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patsy said:
themetalchicken said:
~JO~ said:
Well TMC has found as she just posted on K9
themetalchicken said:
Seraphina said:
... In any case, we must realise that the cardiac tests available now only diagnose dogs suffering from the problem, there are not tests identifying carriers.   What we need is for people to report, just like Gail did, dogs diagnosed and those that died from heart problems.  We then need somebody to do DNA research trying to identify the genes responsible.
Click to expand...
liza said:
... its the same with the lhasa apso's if a dog / bitch is clear they could be a carrier of P R A we do need to bring in D N A testing to see if a dog / bitch is not a carrier of any defects.
Click to expand...
How lovely ... sane people ... I've been trying to say this in a thread on the same subject on The Whippet Forum ... but no one's listening

Annie

Click to expand...
So we are all obviously insane on TWC (w00t) :- "

Not many if any in this country anyway are I believe in the position currently to be undertaking DNA testing as there is not I believe one specific heart problem that is prevalent in whippets, nor is it easily accessible. yes Seraphina I agree reporting problems is definitely a important part.

Obviously in the future this would be the way forward, but currently having our breeding stocked tested for those tests available is a very good start, until we are in the position to DNA test

Click to expand...
Of course folk must work with the tests we have ... whilst working towards better tests ... demanding them of those in a position ultimately to provide them ... it would be insane not to.

Annie

Click to expand...
In the breed at the momment you can not demand that breeders do anything the KC do not demand it. So just let all of us who care get on doing what we can for the breed.

Click to expand...
Patsy I wasn't suggesting that anything be demanded of the breeders ... I was referring to the geneticists who will one day develop the more definitive tests that will ultimately be needed.

Annie
 
As an insane (w00t) one who has contributed on TWF site on this subject I am saddened that the tone in part is no different on this forum.

I applaud Patsy, & Roger, for starting the ball rolling on a public forum by posting about their testing and thereby starting discussions & enquiries from the rest of us.

There are many posts on TWF about the procedures, the costs, who could organise something further and what some have already started to do themselves, and well done to them. :thumbsup:

I have this morning asked many questions of a friend in another breed where they have, for many years, undertaken heart testing, as well as eyes, liver etc, to understand how their 'clinics' run and have found some quite interesting results which could have benefits to us if investigated further.

Please do not throw the bath water out with the baby, we could all look backwards and get ourselves in a huge mess, lets look forward and do what is right for the future of our lovely breed.
 
anniewhippet said:
As an insane  (w00t) one who has contributed on TWF site on this subject I am saddened that the tone in part is no different on this forum.I applaud Patsy, & Roger, for starting the ball rolling on a public forum by posting about their testing and thereby starting discussions & enquiries from the rest of us.

There are many posts on TWF about the procedures, the costs, who could organise something further and what some have already started to do themselves, and well done to them. :thumbsup:

I have this morning asked many questions of a friend in another breed where they have, for many years, undertaken heart testing, as well as eyes, liver etc, to understand how their 'clinics' run and have found some quite interesting results which could have benefits to us if investigated further.

Please do not throw the bath water out with the baby, we could all look backwards and get ourselves in a huge mess, lets look forward and do what is right for the future of our lovely breed.

Click to expand...
Annie always thought it was baby that got thrown out with the the bath water. It must be all the hard work you are doing on our behalf.
 
patsy said:
anniewhippet said:
As an insane  (w00t) one who has contributed on TWF site on this subject I am saddened that the tone in part is no different on this forum.I applaud Patsy, & Roger, for starting the ball rolling on a public forum by posting about their testing and thereby starting discussions & enquiries from the rest of us.

There are many posts on TWF about the procedures, the costs, who could organise something further and what some have already started to do themselves, and well done to them. :thumbsup:

I have this morning asked many questions of a friend in another breed where they have, for many years, undertaken heart testing, as well as eyes, liver etc, to understand how their 'clinics' run and have found some quite interesting results which could have benefits to us if investigated further.

