)

they have all had 1 zap and now as soon as they go near the fence, i call them away and they come straight back :sweating: so its the same sort of thing as the collar, i could turn the fence off but the fact is i dont want the dogs in the paddock so if they do as they are told then nothing happens :thumbsup:
 
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If the collars are used correctly they don't cause pain, it's when you get idiots using them on too high a setting when it causes the dogs pain..
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This is why I am personally against them being freely available. I do find it it quite strange that members of a dog forum are advocating the use of a tool which can be abused and misused. I would rather leash my dog in areas where there are deer and I do after being caught out earlier this year.

I for one do not accept that one person’s opinion is as valuable as another’s, where that opinion is based on nothing but emotion
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I would like to see them banned. Any-thing which is designed to cause pain, however minimal is a step backwards in my opinion! Am I allowed to say that or will the K9 Thought Police arrest me for having an emotion. Sorry in advance if that is unacceptable. Perhaps we should ban all cute puppy photos as this evokes emotion and aaahs and oohs. Oh and don't tell us your dog is poorly or has died as it may make us feel sad and cry....

Humans have emotion, emotion is what makes us able to live side by side in a civilised (well almost) manner, it is why we keep animals as pets and not just as food or as a working beast.

Hope my argument is up to the required standard!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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would people object to these collars if the settings at their maximum only caused a vibration/buzzing/mild tingle? i for one whould be far far happier to see these collars max settings greatly reduced to prevent the chance of abuse but the total loss of them as a training aid would most likely see many dogs destroyed

i've seen "last chance dogs" given the chance of a full and happy life because such collars curbed their wayward behaviour when the only other option was a life of restraint or worse no life at all,

it's easy saying keep your dogs on the lead but nearly all of us have had dogs slip collars or break leads at some point in our lives, it may be a rare occurance but it's that 0.1% chance that they might keep running that can get your dogs shot, run over, or lost.

BTW my friend with the sibes now happily takes her 2 sibe huskies out for long walks on and off the lead, they always wear their control collars (which never need using) the dogs are obedient, come when called and get their chicken when they do, they don't cower in fear and they have never since gone disapearing over the horizon. happy playful dogs happy relaxed owners
 
would people object to these collars if the settings at their maximum only caused a vibration/buzzing/mild tingle? i for one whould be far far happier to see these collars max settings greatly reduced to prevent the chance of abuse but the total loss of them as a training aid would most likely see many dogs destroyed
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It feels all wrong to me Becca, but it would be a step in the right direction. My objection is that you can't reason with a dog and explain why they are in discomfort. We are advocates for animals as they can't be advocates fro themselves.

To use an example, I don't know if any-one watched Big Brother this year when they electrocuted the bottoms of housemates if a person doing the wiggly wire task touched it. Unpleasant uncomfortable viewing, but these people had the brain to be able to understand the concept and could take off the electrodes if they wanted to aand risk failing the task, if you haven't seen it, watch on you-tube and see where I am coming from.

My big fawn one may understand it eventually being bright, my little white one is so dim and so innocent, it breaks my heart (oops sorry an emotional response) to imagine his face just not getting it.
 
beaker said:
would people object to these collars if the settings at their maximum only caused a vibration/buzzing/mild tingle? i for one whould be far far happier to see these collars max settings greatly reduced to prevent the chance of abuse but the total loss of them as a training aid would most likely see many dogs destroyed
i've seen "last chance dogs" given the chance of a full and happy life because such collars curbed their wayward behaviour when the only other option was a life of restraint or worse no life at all,

it's easy saying keep your dogs on the lead but nearly all of us have had dogs slip collars or break leads at some point in our lives, it may be a rare occurance but it's that 0.1% chance that they might keep running that can get your dogs shot, run over, or lost.

