Breeding

Dezmand said:

my youngest whippet(bo) is in season, its her second. acording to the books her next season is the ideal time for her to have pups but is this still a bit too young?also how do i pick a stud dog. She is a blue whippet, descended from laguna lines and sooty sam. if that sounds right to anyone. Do i need to find out where the studs come from so they are not too closely related, and when should we start looking. because we would like to have it all organised for her next season. Is there a set amount of weeks between seasons. Any other advise would be grateful as we have never had a dog before and would like this to go ok. thanks.

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Physicaly the books might well be right in it being the ideal time to mate a bitch. however mentally sometimes they are a bit immature at the age of your bitch. Also at such a young age it's not easy to tell if the bitch truthfully has attributes worth propagating. We have a few dogs and bitches but the majority will never be used for mating.

It's worth makinga considered choice of stud dogs. Ultimatley it will be your choice but you ought to be able to satisfy yourself it's a good choice and if you can't you perhaps should wait until your research is complete in this respect.

You have plenty of time to breed from this bitch. IMO the clock isn't ticking for being to old until past 5yrs for a first litter.

Lining the bitch to have pups is not without risk; My experience is limited to 8 litters and of those 4 have gone without any sort of problems. My first litter went overtime and the bitch ended up being induced and the first pup I ever whelped was born in a layby on the way home - after that the rest of the litter and their rearing was trouble free. Second litter produced a deformed pup that the bitch rejected and died and dead pups are distressing to most owners. Next three litters went without any problems. Sixth litter had one still born pup and a low weight pup that died after one day dispite being with it all the time which again is upsetting. Seventh litter was an accident and the bitch needed a C-section; pups and mother were fine although one of the pups needed a lot of attention for a couple of days. It's worth pointing out at this time that nearly all the people I know that have bred regularly over a long period of time have experience of the bitch dying. It's a small but real risk, say 5%. Our recent litter we lost one pup still born but it could have been worse as it was looking like a trip to the vet for a C-section. Again we had a couple of low weight pups that took 24hr care ( which is incredibly exhausting) for a few days.

I've been fortunate in that since I've kept at least 2 pups from every litter finding good homes has never been a problem as litter sizes have been small. I've known the whereabouts of nearly all my pups till present day or the end of their natural lives. However finding good homes needs consideration. Imagine how you would feel if one of the pups turns out to have been mistreated.

Given the potential heartache in lost pups and mother, cost ( and if it's a C-section you may find each pup you are left with has cost you £1000 before it leaves) and time you have to REALLY want a pup from the bitch to consider breeding.

I've brought quite a few pups into the world, I remember handrearing pups as a young teenager under my Mum's guidance and only 2 weeks ago I helped our bitch bring her litter of newborns into the world. I have a lot of experience, a lot of happy stories and unfortunately a lot of sad stories too.

I know ultimately from threads I've seen on here time and time again that you will choose to do whatever you want to do regardless of other people's opinions.

However, the reason many ask about breeding for a purpose is because when it all goes arse up (which it can) you can in some small way justify why you chose to line your bitch in the first place.

You say you would like a pup from your bitch, bear in mind you will not get a replica, you will get 50% of what you've got now and 50% of another dog that you may not know anything about.

In our case, we bred for racing. My partner's bitch comes from a lineage of his own kennels spanning generatios, he is well aware of the attributes and the faults within his own breeding, not just in his bitch but in the siblings and the bitches parentage. Our choice of stud dog was chosen based on abilities, his breedlines, his offspring and the big swaying factor with us personally was the dogs ability to stay relatively injury free well into his veteran racing career.

With such forethought, I'm sure you can appreciate why these pups have secured homes already and being the critical person I can be these homes are the best I could possibly want for.

If you choose to breed, you need to look at not just your bitch but their breeding and their health and the same applies to the parentage and siblings. You need to do your homework on this because hanging on the coat tails of Sooty Sam or Laguna dogs does not make your future pups any more worthier than any of the other pups that will be advertised all over the country with the same breeding. These lines are prolific in pedigree whippets but do not take my word for this, look for yourself then make your own decision.

Because there are so many dogs bred similarly, you have the potential to unwittingly inbreed faults into your pups, even if the faults were not apparent in any of the parents. If you are so determined, I would encourage you to approach someone who owns a stud who has a lot of experience and has been breeding for a purpose for a long time. i.e. an established show kennels, racing kennels - whichever discipline your bitch's lines have come from. By having someone in the know onboard I would hope that a) they'd be responsible enough to direct you appropiately on breeding your bitch and b) I would hope that if your bitch was seen good enough for their stud dog to line, they'd be able to refer potential puppy homes to you. Finding such a responsible person should involve you attending events where you can meet a wealth of experienced dog owners and observe the abilities of those potential stud dogs.

