The Most Dog Friendly Community Online
Join Dog Forum to Discuss Breeds, Training, Food and More

Join Now for Free
New posts

Health, The Next Step

jayp

jayp

New Member
Registered
Messages
1,320
Reaction score
0
Points
0

Join our free community today.

Connect with other like-minded dog lovers!

Login or Register
This has been sent by the KC to all clubs along with the request to adopt the new KC code of ethics

BREED HEALTH PLAN

Finally and crucially i would ask you to ensure that you have a committee meeting set up for the early part of December 2008 since by this time you will have been sent a Health Plan for your breed which will require urgent consideration by your committee in order that you are able to give feedback to the KC by the end of that month. The plans will be communicated widely in early January

We all have the chance at this most oppertune time to put forward plans for the future, as this Health Plan from the KC will be sent in the next few weeks for our urgent consideration

1. Have all Breed Clubs a date for this meeting in early Dec?

2. Any requests for discussion MUST go to Breed Clubs before this meeting

At Northern Counties we have the meeting scheduled for 13th December so any input for discussion PLEASE ASK and as Health Officer i will make sure this is discussed

We have had numerous questions regarding a HEALTH SURVEY, the KC study was done in 2004 and revieved by Cathie at the Congress

quote Natalias post regarding this and Cathie can elaborate when requested

This has been sent by the KC to all clubs along with the request to adopt the new KC code of ethics

If I was to choose just one thing to test in whippets, I would choose heart.

British health survey presented by Cathie at the Congress shows that cardio issues are the first cause of death in whippets despite old age, as many as 13,8% die because of heart problem, and the average age of diagnosis is below 7 years, which is far to early to say "one must die of something". It means statistically you have a good chance to find affected puppy in each litter.

Whippets are also at the very high 8. rank in OFA ranking for heart diseases, above boxers, dobermanns and other breeds, considered being at risk.

We all have questions regarding the best way forward to keep the breed healthy

1..Genetic health diversity the way forward

2..Testing for hearts eyes and ears

3.. Health survey

4. Health Database

5.Genetic education

We need your imput at Breed Club Level

We need the date of Breed Club meetings to get members imput

NCWC 13th December email sec. pajenda@aol.com

HO pencleave@hotmail.co.uk
 
Blimey im underwhelmed with info from Breed Committes and members all i can hope is you have all already done it !!!!
 
jayp said:
Whippets are also at the very high 8. rank in OFA ranking for heart diseases, above boxers, dobermanns and other breeds, considered being at risk.

[SIZE=14pt][/SIZE]
Click to expand...
Interestingly they are 3 places below HYBRID - whatever happened to Hybrid Vigour? So many posts are quoting 'statistics' such as this - I wonder what criteria is being used and what validation has been done. This is a major problem when (or if) asking people who breed / own Whippets whether they have had any problems. What I consider a problem may be considered normal elsewhere and vice versa. Without definitive data the figures mean little. As to where the definitive data comes is a problem in itself. Patsy & Roger have gone to the specialists others may have only spoken with their most local vet who may not have the experience with Longdogs in general nor Whippets in particular.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
dawn said:
jayp said:
Whippets are also at the very high 8. rank in OFA ranking for heart diseases, above boxers, dobermanns and other breeds, considered being at risk.

[SIZE=14pt][/SIZE]
Click to expand...
Interestingly they are 3 places below HYBRID - whatever happened to Hybrid Vigour? So many posts are quoting 'statistics' such as this - I wonder what criteria is being used and what validation has been done. This is a major problem when (or if) asking people who breed / own Whippets whether they have had any problems. What I consider a problem may be considered normal elsewhere and vice versa. Without definitive data the figures mean little. As to where the definitive data comes is a problem in itself. Patsy & Roger have gone to the specialists others may have only spoken with their most local vet who may not have the experience with Longdogs in general nor Whippets in particular.

Click to expand...

I say good luck in finding someone who is not only a cardiologist, but a specialist in Whippets.

There are very very few Whippets who have had all the available testing and screening in relation to hearts. It's only been ill dogs that have come in, not people wanting the screening done for future breeding information / health welfare. If im being honest, i don't see this shooting up at too much of fast pace due to the costs involved.