BTW my friend with the sibes now happily takes her 2 sibe huskies out for long walks on and off the lead, they always wear their control collars (which never need using) the dogs are obedient, come when called and get their chicken when they do, they don't cower in fear and they have never since gone disapearing over the horizon. happy playful dogs happy relaxed owners

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Top post :thumbsup: .......The collars are just a way of interrupting the unwanted behavior from a distance .... They shouldn't be used IMO on many dogs, but there are a few that have extreme behavioral or temperament problems that need something like this for their or others own safety ...... In the wild of course the dog out of line would just get bitten in the neck/throat area to keep them in line ..... :- "
 
Joanna said:
[, my little white one is so dim and so innocent, it breaks my heart (oops sorry an emotional response) to imagine his face just not getting it.
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He wouldnt be looking you in the eye, trying to understand why you were being so cruel, chances are he may not even associate it with you directly, he'd be buggering off after a deer, or heading towards a road, or there'd be no need to use it.
 
If anything they do have their place in the Gun Dog world even though other methods even in that environment are used. Will it work err yes in skilled hands. Trouble is you need training in the use of something like that and this is why I support a ban on all shock collars to the public. If you read up on Gun Dog training the basic premis is not to use the collar to shock but to use it to teach the dog that when the owner calls the dog feels best when its at its owners feet, the way to look at this is this hide from your dog to make him feel lost and watch his behaviour he'll go into a bit of an alert and slight panic and look for you - that and only that is the level of discomfort that should be given! The collar is by no means should create a shock of more discomfort than a firm NO - clearly this can be argued against but I believe like all tools a master could show how this would be more effective and more humane than a load of screaming, treating up, pissed off human, or a lost tracking dog and so on.

Are you a gun dog master that has years of experience, if like me the answer is no then that should also be the answer to your request to buy one :- )

This is what will happen if you do, you run the risk of; Setting it too high for your dog. You give a recal and shock when they dont return dog will learn your voice means pain. Your dog may be with others and see a dog it doesnt like for no reason zap shock now it wants to kill all dogs, you may shock him near kids, now wants to kill all kids. Shocking itself may make the dog develop mental problems. BUT the biggest by far with all shock collars is the dog can and if used long enough DIE! Nope they dont tell you that. But in psychology we like to shock a few animals in order to create stress and find out how it effects living things after all the WHO state stress is the no1 killer in world.

So we electrocuted a load of monkeys, not with high volts but enough to cause major discomfort and up as high as a cry (think dog yelp) their hormones raced after prolonged shocks they would wear out their neurotransmitters for stress related hormones and die or suffer mental problems. Then we shocked them on commands to let them know it was coming, they died and developed mental problems quicker. Then we trained monkeys to shock other monkeys on the hour. The monkeys getting the shock suffered as in the first two but also the monkeys doing the shocking who never recieved any shock died very quick from tumours in their gut developed from being stressed out. Then we trained the monky to shock himself and these ones died and developed mental problems very fast indeed! (these experiements are now thankfully banned and we is not I but we in the field of psychology)

Therefore anyone fancy shocking their pet? It could kill them and you. Dont get me wrong pain is a fantastic learning tool for a dog its god damn bloody brilliant! Example I have a wood stove, it gets hot, my dog touched it with his nose once, jumped back rubbing his nose and never touched it again - very fast learning took place. As with all species learning from pain is best left to the animal ie the animal gets something wrong the body says to the brain dont ever let that happen again, the brain goes OK OK OK :- ) Considering the speed at which pain can teach and embed a behaviour, forgetting humane reasons for a moment, it simply can not be used becasue it is too easy to embedd something that you did not wish that will have ever lasting effects. Not to mention the fact animals and humans get used to pain and fight back hence it ceases to become a learning tool.

Many of us keep terriers, their hunting skills were learnt through painful trial and error - rarely would a human understand the process and hence it should never be used as a learning tool other than a last resort by exceptional professionals where all else has failed and the animal will be PTS if the severe problem is not fixed.

Read this http://www.clickertrainusa.com/learningtheorymain.htm it will, without having to pick up psyche books, explain pain and reward as learning outcomes. You are not wrong for thinking pain can be used to teach recall - it can. But it is a million times easier to use positive reinforcement. It is far more humane, it is far more health for the dog and for you. I beleive I can teach any dog, that does not have mental or massive social problems, recall in less than 4 weeks.