Please do not throw the bath water out with the baby, we could all look backwards and get ourselves in a huge mess, lets look forward and do what is right for the future of our lovely breed.

Click to expand...
Annie always thought it was baby that got thrown out with the the bath water. It must be all the hard work you are doing on our behalf.

Click to expand...
OMG just re read it.....oops a blonde moment methinks but I still stand by what I have said even if it is t'other way round. :teehee:
 
Patsy will you require that breeders wanting to use this dog you've tested to do the same thing with the bitches they want to use him on??

Henrik
 
As another ' insane' from TWF & at the risk of repeating myself .... Well done to Patsy & Roger for getting the ball rolling ...... and ....

"Until we reach that 'Hallowed' day when we can all give a 'Definitive Guarantee' that every dog we breed will be 100% free of any problems ...... Surely , any test that may help to prevent or highlight a problem MUST be worth doing ... even if this means repeating it at regular life stages ????"

DNA testing would be ideal ....

But until

A - We know exactly what we are testing for

and

B - They develope a test that will find it

then its not an option .....
 
playawhile said:
Patsy will you require that breeders wanting to use this dog you've tested to do the same thing with the bitches they want to use him on??
Henrik

Click to expand...
Henrik it is all so new to us as breeders and things will move slowly but I am sure testing will be the way forward for all breeding stock. MANY LINES WE HAVE GONE WITH OVER THE YEARS YOU FEEL YOU CAN TRUST AS YOU HAVE NEVER KNOWN THEM HAVE PROBLEMS AND ON THE WHOLE I STILL FEEL THE BREED IS IN GOOD HEALTH
 
patsy said:
playawhile said:
Patsy will you require that breeders wanting to use this dog you've tested to do the same thing with the bitches they want to use him on??
Henrik

Click to expand...
Henrik it is all so new to us as breeders and things will move slowly but I am sure testing will be the way forward for all breeding stock. MANY LINES WE HAVE GONE WITH OVER THE YEARS YOU FEEL YOU CAN TRUST AS YOU HAVE NEVER KNOWN THEM HAVE PROBLEMS AND ON THE WHOLE I STILL FEEL THE BREED IS IN GOOD HEALTH

Click to expand...
It is new to us all to do testings!! I did not imply you feel the breed is not in good health. I was just wondering how you think in the long run. Thanks for your answer!!

Henrik
 
One test Dexter will never need is temprement :wub: talk about laid back -_- ,the first time i met him i had taken a maiden bitch to him it was also his first stud and with roger pretty much laid up with his knee it was down to me to do some of moving the dogs around to get the tie, he was a true gent even during the 90 minute tie -_- , now every time i see him i get greeted with a free facial ala dexter :wub: there is room for him on my sofa anyday
 
themetalchicken said:
Seraphina said:
... In any case, we must realise that the cardiac tests available now only diagnose dogs suffering from the problem, there are not tests identifying carriers.   What we need is for people to report, just like Gail did, dogs diagnosed and those that died from heart problems.  We then need somebody to do DNA research trying to identify the genes responsible.
Click to expand...
liza said:
... its the same with the lhasa apso's if a dog / bitch is clear they could be a carrier of P R A we do need to bring in D N A testing to see if a dog / bitch is not a carrier of any defects.
Click to expand...
How lovely ... sane people ... I've been trying to say this in a thread on the same subject on The Whippet Forum ... but no one's listening

Annie

Click to expand...

Annie, the whole point of the heart testing is to make those reports. No one is saying that we don't need further information or tests in the future, but the way you presented the point you were making was coming across like what we were are discussing now is absolutely pointless as it wasnt' telling us anything, when in truth with a full history it can be very useful in identifying probable carriers.

Again (as I've said elsewhere) we have to start somewhere and for you to say or imply (again whether or not intended, but it's how your posts came across) that these tests are pretty much useless then that will discourage people from even doing that.