We went to a respected and experienced cardiologist but they just don't get Whippets coming in for the testing we had. So therefore, all the tests can be done to establish a healthy heart and to check for disease, as well as the more basic ECG's etc. However, some readings are extremely difficult to interpret because the data simply doesn't exist in any volume to make comparisons to.
 
A hybrid is actually a cross between two different species such as a horse and a donkey, all breeds of canine are the same species so are simply crossbreeds and not hybrids Therefore they can and do have the same diseases, the cross can produce any disease the parent may carry Cross a lab and a Gsd and get hip dysplasia

The first part of the post by Natalia is the most relavent as it concerns the results from the KC health survey which they will use to formulate their breed health plans. Cardiac is the 2nd highest cause of death after "old age" 13.8%
 
the average age of diagnosis is below 7 years,

that is only the diagnosis , at what age do these dogs die because of the heart disease and has it been proven to be heriditary heart disease ? a dog may be diagnosed with minor heart trouble aged 7 but go on to live another 5 years with no problems .

are there any statistics regarding these figures ?

edited to say i agree with doing whatever tests needed to ensure the health of the breed but i am curiouse as to hard facts too :thumbsup:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Firstly, you don't need a specialist in whippets. A cardiac canine specialist is just that - someone who specialises in canine hearts of all breeds and the various diseases. Cardiac disease in the UK is the same as in any other country.

Cardiac clinics regularly occur in the USA and also here in Australia so it's not difficult for specialists to share information and develop data on a breed if that's deemed necessary.

Secondly, cardiac specialists only diagnose. If there is sufficient affected dogs, then the geneticists become involved.

Knee jerk reactions, pointing fingers or heads in the sand are a waste of energy and divisive. :rant: We are hearing about more infected dogs probably because today's dogs go to vets more often, vets are more specialised (I have an equine vet buying one of my pups and she is relying on my companion animal vet to health check the pup), diagnosis of diseases and medication and surgery is better than ever. Longevity isn't a guarantee that a dog is necessarily healthy.

Setting up a health registry is the first step. Testing and data collection comes next. Statistics are then produced.

With the anti dog lobby and designer dog breeders spouting hybrid vigour, it is encumbent on us all to start testing (before it is forced on us) so we can promote and prove :thumbsup: our breed as being healthy.

Good luck in setting up a health registry. Cathy has lots of infor and I know she could be of great help.

Cheers
 
The British Boxer Club on 30th November has a Heart Testing Session

at it's open show.

This is being held at Steventon Village Hall, Steventon, Nr Didcot, Oxon.

The session is from 9am to 1pm

If you want any further information on who the cardiologist is etc

please contact the club's secretary Mrs Marion Seeney

01235 - 835207

This club will accept other breeds to be heart tested but not sure how many dogs can be tested in a session so might be worth phoning Marion in advance.

Hope this helps anyone that is thinking of getting their dogs heart tested.

I'm getting my two Boxer youngsters heart tested here now they are old enough to go on our breeds heart test list if they achieve clear status grades (my own vet is a cardiologist and has graded them both with clear grades) So I really have everything crossed that both girls get a clear certificate.

Kirstine
 
Ridgesetter said:
Firstly, you don't need a specialist in whippets.  A cardiac canine specialist is just that - someone who specialises in canine hearts of all breeds and the various diseases.  Cardiac disease in the UK is the same as in any other country.
Cardiac clinics regularly occur in the USA and also here in Australia so it's not difficult for specialists to share information and develop data on a breed if that's deemed necessary. 

Secondly, cardiac specialists only diagnose.  If there is sufficient affected dogs, then the geneticists become involved.

Knee jerk reactions, pointing fingers or heads in the sand are a waste of energy and divisive.  :rant:   We are hearing about more infected dogs probably because today's dogs go to vets more often, vets are more specialised (I have an equine vet buying one of my pups and she is relying on my companion animal vet to health check the pup), diagnosis of diseases and medication and surgery is better than ever.  Longevity isn't a guarantee that a dog is necessarily healthy.

Setting up a health registry is the first step.  Testing and data collection comes next.  Statistics are then produced. 

With the anti dog lobby and designer dog breeders spouting hybrid vigour, it is encumbent on us all to start testing (before it is forced on us) so we can promote and prove  :thumbsup:   our breed as being healthy. 

Good luck in setting up a health registry.  Cathy has lots of infor and I know she could be of great help.