Again as far as I am concerned, controversial no its not it is science and it does have its place in the science of animal behaviour (thats real scientists not micky mouse dog behaviourists that learn no more than what is on that link) but these things need to be banned becasue of all the reasons above in both this and other peoples posts. Stick with reward based it will improve your handling skills, your bond with your dog will grow, your dog will be less stressed and more happy which will mean more health. Plus if you get it wrong you wont kill any children or other animals and you wont have to PTS your dog or worst put it to rescue so someone else can have it and maybe it will kill them.

In short, your best bet is dump it and join a dog class recommended by the rspca and read that link and look at these examples of how to train the baiscs (you can do these without a clicker too, just use the words good boy in a high voice) Good luck and let us know how you get on :- )

http://www.clickertrainusa.com/clicker-training-videos.htm

PS I hope that provided an unbiased views of negative and positive operant conditioning
 
kris said:
If anything they do have their place in the Gun Dog world even though other methods even in that environment are used. Will it work err yes in skilled hands. Trouble is you need training in the use of something like that and this is why I support a ban on all shock collars to the public. If you read up on Gun Dog training the basic premis is not to use the collar to shock but to use it to teach the dog that when the owner calls the dog feels best when its at its owners feet, the way to look at this is this hide from your dog to make him feel lost and watch his behaviour he'll go into a bit of an alert and slight panic and look for you - that and only that is the level of discomfort that should be given! The collar is by no means should create a shock of more discomfort than a firm NO - clearly this can be argued against but I believe like all tools a master could show how this would be more effective and more humane than a load of screaming, treating up, pissed off human, or a lost tracking dog and so on.
Are you a gun dog master that has years of experience, if like me the answer is no then that should also be the answer to your request to buy one :- )

This is what will happen if you do, you run the risk of; Setting it too high for your dog. You give a recal and shock when they dont return dog will learn your voice means pain. Your dog may be with others and see a dog it doesnt like for no reason zap shock now it wants to kill all dogs, you may shock him near kids, now wants to kill all kids. Shocking itself may make the dog develop mental problems. BUT the biggest by far with all shock collars is the dog can and if used long enough DIE! Nope they dont tell you that. But in psychology we like to shock a few animals in order to create stress and find out how it effects living things after all the WHO state stress is the no1 killer in world.

So we electrocuted a load of monkeys, not with high volts but enough to cause major discomfort and up as high as a cry (think dog yelp) their hormones raced after prolonged shocks they would wear out their neurotransmitters for stress related hormones and die or suffer mental problems. Then we shocked them on commands to let them know it was coming, they died and developed mental problems quicker. Then we trained monkeys to shock other monkeys on the hour. The monkeys getting the shock suffered as in the first two but also the monkeys doing the shocking who never recieved any shock died very quick from tumours in their gut developed from being stressed out. Then we trained the monky to shock himself and these ones died and developed mental problems very fast indeed! (these experiements are now thankfully banned and we is not I but we in the field of psychology)

Therefore anyone fancy shocking their pet? It could kill them and you. Dont get me wrong pain is a fantastic learning tool for a dog its god damn bloody brilliant! Example I have a wood stove, it gets hot, my dog touched it with his nose once, jumped back rubbing his nose and never touched it again - very fast learning took place. As with all species learning from pain is best left to the animal ie the animal gets something wrong the body says to the brain dont ever let that happen again, the brain goes OK OK OK :- ) Considering the speed at which pain can teach and embed a behaviour, forgetting humane reasons for a moment, it simply can not be used becasue it is too easy to embedd something that you did not wish that will have ever lasting effects. Not to mention the fact animals and humans get used to pain and fight back hence it ceases to become a learning tool.

Many of us keep terriers, their hunting skills were learnt through painful trial and error - rarely would a human understand the process and hence it should never be used as a learning tool other than a last resort by exceptional professionals where all else has failed and the animal will be PTS if the severe problem is not fixed.

Read this http://www.clickertrainusa.com/learningtheorymain.htm it will, without having to pick up psyche books, explain pain and reward as learning outcomes. You are not wrong for thinking pain can be used to teach recall - it can. But it is a million times easier to use positive reinforcement. It is far more humane, it is far more health for the dog and for you. I beleive I can teach any dog, that does not have mental or massive social problems, recall in less than 4 weeks.

