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If you want stethascope testing by a cardiologist..............................

You might want to ask your local Boxer Club committee's as at some Boxer breed shows we have Cardiologists testing Boxers for aortic stenosis.

Typically it can cost between £10-15 per dog to be tested at a Boxer show.

This screens for heart murmers etc. Worth thinking about???

For holtor monitor testing for a 48 hour holtor monitor test it cost £235,

for a 24 hour test it's approx £200.

You also might want to contact Dr Bruce Cattanach (Steynmere Boxers)

for those not in the know he is a world reknowned geneticist, and will

celebrate his affixes Diamond Jubilee next year, although he has been involved

in Boxers since VE day..so you are dealing with a dog man too!

I know he is actively involved in the research of UK Boxer Cardiomyopathy.

So he may be able to point you in the right direction of whom in the veterinary cardiologists in the UK who may also be able to help.

Who knows he may even be willing to help your breed too!!

If you want to see what the Boxer breed has done see their website

www.boxerbreedcouncil.co.uk

click on health, AS for aortic stenosis, CM for Boxer Cardiomyopathy and

we also have published up the heart list of all dogs heart scored clear for aortic stenosis. The fails aren't published.

Sincerely hope that you all have the courage to step upto the job thats needed

to be good guardians of your breed to protect the breed & it's health for generations to come.

Remember - United you stand divided you fall.
 
Hi

I wondered what tests needed to be done for whippet breeders !

We've had some litters but would like to become Accredited with the kc but were unsure what tests our dogs and bitches needed any other help would be grateful ! We live in Caithness, Scotland and sometimes the vets up here are well stupid ! or don't know !

Zoe from ' Froal Whippets ' :unsure: :))
 
bailey08 said:
HiI wondered what tests needed to be done for whippet breeders !

We've had some litters but would like to become Accredited with the kc but were unsure what tests our dogs and bitches needed any other help would be grateful ! We live in Caithness, Scotland and sometimes the vets up here are well stupid ! or don't know !

Zoe from ' Froal Whippets ' :unsure:   :))

Click to expand...

I'd be interested too....

I've clearly missed some of this - was online in other contexts, offering support to the Obama campaign in the US (isn't life wonderful at times? :cheers: ) - so I'm not up to speed on why heart testing has taken off - tho' very glad that the whole paradigm seems to be shifting and immensely impressed that Paddy Mannion is involved - she's one of the best clinicians in the country.

SO I have questions for those involved:

- is the testing for 'all or nothing' diseases that will show up as either being 'positive' or 'negative' and will remain so for life?

or

- are they for diseases that may show up at any time and so the testing will need to be done on a regular basis (say, before each mating) and with all progeny tested as well to begin to get a handle on the incidence?

and

- do we know the heritability of the diseases/disease complexes for which we are testing?

(that is, are they simple recessive/dominants or are they more complex?)

and

- besides the eye and ear tests (Is anybody doing DNA testing for eyes, or is it purely an ophthalmic exam?) is there any move towards testing for and/or building a data base of, the spectrum of what may or may not be out there?

I am immensely impressed by the speed with which this has moved in the past few months. Well done and thank you.

m
 
There's still no requirement on whippets by the KC. This is something that we are just now looking into. At the moment what I believe people are looking into are eye testing (the regular tests that will need to be redone at various points - and hopefully the blood tests to look for genetic markers), BAER testing for ears, and heart tests. We're hoping that the breed clubs will pick up the ball and run with it, and hopefully have testing avaialble at a lower price at shows etc, but this will take time to get going.

Ideally I personally would like to see the full echocardiogram with doppelar as this will give the maximum amount of information, and when I am able to do so will be doing it with all of my girls - not just the one I will be breeding in a few years.

At the moment this will only be a yes/no type of test as there is no genetic data available yet, but if we test and retest our dogs over time and someone (ie breed club or breed council or KC) starts to build a database, this will help us to make informed decisions in the future over breeding with relation to these issues.

I want to state again that I still believe that overall whippets are still a healthy breed esp in comparison to many other breeds out there and no one is yelling 'FIRE' but that we are now (certainly me and many others) at a point where we wish to take advantage of what's avilable and not only prove this if possible, but then to preserve the health of our breed. I have always thought that we have undertested, and so this shift in thinking is a really welcome change to me!