This may all seem like a polava but this is what I would do if I was hellbound on breeding and I was in your situation.

I'm not trying to make a wall here for you either, I have a champion racing whippet who is quite possibly the best dog I've ever owned, his character is outstanding and his abilities too but I'm experienced enough to know that breeding a ''mini-me'' just doesn't work like that. They're like people, everyone is different, for better and for worse.

I really don't care what you choose to do, as I said it is your decision and ultimately your the one who will live with it but I have to point out the woes of whelping because (certainly for me personally) they run deep.

Last week when Amber went into whelp she initially had 3 pups all well and suckling. Then I noticed a bag rupture and a placenta pass with no pup. Obviously concerned I contacted my vet (god knows why cause I knew the score) Anyway I went to try and recover the pup because time was of the essence. The pup was alive and trying to suckle my fingers, it was also massive. We eventually recovered the pup but born dead - the same would of occured by the time I got her to the vets so it was a hopeless situation which broke my heart.

Caeserians are a likely possibility. They can be expensive, risky and fatalities involved. About a year ago I assisted a vet with my friends bitch and we lost some pups. I cannot convey the upset it caused for me seeing pups being disposed of and while the bitch (who went through hell) did thankfully have 3 pups that were alive and well and are growing up to be beautiful young dogs, there isn't a day when I see them that I don't think about their siblings and wonder what they'd be like now.

There's also the potential for the bitch once roused from the anaesthetic to reject her pups (probably more so with a maiden bitch) which brings me onto handrearing. Feeding pups every hour of the day is exhausting. I'm only just recovering from last weeks trauma and this was with 2 suckling pups that just had low birth weights. When they're sickly, failing to suckle and doing the death cry - it is soul destroying. On the other side of the coin, if they pull through, you are elated and oh so happy when they start to thrive.

I've seen a lot in my life so far, still born puppies, fading puppy syndrome, deformities - all kinds of things. I know those less experienced will think I'm all doom and gloom, maybe so but in time the worst will happen to others and instead of looking at my post as negative they'll see it as a more honest and realistic one.

If you do choose to breed, I won't condone you. I'm the type of person who regardless of what I think of people will do my best for the well being of the dog. As such if you want any advice or support, I will gladly help for the benefit of your bitch and their pups but ultimately if you want to do the best for your bitch then you won't breed from her. If it helps, you should bear in mind that I too have a bitch and 2 dogs (all pedigree whippets) that I'll never breed from because I feel I cannot possibly justify breeding from them even though they're well bred, healthy and of wonderful character.

Whatever you decide, I sincerely wish you the best of luck with your bitch in the future. :luck:

What an excellent, honest and well thought out reply, wild whippies.

It doesn't sound negative, just realistic, and I applaud you for being so straightforward about the pros and cons of breeding :thumbsup:

bertha said:

Esty said:

Who has suggested getting a rescue? I said lots of dogs need homes but that was to show how hard it might to get homes for pups , not suggesting Dezmand gets a rescue... People can still have intelligent opinions without having bred dogs themselves.
I'm an English teacher but I would say you can't tell me whether a book is good or not, just because you don't have the experience I have. You are still entitled to your opinion.

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I don't understand what you are on about. Nobody mentioned rescue.

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AnnSa did.....she said that inexperienced peope are telling others to get a rescue.

themetalchicken said:

AnnSa said:

Do you know it always amaze's me the amount of people whocome on here with their new whippet pups and 5 minutes later

they are giving advice on breeding and telling people to go get

a rescue.........i wish i knew the lot in 5 minutes like they seem

to......

Valid advice comes from people who know what they are talking

about, leave it to them.

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Sorry Ann, I'm confused. Are you saying that people who buy from breeders shouldn't advise others to rescue rather than breed puppies for people to buy. Or that people who have only had a whippet for 5 minutes shouldn't offer advice? A lot of people new to whippets have been involved with other breeds for years. And a lot who buy puppies also rescue or have done in the past. Doesn't take much to confuse me lol

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I think she was saying that people like me, and perhaps Noise, shouldn't be offering advice becasue of our age or our dogs' ages... :unsure:

Speaking for myself, just because I'm new to whippets doesn't mean I'm new to dogs, and I have raised a litter of ten pups, hand feeding to supplement the bitches milk so I do think I'm qualified to answer. I've also had dogs all my childhood and part of my adult life. I'm also an intelligent person with a right to an opinion, as is Noise! Perhaps AnnSa was having an off day...