Cheers

Click to expand...
[SIZE=14pt] Please Can you tell me exactly what these cardiac clinic's test for and what measurements and figures you are provided with.[/SIZE]

I myself saw a canine cardiologist (or the bitches did anyway ;) )

Yes, of course the cardiologist checked for disease and was obviously perfectly capable of doing so, but by their own admission, hadn't really seen healthy Whippets coming in for testing. To be honest i think they thought i was slightly mad requesting expensive tests for apparent healthy animals. Therefore, for some readings, there is not a lot for even the experts to compare to. The data is there in abundance for other breeds, but not for Whippets.

Obviously when more people have the tests done, we can set up a database and will get a much better picture of the range, mean etc that Whippets fall under for specific measurements.

I hope this makes sense
 
jok said:
[SIZE=14pt] Please Can you tell me exactly what these cardiac clinic's test for and what measurements and figures you are provided with.[/SIZE]
I myself saw a canine cardiologist (or the bitches did anyway ;) )

Yes, of course the cardiologist checked for disease and was obviously perfectly capable of doing so, but by their own admission, hadn't really seen healthy Whippets coming in for testing.  To be honest i think they thought i was slightly mad requesting expensive tests for apparent healthy animals.  Therefore, for some readings, there is not a lot for even the experts to compare to.  The data is there in abundance for other breeds, but not for Whippets.

Obviously when more people have the tests done, we can set up a database and will get a much better picture of the range, mean etc that Whippets fall under for specific measurements.

I hope this makes sense

Click to expand...

It makes complete sense to me:

A veterinary cardiologist is an exceptionally highly trained specialist. They know cardiac physiology and the potential pathology backwards. They have equipment and training that is second to none - truly - much of the training is done with human cardiologists - a heart is a heart is a heart and the surgery/medicine is equivalent across most species of mammals - and they have their ears 'tuned' to listen to things that the rest of us mortals can barely hear - and I speak as an anaesthetist who thought she was pretty shit hot at hearts, but still called in the cardio people when things really went bad in theatre.

So: they can listen and look. They can run and ECG and ultrasound. But particularly for the latter, without a range of normals, it's hard to know what's 'within normal limits' for the breed.

Rhythm abnormalities are relatively easy to spot although some of them are intermittent and it requires a 24 hours ECG to see them - the dog wears a 'pack' that collects the data which is then streamed out back at the clinic and can be examined. SO if the problem being sought is a problem of electrical conductivity, then you can be sure of finding it.

Big holes in the heart causing murmurs and flow disruption are likewise relatively easy to find and they're fairly black and white -a hole in the wrong place is never normal, so to speak.

but other things depend on knowing the normals and so can be more difficult.

SO what's needed is a list of LIKELY conditions - what is is that Whippets might have that needs to be found.

When the cardiologist has that, then they can begin to assess each dog/bitch on that basis - and the geneticists can begin to tell us what the heritability is likely to be.

(note, I have oversimplified bits of this - the unsimplified version takes reams of very large text books and there would be copyright issues... :- " )

I may be looking in the wrong places, but - as was asked above - I'm still not clear what it is everyone is looking for? Without this, it's going to be very, very hard to interpret the answers.

m
 
[SIZE=14pt] Please Can you tell me exactly what these cardiac clinic's test for and what measurements and figures you are provided with.[/SIZE]I




As posted, many breed clubs organise cardiac clinics. They are open to a specific number of dogs on the day. The cardiac specialist checks each dog and if in his/her opinion the dog is okay, issues a certificate to that effect. If the specialist detects any abnormality / murmur, the dog is referred for further tests.

Many breed clubs require the certification before they will allow a litter on their puppy registries or for some breeds, registration of a litter by the canine control.

To be honest, I don't know that owners are given specific information from the clinics. All anyone wants to know is that their dog is clear.

When we have had murmurs detected in puppies, I haven't bothered with ECG's but go straight for a dopplar ultrasound. Yes, more expensive but much more definitive for diagnosis. It shows the heart, position, thickness of walls, size of the valves, arteries, measures blood flow and the passage of the blood through the heart which then leads to diagnosis and long term prognosis.

You have to think of all this as we do for ourselves. We go to doctors for a check up and naturally, doctors check hearts, BP, etc. If the doctor finds anything abnormal, the next step is a specialist.