Of COURSE there is work to be done. OF COURSE there will be hopefully other things in the future that can help us with this, but we need to do what we can NOW!

Please stop being the voice of doom and try being glad that people are starting to be willing to take steps in a postiive direction - that's a heck of a lot further than we were a few months ago!

Wendy

---

edited to fix quote as it got chopped
 
Last edited by a moderator:
chelynnah said:
Seraphina said:
... In any case, we must realise that the cardiac tests available now only diagnose dogs suffering from the problem, there are not tests identifying carriers.   What we need is for people to report, just like Gail did, dogs diagnosed and those that died from heart problems.  We then need somebody to do DNA research trying to identify the genes responsible.
Click to expand...

Again (as I've said elsewhere) we have to start somewhere and for you to say or imply (again whether or not intended, but it's how your posts came across) that these tests are pretty much useless then that will discourage people from even doing that.

Of COURSE there is work to be done. OF COURSE there will be hopefully other things in the future that can help us with this, but we need to do what we can NOW!

Wendy

---

edited to fix quote as it got chopped

Click to expand...
I certainly did not mean to be "the voice of doom", :) I just wanted to point out that the heart screening now available is just the very first tiny step. There are many people who come here who do not know anything about these things, and they may have to get the impression that all what you need to do is ECG and dogs certified clear are 100% guaranteed to be free of heart disease.

For any further tests we woul need to get a geneticist to look for the genes that may cause the heart abnormalities in Whippets. To do so they will need DNA samples from dogs with these abnormalities. Unfortunately, it all comes down to money and no company is going to invest unless there is a prospect of demand for the tests.

Therefore, in this moment the best option for breeders is to register the dogs who have developed premature heart problems. :- "
 
Seraphina said:
chelynnah said:
Seraphina said:
... In any case, we must realise that the cardiac tests available now only diagnose dogs suffering from the problem, there are not tests identifying carriers.   What we need is for people to report, just like Gail did, dogs diagnosed and those that died from heart problems.  We then need somebody to do DNA research trying to identify the genes responsible.
Click to expand...

Again (as I've said elsewhere) we have to start somewhere and for you to say or imply (again whether or not intended, but it's how your posts came across) that these tests are pretty much useless then that will discourage people from even doing that.

Of COURSE there is work to be done. OF COURSE there will be hopefully other things in the future that can help us with this, but we need to do what we can NOW!

Wendy

---

edited to fix quote as it got chopped

Click to expand...
I certainly did not mean to be "the voice of doom", :) I just wanted to point out that the heart screening now available is just the very first tiny step. There are many people who come here who do not know anything about these things, and they may have to get the impression that all what you need to do is ECG and dogs certified clear are 100% guaranteed to be free of heart disease.

For any further tests we would need to get a geneticist to look for the genes that may cause the heart abnormalities in Whippets. To do so they will need DNA samples from dogs with these abnormalities. Unfortunately, it all comes down to money and no company is going to invest unless there is a prospect of demand for the tests.

Therefore, in this moment the best option for breeders is to register the dogs who have developed premature heart problems. :- "

Click to expand...
:oops: I got a phone call as i started this post and finished while talking :b

It should have been:

"There are many people who come here who do not know anything about these things, and they may get the impression that all what you need to do is ECG and dogs certified clear are 100% guaranteed to be free of heart disease."
 
Seraphina said:
chelynnah said:
Seraphina said:
... In any case, we must realise that the cardiac tests available now only diagnose dogs suffering from the problem, there are not tests identifying carriers.   What we need is for people to report, just like Gail did, dogs diagnosed and those that died from heart problems.  We then need somebody to do DNA research trying to identify the genes responsible.
Click to expand...

Again (as I've said elsewhere) we have to start somewhere and for you to say or imply (again whether or not intended, but it's how your posts came across) that these tests are pretty much useless then that will discourage people from even doing that.

Of COURSE there is work to be done. OF COURSE there will be hopefully other things in the future that can help us with this, but we need to do what we can NOW!