Hope that made sense.

Wendy
 
chelynnah said:
There's still no requirement on whippets by the KC.  This is something that we are just now looking into.  At the moment what I believe people are looking into are eye testing (the regular tests that will need to be redone at various points - and hopefully the blood tests to look for genetic markers), BAER testing for ears, and heart tests.  We're hoping that the breed clubs will pick up the ball and run with it, and hopefully have testing avaialble at a lower price at shows etc, but this will take time to get going.
Ideally I personally would like to see the full echocardiogram with doppelar as this will give the maximum amount of information, and when I am able to do so will be doing it with all of my girls - not just the one I will be breeding in a few years.

At the moment this will only be a yes/no type of test as there is no genetic data available yet, but if we test and retest our dogs over time and someone (ie breed club or breed council or KC) starts to build a database, this will help us to make informed decisions in the future over breeding with relation to these issues.

I want to state again that I still believe that overall whippets are still a healthy breed esp in comparison to many other breeds out there and no one is yelling 'FIRE' but that we are now (certainly me and many others) at a point where we wish to take advantage of what's avilable and not only prove this if possible, but then to preserve the health of our breed.  I have always thought that we have undertested, and so this shift in thinking is a really welcome change to me!

Hope that made sense.

Wendy

Click to expand...
Good post Wendy, as you say the KC has no requirments for the breed to be tested and lets hope it stays that way and we can prove they are in a good state.
 
chelynnah said:
There's still no requirement on whippets by the KC.  This is something that we are just now looking into.  At the moment what I believe people are looking into are eye testing (the regular tests that will need to be redone at various points - and hopefully the blood tests to look for genetic markers), BAER testing for ears, and heart tests.  We're hoping that the breed clubs will pick up the ball and run with it, and hopefully have testing avaialble at a lower price at shows etc, but this will take time to get going.
Ideally I personally would like to see the full echocardiogram with doppelar as this will give the maximum amount of information, and when I am able to do so will be doing it with all of my girls - not just the one I will be breeding in a few years.

At the moment this will only be a yes/no type of test as there is no genetic data available yet, but if we test and retest our dogs over time and someone (ie breed club or breed council or KC) starts to build a database, this will help us to make informed decisions in the future over breeding with relation to these issues.

I want to state again that I still believe that overall whippets are still a healthy breed esp in comparison to many other breeds out there and no one is yelling 'FIRE' but that we are now (certainly me and many others) at a point where we wish to take advantage of what's avilable and not only prove this if possible, but then to preserve the health of our breed.  I have always thought that we have undertested, and so this shift in thinking is a really welcome change to me!

Hope that made sense.

Wendy
Click to expand...
Just because the KC don't require it doesn't mean to say that your breed can't step up and advise testing themselves.

This is what happened in 'my' breed Boxers. They at breed council level along with breeders & the help of a breed man who is a reknowned genetics person, devised breed reccomendations to reduce the incidence of Aortic Stenosis within the breed.

This breed reccomendation has been going 15 years and has significantly reduced the incidence of AS within our breed as indicated by the cardiologist referral centres across the UK. (The breed have also done this in the early 80's with PA - Progressive Anoxopathy. We managed to eradicate this from the breed.)

I'm sure that if you contact the Boxer breed council's health committee they would be able to help you with the right contacts in the cardiologists to 'get the ball rollling'. Also up on their website is the reccomendations set out by Dr Cattanach in October 1993. Plus the heart test clear list of all dogs & bitches considered clear for breeding purposes. When we get our dogs tested we sign the form to agree that the results can be stored on a a database, used for research purposes and clear grades published (data protection rules etc)

Whilst I'm sure no-one is yelling fire it's important to note that when problems do crop up there is only a short window of opportunity to be able to make that difference and halt or minimise the effects of that problem within the breed.

Those that choose to seize the window of opportunity may well be able to protect their breed from treading down the same path that many other breeds have gone down and not been able to turn back.

Don't let this happen to 'your' breed whilst you still have a chance to make a difference.

Kirstine
 
Isn’t an extensive health survey in order before going in the direction of compulsory testing of eyes and hearts? Would it not be wonderful if the breed council in the UK could organise such a survey and then hopefully as many as possible could answer this to get an overall picture of the breed?? This type of health survey has been done about every 5 years in Sweden since 1990 and the results have so far not called for any testing.