Glad you've clarified it as well- 'tis right that just because people are new to whippets doesn't make them a moron...

June Jonigk said:

Noise said:

AnnSa said:

Do you know it always amaze's me the amount of people whocome on here with their new whippet pups and 5 minutes later

they are giving advice on breeding and telling people to go get

a rescue.........i wish i knew the lot in 5 minutes like they seem

to......

Valid advice comes from people who know what they are talking

about, leave it to them.

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at the same time you don't have to have been involved with a breed for X or XX number of years to know what's right or wrong, and the fact that you have been involved for XX years does not automatically mean you can raise a fantastic litter (taking into account the exchanges on the showing section) or X years and you'll breed mutants who end up in rescue.

maybe a list should be drawn up with names who qualifies to answer what question so in future the wrong people don't rush to offer advice or their opinion.

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Trouble is there are loads of people who think they know everything just because they are a certain age, and have been around for a while :lol:

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to me nobody knows everything as you are always learning something new everyday i have been in dogs showing and breeding for over 40 years and still i learn things about my own breed and other breeds

Esty said:

I think she was saying that people like me, and perhaps Noise, shouldn't be offering advice becasue of our age or our dogs' ages... :unsure: Speaking for myself, just because I'm new to whippets doesn't mean I'm new to dogs, and I have raised a litter of ten pups, hand feeding to supplement the bitches milk so I do think I'm qualified to answer. I've also had dogs all my childhood and part of my adult life. I'm also an intelligent person with a right to an opinion, as is Noise! Perhaps AnnSa was having an off day...

Glad you've clarified it as well- 'tis right that just because people are new to whippets doesn't make them a moron...

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I mean't people with experience with the problem/question asked should be giving advice.

The OP then has first hand advice to read over and see what apply's or can help in their

situation. Which to me makes sense. And no, i wasn't having an off day either, thank you.

 

I didn't give names, i never mentioned age, i never said anything about Morons !

Your the one getting all worked up and now your going around trying to quote every

one like its some sort of taking sides game..........drawing attention to yourself over

what you think i meant......Calm Down

This isn't a discussion about who is suitable for giving advice and is going off topic. It is possible to breed ten litters in 20 years but if they've all been plain flying, the owner may have learnt nothing about whelping. If you've bred one alone, yes it may be a limited experience but if it had problems maybe you learnt something from them that's useful advice for a complete novice.

I've met individuals who are nothing short of puppy farmers, you'd think their knowledge would be extensive too but they really don't care about the casulties along the way and so learn nothing.

Bringing pups into the world doesn't stop when they're 8 weeks old though and it will tend to be those who've been involved in dogs for several years that will know how future faults occur and also what can come back and bite you in the arse. These are the people who the poster should be approaching for advice regarding a stud dog but no person should feel intimdated from posting regardless of their years in the game if they've learnt something that they can share.

No-one should be professing their expertise because like Liza said there's always something new to learn and the only way we all learn is from sharing our advice and our experiences.

wild whippies said:

This isn't a discussion about who is suitable for giving advice and is going off topic. It is possible to breed ten litters in 20 years but if they've all been plain flying, the owner may have learnt nothing about whelping. If you've bred one alone, yes it may be a limited experience but if it had problems maybe you learnt something from them that's useful advice for a complete novice. I've met individuals who are nothing short of puppy farmers, you'd think their knowledge would be extensive too but they really don't care about the casulties along the way and so learn nothing.

Bringing pups into the world doesn't stop when they're 8 weeks old though and it will tend to be those who've been involved in dogs for several years that will know how future faults occur and also what can come back and bite you in the arse. These are the people who the poster should be approaching for advice regarding a stud dog but no person should feel intimdated from posting regardless of their years in the game if they've learnt something that they can share.

No-one should be professing their expertise because like Liza said there's always something new to learn and the only way we all learn is from sharing our advice and our experiences.

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Well said, nobody knows it all and age has nothing to do with it as a certain person is suggesting! All of us who have been in whippets, breeding, showing etc are always learning, it never stops, not if you care.

wild whippies said:

This isn't a discussion about who is suitable for giving advice and is going off topic. It is possible to breed ten litters in 20 years but if they've all been plain flying, the owner may have learnt nothing about whelping. If you've bred one alone, yes it may be a limited experience but if it had problems maybe you learnt something from them that's useful advice for a complete novice. I've met individuals who are nothing short of puppy farmers, you'd think their knowledge would be extensive too but they really don't care about the casulties along the way and so learn nothing.