Wendy

---

edited to fix quote as it got chopped

Click to expand...
I certainly did not mean to be "the voice of doom", :) I just wanted to point out that the heart screening now available is just the very first tiny step. There are many people who come here who do not know anything about these things, and they may have to get the impression that all what you need to do is ECG and dogs certified clear are 100% guaranteed to be free of heart disease.

For any further tests we woul need to get a geneticist to look for the genes that may cause the heart abnormalities in Whippets. To do so they will need DNA samples from dogs with these abnormalities. Unfortunately, it all comes down to money and no company is going to invest unless there is a prospect of demand for the tests.

Therefore, in this moment the best option for breeders is to register the dogs who have developed premature heart problems. :- "

Click to expand...
Hear hear :thumbsup:

Annie
 
Seraphina said:
chelynnah said:
Seraphina said:
... In any case, we must realise that the cardiac tests available now only diagnose dogs suffering from the problem, there are not tests identifying carriers.   What we need is for people to report, just like Gail did, dogs diagnosed and those that died from heart problems.  We then need somebody to do DNA research trying to identify the genes responsible.
Click to expand...

Again (as I've said elsewhere) we have to start somewhere and for you to say or imply (again whether or not intended, but it's how your posts came across) that these tests are pretty much useless then that will discourage people from even doing that.

Of COURSE there is work to be done. OF COURSE there will be hopefully other things in the future that can help us with this, but we need to do what we can NOW!

Wendy

---

edited to fix quote as it got chopped

Click to expand...
I certainly did not mean to be "the voice of doom", :) I just wanted to point out that the heart screening now available is just the very first tiny step. There are many people who come here who do not know anything about these things, and they may have to get the impression that all what you need to do is ECG and dogs certified clear are 100% guaranteed to be free of heart disease.

For any further tests we woul need to get a geneticist to look for the genes that may cause the heart abnormalities in Whippets. To do so they will need DNA samples from dogs with these abnormalities. Unfortunately, it all comes down to money and no company is going to invest unless there is a prospect of demand for the tests.

Therefore, in this moment the best option for breeders is to register the dogs who have developed premature heart problems. :- "

Click to expand...
actually Lida I didn't take your post a the doom and gloom one. My post was in reply to Annie's to you

How lovely ... sane people ... I've been trying to say this in a thread on the same subject on The Whippet Forum ... but no one's listening
Annie
Click to expand...
implying that no one on the other board was agreeing with her point. I was trying explain that people did understand that it's a beginning, but perhaps she was approaching with doom and gloom (leaving the impression that doing this wasn't good enough even for now), which is, perhaps, why her posts weren't as well received, where actually the way you stated it was clear - that these tests ARE important while there are other things that we can hopefully accomplish in the future.

Wendy
 
Last edited by a moderator:
chelynnah said:
Seraphina said:
chelynnah said:
Seraphina said:
... In any case, we must realise that the cardiac tests available now only diagnose dogs suffering from the problem, there are not tests identifying carriers.   What we need is for people to report, just like Gail did, dogs diagnosed and those that died from heart problems.  We then need somebody to do DNA research trying to identify the genes responsible.
Click to expand...

Again (as I've said elsewhere) we have to start somewhere and for you to say or imply (again whether or not intended, but it's how your posts came across) that these tests are pretty much useless then that will discourage people from even doing that.

Of COURSE there is work to be done. OF COURSE there will be hopefully other things in the future that can help us with this, but we need to do what we can NOW!

Wendy

---

edited to fix quote as it got chopped

Click to expand...
I certainly did not mean to be "the voice of doom", :) I just wanted to point out that the heart screening now available is just the very first tiny step. There are many people who come here who do not know anything about these things, and they may have to get the impression that all what you need to do is ECG and dogs certified clear are 100% guaranteed to be free of heart disease.