Henrik
 
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playawhile said:
Isn’t an extensive health survey in order before going in the direction of compulsory testing of eyes and hearts? Would it not be wonderful if the breed council in the UK could organise such a survey and then hopefully as many as possible could answer this to get an overall picture of the breed?? This type of health survey has been done about every 5 years in Sweden since 1990 and the results have so far not called for any testing.
Henrik

Click to expand...
Good idea Henrik :cheers:

I will bring it up at the next breed council meeting or maybe get it on the agenda :cheers:

edited to say ,

should we try and send it out to the `puppy farmers `as well ? see what responce we get :wacko:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
bailey08 said:
HiI wondered what tests needed to be done for whippet breeders !

We've had some litters but would like to become Accredited with the kc but were unsure what tests our dogs and bitches needed any other help would be grateful ! We live in Caithness, Scotland and sometimes the vets up here are well stupid ! or don't know !

Zoe from ' Froal Whippets ' :unsure:   :))

Click to expand...

i am an acredited breeder there are no tests to be done only d n a all breeding stock
 
Boxacrazy said:
Just because the KC don't require it doesn't mean to say that your breed can't step up and advise testing themselves.
This is what happened in 'my' breed Boxers. They at breed council level along with breeders & the help of a breed man who is a reknowned genetics person, devised breed reccomendations to reduce the incidence of Aortic Stenosis within the breed.

This breed reccomendation has been going 15 years and has significantly reduced the incidence of AS within our breed as indicated by the cardiologist referral centres across the UK. (The breed have also done this in the early 80's with PA - Progressive Anoxopathy. We managed to eradicate this from the breed.)

I'm sure that if you contact the Boxer breed council's health committee they would be able to help you with the right contacts in the cardiologists to 'get the ball rollling'. Also up on their website is the reccomendations set out by Dr Cattanach in October 1993. Plus the heart test clear list of all dogs & bitches considered clear for breeding purposes. When we get our dogs tested we sign the form to agree that the results can be stored on a a database, used for research purposes and clear grades published (data protection rules etc)

 

Whilst I'm sure no-one is yelling fire it's important to note that when problems do crop up there is only a short window of opportunity to be able to make that difference and halt or minimise the effects of that problem within the breed.

Those that choose to seize the window of opportunity may well be able to protect their breed from treading down the same path that many other breeds have gone down and not been able to turn back.

Don't let this happen to 'your' breed whilst you still have a chance to make a difference.

Kirstine
Click to expand...
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clapping.gif
clapping.gif


Annie
 
chelynnah said:
Ideally I personally would like to see the full echocardiogram with doppelar as this will give the maximum amount of information, and when I am able to do so will be doing it with all of my girls - not just the one I will be breeding in a few years.
Hope that made sense.

Wendy

Click to expand...

It does kind of... but ECG/Ultrasound will only tell you what's happening morphologically and electrically *now* - not what might happen next week or next month or next year.

if the conditions you think you're looking for are 'all or nothing' - aortic stenosis, for instance, which shows up as a reduction in the diameter of the aorta as soon as the dog is adult - and stays for life - then that's wonderful.

but

if it's one of the many, many conditions that arise later in life at an indeterminate time, then the ultrasound/ECG (EKG in the US) will tell you nothing useful except that there's nothing visible at the time of the exam - and the breeding stock (and their siblings) should therefore be tested regularly.

It's a bit like the PRA conundrum in other breeds - you can do an 'eye test' and have 'eye test clear' but it's a pretty meaningless event except to say that your dog didn't have visible signs of PRA at the time the person looked in his/her eyes. (or did, obviously, in which case you exclude it and potentially all its progeny/siblings from the breeding programme if you're actually serious about getting rid of PRA).

Luckily for the affected breeds, there's a DNA test now for PRA so that you can get a definitive answer. Luckily also, the genetics of PRA Is fairly straightforward - it's a simple recessive so if the DNA test is clear in both parents, you can be absolutely 100% certain that the offspring are clear and you don't need to test them. (Of course mutations happen all the time and the lower the genetic diversity, the more likelihood that something else will arise, but that's a separate issue).