Please don't believe that testing our dogs is a magical solution. It's just a step in the breeding process. Many breeds have been screening for HD, OCD, PRA, etc. and have produced a disease after many years of clear results. I know a breeder who bred a litter with no hip sockets from a line of dogs with fantastic low hip scores. Diseases will always be there and sometimes nature throws curved balls without explanation. Testing just identifies and confirms the presence or non presence of a disease.

You may be better organising a club meeting and asking a cardiac specialist to come along and answer your questions - age to test, what cardiac diseases are there, modes of inheritance, what's involved in certification, who manages the information, what happens if a dog isn't clear, what to do if a specific problem becomes apparent in the breed, etc. I'm positive they will be happy to do so.

Cheers
 
Ridgesetter said:
[SIZE=14pt] Please Can you tell me exactly what these cardiac clinic's test for and what measurements and figures you are provided with.[/SIZE]I

Click to expand...
As posted, many breed clubs organise cardiac clinics. They are open to a specific number of dogs on the day. The cardiac specialist checks each dog and if in his/her opinion the dog is okay, issues a certificate to that effect. If the specialist detects any abnormality / murmur, the dog is referred for further tests.

Many breed clubs require the certification before they will allow a litter on their puppy registries or for some breeds, registration of a litter by the canine control.

To be honest, I don't know that owners are given specific information from the clinics. All anyone wants to know is that their dog is clear.

When we have had murmurs detected in puppies, I haven't bothered with ECG's but go straight for a dopplar ultrasound. Yes, more expensive but much more definitive for diagnosis. It shows the heart, position, thickness of walls, size of the valves, arteries, measures blood flow and the passage of the blood through the heart which then leads to diagnosis and long term prognosis.

You have to think of all this as we do for ourselves. We go to doctors for a check up and naturally, doctors check hearts, BP, etc. If the doctor finds anything abnormal, the next step is a specialist.

Please don't believe that testing our dogs is a magical solution. It's just a step in the breeding process. Many breeds have been screening for HD, OCD, PRA, etc. and have produced a disease after many years of clear results. I know a breeder who bred a litter with no hip sockets from a line of dogs with fantastic low hip scores. Diseases will always be there and sometimes nature throws curved balls without explanation. Testing just identifies and confirms the presence or non presence of a disease.

You may be better organising a club meeting and asking a cardiac specialist to come along and answer your questions - age to test, what cardiac diseases are there, modes of inheritance, what's involved in certification, who manages the information, what happens if a dog isn't clear, what to do if a specific problem becomes apparent in the breed, etc. I'm positive they will be happy to do so.

Cheers





Thank you for your response. It was the full scan / ultrasound plus x-ray we had in addition to the basic 'cardiac clinic' style test and we did see a canine cardiologist. However, as i stated above, there is very little data in relation to Whippets for some of the measurements that the full testing provides. This is because healthy Whippets have simply not been in for testing. The cardiologist seemed to think i was slightly mad wanting to pay out a lot of money to check a healthy dog.
 
jok said:
Ridgesetter said:
Firstly, you don't need a specialist in whippets.  A cardiac canine specialist is just that - someone who specialises in canine hearts of all breeds and the various diseases.  Cardiac disease in the UK is the same as in any other country.
Cardiac clinics regularly occur in the USA and also here in Australia so it's not difficult for specialists to share information and develop data on a breed if that's deemed necessary. 

Secondly, cardiac specialists only diagnose.  If there is sufficient affected dogs, then the geneticists become involved.

Knee jerk reactions, pointing fingers or heads in the sand are a waste of energy and divisive.   :rant:   We are hearing about more infected dogs probably because today's dogs go to vets more often, vets are more specialised (I have an equine vet buying one of my pups and she is relying on my companion animal vet to health check the pup), diagnosis of diseases and medication and surgery is better than ever.  Longevity isn't a guarantee that a dog is necessarily healthy.

Setting up a health registry is the first step.  Testing and data collection comes next.  Statistics are then produced. 

With the anti dog lobby and designer dog breeders spouting hybrid vigour, it is encumbent on us all to start testing (before it is forced on us) so we can promote and prove  :thumbsup:    our breed as being healthy. 

Good luck in setting up a health registry.  Cathy has lots of infor and I know she could be of great help.