Bringing pups into the world doesn't stop when they're 8 weeks old though and it will tend to be those who've been involved in dogs for several years that will know how future faults occur and also what can come back and bite you in the arse. These are the people who the poster should be approaching for advice regarding a stud dog but no person should feel intimdated from posting regardless of their years in the game if they've learnt something that they can share.

No-one should be professing their expertise because like Liza said there's always something new to learn and the only way we all learn is from sharing our advice and our experiences.

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Well isn't this exactly what i have said in my post ?

granted in a different way but the same message.....

bertha said:

wild whippies said:

This isn't a discussion about who is suitable for giving advice and is going off topic. It is possible to breed ten litters in 20 years but if they've all been plain flying, the owner may have learnt nothing about whelping. If you've bred one alone, yes it may be a limited experience but if it had problems maybe you learnt something from them that's useful advice for a complete novice. I've met individuals who are nothing short of puppy farmers, you'd think their knowledge would be extensive too but they really don't care about the casulties along the way and so learn nothing.

Bringing pups into the world doesn't stop when they're 8 weeks old though and it will tend to be those who've been involved in dogs for several years that will know how future faults occur and also what can come back and bite you in the arse. These are the people who the poster should be approaching for advice regarding a stud dog but no person should feel intimdated from posting regardless of their years in the game if they've learnt something that they can share.

No-one should be professing their expertise because like Liza said there's always something new to learn and the only way we all learn is from sharing our advice and our experiences.

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Well said, nobody knows it all and age has nothing to do with it as a certain person is suggesting! All of us who have been in whippets, breeding, showing etc are always learning, it never stops, not if you care.

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I couldn't agree more with these two posts. You can have one years' experience of something and learn a lot and 40 times one years' experience of something and never progress. This year it is 50 years since we got our first whippet and there is so much more I want to know about the breed, so much more for me to learn. With regard to breeding, I don't. There is no reason to think that I would make a better job of it than the people who do breed and who I have a deep respect for, neither is there any reason to believe that I would love and care for my dogs any more than I do because I bred them. Please think carefully about breeding, I have never yet seen a bitch lying on the settee sighing for the want of a litter, but I have been aware of plenty of whippets with no settee to lie on !

Jenny

liza said:

to me nobody knows everything as you are always learning something new everyday i have been in dogs showing and breeding for over 40 years and still i learn things about my own breed and other breeds

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Well said - also, just because someone has been in the breed xx? years, does not mean they know much - some people can learn, others can't. Also, surely it is better to advise the OP than let them get it totally wrong because a few don't think anybody else has the right to breed a litter? How else can people learn if more knowledgeble people don't help?

AnnSa said:

Esty said:

I think she was saying that people like me, and perhaps Noise, shouldn't be offering advice becasue of our age or our dogs' ages... :unsure: Speaking for myself, just because I'm new to whippets doesn't mean I'm new to dogs, and I have raised a litter of ten pups, hand feeding to supplement the bitches milk so I do think I'm qualified to answer. I've also had dogs all my childhood and part of my adult life. I'm also an intelligent person with a right to an opinion, as is Noise! Perhaps AnnSa was having an off day...

Glad you've clarified it as well- 'tis right that just because people are new to whippets doesn't make them a moron...

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I mean't people with experience with the problem/question asked should be giving advice.

The OP then has first hand advice to read over and see what apply's or can help in their

situation. Which to me makes sense. And no, i wasn't having an off day either, thank you.

 

I didn't give names, i never mentioned age, i never said anything about Morons !

Your the one getting all worked up and now your going around trying to quote every

one like its some sort of taking sides game..........drawing attention to yourself over

what you think i meant......Calm Down

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Sorry to nick your thread here, Dezmand, but before I give up on K9 completely, would AnnSa like to clarify who she was referring to because there are only a couple of us above her first post who have asked questions about puppies in the past. I'm not trying to take sides, or get people to take sides, merely clarify. Dezmand asked a question, which Ann hasn't answered either, she just kinda waded in with assumptions that some people didn't have relevant experience without knowing much about them.

And it might be a trite point about drawing attention, but I don't write in bright red. :blink:

As long as the advice is given is sensible, sound and not irresposible does it really matter who gives it.

But then who am i say what is or isnt (dolly running and ducking for cover)

Esty said:

And it might be a trite point about drawing attention, but I don't write in bright red. :blink:

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I write in Red as it goes with my signature.......matches nicely.

To be honest your being that childish now and really dont any

more to do with you or stupid comments

PLease don't fall out ladies. :b I enjoy your posts on K9 and would hate to think one of you felt offended enough to leave.

Thanks, Nicola.