For any further tests we woul need to get a geneticist to look for the genes that may cause the heart abnormalities in Whippets. To do so they will need DNA samples from dogs with these abnormalities. Unfortunately, it all comes down to money and no company is going to invest unless there is a prospect of demand for the tests.

Therefore, in this moment the best option for breeders is to register the dogs who have developed premature heart problems. :- "

Click to expand...
actually Lida I didn't take your post a the doom and gloom one. My post was in reply to Annie's to you

How lovely ... sane people ... I've been trying to say this in a thread on the same subject on The Whippet Forum ... but no one's listening
Annie
Click to expand...
implying that no one on the other board was agreeing with her point. I was trying explain that people did understand that it's a beginning, but perhaps she was approaching with doom and gloom (leaving the impression that doing this wasn't good enough even for now), which is, perhaps, why her posts weren't as well received, where actually the way you stated it was clear - that these tests ARE important while there are other things that we can hopefully accomplish in the future.

Wendy

Click to expand...
I didn't complain that no one was agreeing with me ... I said no one was hearing what I was saying ... but never mind someone else has found the words to say it in a way that has got it heard which is all to the good.

Annie
 
interesting thread. health testing is vital, and those of you testing now are pioneers of something that can and will prevent suffering, and long term greatly benefit your breed as a whole.

i'd imagine that as this becomes more widespread, prices should calm down.

i am curious about one thing though...once key genes have been identified, how will you go about breeding? will you allow carriers of conditions to mate, provided its only with genetically clear animals (in which case, every subsequent generation will HAVE to be tested before being allowed to reproduce) or will there be a clampdown on all but clear dogs (meaning without a doubt that quite a hefty proportion of otherwise outstanding animals will be lost to the gene pool)
 
quintessence said:
This is interesting.  It is in relation to the work being carried out on EBV's (Estimated Breeding Values) by The Animal Health Trust.  It's about half way down the page.

http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/start.html

Jenny

Click to expand...
That's really interesting Jenny. That would be wonderful if the AHT would take on something like that with whippets as well. It sounds very much like what the Whippet Health Foundation is attempting to do in the US.

Wendy
 
lalena said:
i am curious about one thing though...once key genes have been identified, how will you go about breeding? will you allow carriers of conditions to mate, provided its only with genetically clear animals (in which case, every subsequent generation will HAVE to be tested before being allowed to reproduce) or will there be a clampdown on all but clear dogs (meaning without a doubt that quite a hefty proportion of otherwise outstanding animals will be lost to the gene pool)
Click to expand...
This is a really key question: I was talking to a friend who's a specialist in veterinary ophthalmology (eyes) and is on various boards for various breeds where they have ocular diseases for which there are good, proven DNA tests. And so they have conflicts of interest.

To get rid of PRA, you would ideally mate only clear dogs to clear bitches. But in some of those breeds, that would mean a virtual decimation of the gene pool, so it's not possible. They try then to mate a carrier to a clear and then yes, you have to test all of the offspring. It's far from ideal, but the alternative is to either open the breed stud book or let the breed die out altogether (and there are clearly people who think that the first would be equivalent to the second)

nothing is going to be simple. But identifying the problems is the first rung of a long ladder to fixing them. We didn't get here overnight with any breed. We won't get away again overnight either.
 
Eceni said:
This is a really key question: I was talking to a friend who's a specialist in veterinary ophthalmology (eyes) and is on various boards for various breeds where they have ocular diseases for which there are good, proven DNA tests. And so they have conflicts of interest.
To get rid of PRA, you would ideally mate only clear dogs to clear bitches.  But in some of those breeds, that would mean a virtual decimation of the gene pool, so it's not possible.  They try then to mate a carrier to a clear and then yes, you have to test all of the offspring. It's far from ideal, but the alternative is to either open the breed stud book or let the breed die out altogether (and there are clearly people who think that the first would be equivalent to the second)

Click to expand...

Apologies for anyone who thought I was referring to PRA in whippets - I was using it as an example of the problems that are being seen in OTHER breeds

m
 
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