Cheers

Click to expand...
[SIZE=14pt] Please Can you tell me exactly what these cardiac clinic's test for and what measurements and figures you are provided with.[/SIZE]

I myself saw a canine cardiologist (or the bitches did anyway ;) )

Yes, of course the cardiologist checked for disease and was obviously perfectly capable of doing so, but by their own admission, hadn't really seen healthy Whippets coming in for testing. To be honest i think they thought i was slightly mad requesting expensive tests for apparent healthy animals. Therefore, for some readings, there is not a lot for even the experts to compare to. The data is there in abundance for other breeds, but not for Whippets.

Obviously when more people have the tests done, we can set up a database and will get a much better picture of the range, mean etc that Whippets fall under for specific measurements.

I hope this makes sense

Click to expand...
I have just heard from Roger that he has spoken to you after he had been in touch with Paddy Mannion and your bitch's reading on the velocity flow into the aorta is totally acceptable. Thanks to Paddy I hope that this has put your mind at rest.
 
Thanks Patsy.

I know Jo and I are very grateful to have been able to get advice from Roger as I think Dexter and Ruby are the only whippets (that we know of anyway) to have had these extensive tests. With Paddy having plenty of experience with sighthounds and therefore a source of comparison it has been a god send as our cardiologist could only compare to other breeds.

Nice to know that she is a normal healthy whippet! :huggles:
 
It would be extremely useful to have test results made available or shared so that comparative values are available for the use of the vets testing our whippets.

There is a very good document from research carried out in Belgium which gives useful parameters, but the more the better. I personally like to have a good understanding of the meaning of any results. A bunch of figures and an OK or otherwise from a non-sighthound specialist cardiologist does not seem to be necessarily as valuable as one might suppose.

Jo and Rachel's experience could prove very useful. Thanks girls.

Cathie
 
I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to get in touch with The Whippet Health Foundation who is doing this in the US and getting some feedback from them what they've found, on what is normal for whippets etc, to help give us a baseline to look for. Maybe they would be willing to help interpret our results - see how they compare etc...

Just a thought.
 
dragonfly said:
It would be extremely useful to have test results made available or shared so that comparative values are available for the use of the vets testing our whippets.
There is a very good document from research carried out in Belgium which gives useful parameters, but the more the better. I personally like to have a good understanding of the meaning of any results. A bunch of figures and an OK or otherwise  from a non-sighthound  specialist cardiologist does not seem to be necessarily as valuable as one might suppose.

Jo and Rachel's experience could prove very useful. Thanks girls.

Cathie

Click to expand...
Jo and I are more than happy to share Ruby's results or if any one would like them as a comparison for their whippets tests then if you just ask then we can sort something out.

It would be great if we could have someone to store them all as these tests become more common place in the future :thumbsup:
 
chelynnah said:
I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to get in touch with The Whippet Health Foundation who is doing this in the US and getting some feedback from them  what they've found, on what is normal for whippets etc, to help give us a baseline to look for.  Maybe they would be willing to help interpret our results - see how they compare etc...
Just a thought.

Click to expand...

Wendy i've looked and questions have been asked, although yes they do a lot more testing than us in America - the extensive testing that Ruby and Dexter have had is not common place so there isn't the stacks of data you may expect.
 
jok said:
chelynnah said:
I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to get in touch with The Whippet Health Foundation who is doing this in the US and getting some feedback from them  what they've found, on what is normal for whippets etc, to help give us a baseline to look for.  Maybe they would be willing to help interpret our results - see how they compare etc...
Just a thought.

Click to expand...

Wendy i've looked and questions have been asked, although yes they do a lot more testing than us in America - the extensive testing that Ruby and Dexter have had is not common place so there isn't the stacks of data you may expect.

Click to expand...
Actually Jo there is. It's done through The Whippet Health Foundation - which collates any data submitted to them and runs the testing (and subsidises it as well) every year at the Whippet National.

Trust me - they have the information - they have been putting this info together for the past several years. It would be good for us to tap into that resource since it is out there.

Just ask Kristen (cofeature) and Karen Lee (surreyhill) - everything that you're talking about is done in depth over there.

Wendy
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Welcome to Dog Forum!

Join our vibrant online community dedicated to all things canine. Whether you're a seasoned owner or new to the world of dogs, our forum is your go-to hub for sharing stories, seeking advice, and connecting with fellow dog lovers. From training tips to health concerns, we cover it all. Register now and unleash the full potential of your dog-loving experience!

Login or Register
Back
Top