I don't know enough about what pathology is seen in whippets to know what kind of diseases you're looking for and so whether the heart tests fall into 'for life' or 'just for now' category.

can anyone enlighten me?

m
 
I know that Prof Rebecca Stepien over in the US is researching MVD (mitral valve disease) in whippets. MVD is thought to be genetic in origin and whippets would seem to have a predisposition to the disease. I believe that they are recommending yearly heart exams for breeding stock as MVD is often late onset.

Re. AS (aortic stenosis) I understood that dogs (not necessarily whippets) that have scored zero for this can still go on to produce offspring with higher scores as the condition can be so mild as to be impossible to detect but nonetheless genetically transmissable. Can you comment on that please Manda.

Annie
 
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Hello again,

Thanks wendy and lisa for your feed back ! :cheers:

I find these discussions very interesting and useful ! :))

Zoe

Froal whippets
 
JAX said:
Good idea Henrik  :cheers:
I will bring it up at the next breed council meeting or maybe get it on the agenda  :cheers:

edited to say ,

should we try and send it out to the `puppy farmers `as well ? see what responce we get  :wacko:

Click to expand...

That would be a briliant idea.... a breed database, with a questionnaire (possibly with a downloadable version in email form?) to all vets, breed clubs and dog magazines so that everybody and anybody who saw any kind of health issue could note it down and send it in.

Sorting the hereditary from the 'others' might be interesting, but it's a good start.

Maybe our Swedish friends can say how they do that?

m
 
themetalchicken said:
I know that Prof Rebecca Stepien over in the US is researching MVD (mitral valve disease) in whippets. MVD is thought to be genetic in origin and whippets would seem to have a predisposition to the disease. I believe that they are recommending yearly heart exams for breeding stock as MVD is often late onset.
Re. AS (aortic stenosis) I understood that dogs (not necessarily whippets) that have scored zero for this can still go on to produce offspring with higher scores as the condition can be so mild as to be impossible to detect but nonetheless genetically transmissable. Can you comment on that please Manda.

Annie

Click to expand...

Hummmm.. yes, you're right, AS isn't totally black and white - in that respect it's a bit more like hip dysplasia in that there are degrees of pathology and some may be below the radar. I also think the inheritance is complex and not a simple mendellian yes/no picture...

if we're going to go into complex cardiology, I'll need to do some serious reading - which will have to wait until I've got the book done - deadline is the end of the year and my spare brain-power is going exclusively to that. If you can wait until the edits are in, then I'll do the necessary research.

But in the meantime, even if we only collate on here the number of conditions that have been seen and their onset, that'd be a start. It's a necessarily limited group because only a small percentage of whippet owners are on line and of those a smaller percentage still are on K9, but that doesn't rule out an initial survey.

I'd broaden it to include all pathology. As far as I'm aware, the deafness only occurred in white whippets and was related to the colour. A great many white animals - dogs, cats, cattle - are deaf so it's not necessarily breed related except insofar as any animal has a propensity to throw white offspring - but if there has been other deafness, then clearly I'm out of that loop.

and eyes? What are we testing for there? And what's the incidence of ocular disease?

and other things: neuromuscular/inflammatory/auto-immune... there were incidences of those as I remember, just that nobody has the numbers in percent of the population.

which takes us all back to a breed database with a wide and effective data collection system.

thanks, all

manda
 
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playawhile said:
Isn’t an extensive health survey in order before going in the direction of compulsory testing of eyes and hearts? Would it not be wonderful if the breed council in the UK could organise such a survey and then hopefully as many as possible could answer this to get an overall picture of the breed?? This type of health survey has been done about every 5 years in Sweden since 1990 and the results have so far not called for any testing.
Henrik

Click to expand...
Henrik all clubs did get health forms to send out but hardly anything came back to worry the KC
 
patsy said:
playawhile said:
Isn’t an extensive health survey in order before going in the direction of compulsory testing of eyes and hearts? Would it not be wonderful if the breed council in the UK could organise such a survey and then hopefully as many as possible could answer this to get an overall picture of the breed?? This type of health survey has been done about every 5 years in Sweden since 1990 and the results have so far not called for any testing.
Henrik

Click to expand...
Henrik all clubs did get health forms to send out but hardly anything came back to worry the KC

Click to expand...