The thing is, I agree that people who know what they are talking about should answer the OP's question, so in a way agree with AnnSa. But she was definitely having a go at someone in her first post on this thread:- whether me or someone else, that's quite judgemental and not nice. I replied to her post because I don't like to see things that are unfair, not because I was in any way trying to 'draw attention to myself.' Anyone who reads my stuff on here or is my friend on facebook knows that's just not my style.

Dezmand asked for info on breeding, and I think it would be irresponsible if we all just said, 'go for it, lad' rather than pointing out the cons as well as the pro's. As far as I can see, that's all the first few posters were saying - make sure you go into it with your eyes open. As someone who has bred a litter in the past, I thought myself qualified to offer an opinion.

I hate it when things get blown up like this - leaves a bad taste in the mouth and makes me think twice about posting anything.

Esty said:

Thanks, Nicola. The thing is, I agree that people who know what they are talking about should answer the OP's question, so in a way agree with AnnSa. But she was definitely having a go at someone in her first post on this thread:- whether me or someone else, that's quite judgemental and not nice. I replied to her post because I don't like to see things that are unfair, not because I was in any way trying to 'draw attention to myself.' Anyone who reads my stuff on here or is my friend on facebook knows that's just not my style.

Dezmand asked for info on breeding, and I think it would be irresponsible if we all just said, 'go for it, lad' rather than pointing out the cons as well as the pro's. As far as I can see, that's all the first few posters were saying - make sure you go into it with your eyes open. As someone who has bred a litter in the past, I thought myself qualified to offer an opinion.

I hate it when things get blown up like this - leaves a bad taste in the mouth and makes me think twice about posting anything.

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You brought it all on yourself! Daft thing. Forget it all now.

The OPs question was so multifaceted I think many of us will have had something to offer.

I know very little about breeding but having been active in rescue I do know how many of those who breed with the best of intentions breed pups that nonetheless find themselves in need of new homes, often more than once in their lives. It doesn't matter how much care a breeder takes when homing pups sometimes it all goes badly wrong ... not every breeder will know the whereabouts of every pup however hard they try to keep track. So anyone intending to breed has in my opinion to decide if they are happy with the possibility that a pup they bred may be passed on without their knowledge to owners less caring or scrupulous than those they originally approved, or may be euthansed when no new home can be found.

I own a blue Sooty Sam grandson with impeccable show lines on his sires side and I have lost count of the times I've been asked if he's at stud, and even been offered a sizeable (and I mean sizeable) sum of money for him after his win at Pride of the Peaks ... but he won't be making babies anytime soon if ever because being blue and a Sooty Sam grandson and gorgeous and fast, even 'proven', is not in my view enough reason to risk any pup he sired leading a less than perfect life.

I also think Dezmand that as you are by your own admission an inexperienced dog owner, and please don't take this the wrong way, you are not well placed to know just how much there is that you still need to learn (I'm not inexperienced and I'm frightened by how much I don't know) ... there's no hurry, your bitch is still very young, take your time and become more knowledgeable about dogs, whippets and breeding before taking the plunge, or not

themetalchicken said:

The OPs question was so multifaceted I think many of us will have had something to offer.
I know very little about breeding but having been active in rescue I do know how many of those who breed with the best of intentions breed pups that nonetheless find themselves in need of new homes, often more than once in their lives. It doesn't matter how much care a breeder takes when homing pups sometimes it all goes badly wrong ... not every breeder will know the whereabouts of every pup however hard they try to keep track. So anyone intending to breed has in my opinion to decide if they are happy with the possibility that a pup they bred may be passed on without their knowledge to owners less caring or scrupulous than those they originally approved, or may be euthansed when no new home can be found.

I own a blue Sooty Sam grandson with impeccable show lines on his sires side and I have lost count of the times I've been asked if he's at stud, and even been offered a sizeable (and I mean sizeable) sum of money for him after his win at Pride of the Peaks ... but he won't be making babies anytime soon if ever because being blue and a Sooty Sam grandson and gorgeous and fast, even 'proven', is not in my view enough reason to risk any pup he sired leading a less than perfect life.

I also think Dezmand that as you are by your own admission an inexperienced dog owner, and please don't take this the wrong way, you are not well placed to know just how much there is that you still need to learn (I'm not inexperienced and I'm frightened by how much I don't know) ... there's no hurry, your bitch is still very young, take your time and become more knowledgeable about dogs, whippets and breeding before taking the plunge, or not

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Good post, I still learning and always willing to help newcomers. I remember being given and taking advice from people knowing more than I did about whippets. Well known breeders and exhibitors who were only too willing to help.

That is what it is all about after all.