Again as far as I am concerned, controversial no its not it is science and it does have its place in the science of animal behaviour (thats real scientists not micky mouse dog behaviourists that learn no more than what is on that link) but these things need to be banned becasue of all the reasons above in both this and other peoples posts. Stick with reward based it will improve your handling skills, your bond with your dog will grow, your dog will be less stressed and more happy which will mean more health. Plus if you get it wrong you wont kill any children or other animals and you wont have to PTS your dog or worst put it to rescue so someone else can have it and maybe it will kill them.

In short, your best bet is dump it and join a dog class recommended by the rspca and read that link and look at these examples of how to train the baiscs (you can do these without a clicker too, just use the words good boy in a high voice) Good luck and let us know how you get on :- )

http://www.clickertrainusa.com/clicker-training-videos.htm

PS I hope that provided an unbiased views of negative and positive operant conditioning

Click to expand...

Thanks Kris.

I hope that vindicates all the people who feel it doesn't have a place and has educated those who think it does.

Excuse me whilst I go off an utilise my emotions to mourn the loss of a beautiful whippet who belonged to lovely friends.
 
I feel it is so valuable to hear about peoples real personal experiences, rather than opinions based on notions. I have never used a training collar but have used an anti-barking collar - now my dogs can wear them and most of the time they are not even switched on. If the situation were grave enough i would consider using one - but probably after instruction from someone with exprience.

By the way i believe pain and fear for dogs can come from many other sources including leads, collars, bad handling, loud voices - it depends on how sensitive the individual dog is.
 
dana said:
if a person is not able to train and control a dog without causing it pain then they are not the correct owners for that dog.
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If you hadn't used one on Beauty, the dog I was talking about, whether or not you were the 'right' owner, you wouldn't have owned her for long.

I presume you are like the rest of us, when you walk away from the vet's surgery with a lead, and tears in your eyes............
 
Good to see some sensible reasoned opinion emerging on both sides of this important discussion!
 
Joanna said:
If the collars are used correctly they don't cause pain, it's when you get idiots using them on too high a setting when it causes the dogs pain..
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This is why I am personally against them being freely available. I do find it it quite strange that members of a dog forum are advocating the use of a tool which can be abused and misused. I would rather leash my dog in areas where there are deer and I do after being caught out earlier this year.

I for one do not accept that one person’s opinion is as valuable as another’s, where that opinion is based on nothing but emotion
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I would like to see them banned. Any-thing which is designed to cause pain, however minimal is a step backwards in my opinion! Am I allowed to say that or will the K9 Thought Police arrest me for having an emotion. Sorry in advance if that is unacceptable. Perhaps we should ban all cute puppy photos as this evokes emotion and aaahs and oohs. Oh and don't tell us your dog is poorly or has died as it may make us feel sad and cry....

Humans have emotion, emotion is what makes us able to live side by side in a civilised (well almost) manner, it is why we keep animals as pets and not just as food or as a working beast.

Hope my argument is up to the required standard!!!!!!!!!!!!

Click to expand...

My earlier comments were directed at no one in particular, but rather generally to those who here and on other threats, and indeed so often in all other walks of life, are happy to make black and white statements, often in a mildly or not so mildly aggressive way, and expect everyone to be cow-towed and carried by the force of arguments rather than its quality. A topic of this importance deserves some measured debate. It is not a person’s opinion that can carry a debate – it is the thought and justification behind that opinion. So that while one is perfectly at liberty, and indeed should be encouraged, to state their choice, I think it is presumptuous to expect others to agree, unless it is explained and justified. Even then, one must accept that others may see things differently. I have often noticed that those who make it their practise to venture opinion of the most unequivocal nature are those who are least willing to back it up with reason.

Things are rarely black and white. Various contributors here have discussed their use of this device. It seems to me they have done so after a lot of thought and consideration. By explaining their motives and indeed misgivings, they open themselves to criticism by those who are happy to criticise rather than discuss. I see that a more measured discussion has now ensued and I think that’s good.

By the way I would venture that it is not emotion that keeps society together but rules. Unless I’m mistaken, hate is an emotion?
 
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