Maybe vets (referral centres as well as GPs) and the general public need to be involved too, to make it workable?

without something like this, all testing becomes a shot in the dark - and a very expensive one at that if you have to test all stud dogs/bitches every year.

m
 
Eceni said:
chelynnah said:
Ideally I personally would like to see the full echocardiogram with doppelar as this will give the maximum amount of information, and when I am able to do so will be doing it with all of my girls - not just the one I will be breeding in a few years.
Hope that made sense.

Wendy

Click to expand...

It does kind of... but ECG/Ultrasound will only tell you what's happening morphologically and electrically *now* - not what might happen next week or next month or next year.

if the conditions you think you're looking for are 'all or nothing' - aortic stenosis, for instance, which shows up as a reduction in the diameter of the aorta as soon as the dog is adult - and stays for life - then that's wonderful.

but

if it's one of the many, many conditions that arise later in life at an indeterminate time, then the ultrasound/ECG (EKG in the US) will tell you nothing useful except that there's nothing visible at the time of the exam - and the breeding stock (and their siblings) should therefore be tested regularly.

It's a bit like the PRA conundrum in other breeds - you can do an 'eye test' and have 'eye test clear' but it's a pretty meaningless event except to say that your dog didn't have visible signs of PRA at the time the person looked in his/her eyes. (or did, obviously, in which case you exclude it and potentially all its progeny/siblings from the breeding programme if you're actually serious about getting rid of PRA).

Luckily for the affected breeds, there's a DNA test now for PRA so that you can get a definitive answer. Luckily also, the genetics of PRA Is fairly straightforward - it's a simple recessive so if the DNA test is clear in both parents, you can be absolutely 100% certain that the offspring are clear and you don't need to test them. (Of course mutations happen all the time and the lower the genetic diversity, the more likelihood that something else will arise, but that's a separate issue).

I don't know enough about what pathology is seen in whippets to know what kind of diseases you're looking for and so whether the heart tests fall into 'for life' or 'just for now' category.

can anyone enlighten me?

m

Click to expand...
Hence the bit in my post about 'testing and re-testing' (which seems to have got snipped out of what you quoted of my post). If dogs are retested (again another reason why we need to get the cost down) every year or two, then again we can build up a database of how whippet hearts progress over their lifetime - build a baseline for what is normal, and for what is abnormal.

Yes, it will only show who is clear now, but if we re-test at regular intervals then problems will be caught, and again, we can start over time to find the patterns whether or not there is a specific DNA marker at the moment.

This is my frustration - it sounds like you're saying all or nothing. We have to utilize what we have. If someone comes along and says things like 'yes, but that's not good enough' then all the good that we're doing by encouraging people to start testing can be undone because they think - oh well what's the point. And I'm sure that's not your intention, but can you see how it can be taken?

We do what we can now and if other more progressive tests come up then we do them when they are available. I'm finding it sooo frustrating that we've finally got the ball rolling on something and then people start jumping in with 'it's not enough' and may end up chasing everyone back to doing nothing. It's overwhelming enough for some as it is to pick their way through why to do what is available now. We need to walk before we can run.

Wendy
 
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My apologies, I wasn't intending to say 'it's not good enough' - I am genuinely impressed at the things that are happening, just that I'd hate the whippet world to go the way of some other breeds where 'x tested clear' was taken as a suggestion that it was actually genetically clear rather than 'clear when last looked at' which is something quite different.

but yes, by all means, a testing and re-testing program to build up a database of disease progression would be an excellent idea.

m
 
patsy said:
playawhile said:
Isn’t an extensive health survey in order before going in the direction of compulsory testing of eyes and hearts? Would it not be wonderful if the breed council in the UK could organise such a survey and then hopefully as many as possible could answer this to get an overall picture of the breed?? This type of health survey has been done about every 5 years in Sweden since 1990 and the results have so far not called for any testing.
Henrik

Click to expand...
Henrik all clubs did get health forms to send out but hardly anything came back to worry the KC

Click to expand...

Yes , Patsy , but the KC sent them to ALL BREEDS , maybe if we just concentrated on our breed and they had to reply to the Breed Council ,there might , just might be a better response :wacko:

I dont suppose any one has a copy thats the KC sent out , I dont as I sent mine back o:)
 
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