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8 month old Puppy Peeing on other dogs

Discussion in 'Dog Behaviour and Training' started by Cheetsy, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. Cheetsy

    Cheetsy New Member Registered

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    We've got a rescue puppy who we've had for three months. He has anxiety which we have been working on with training, plug in and supplements for his food and finally this week he seemed ready for daycare. Our secret weapon has always been other dogs as he is not nearly as anxious with humans when dogs are around, so when he went for his trial he flourished and started playing straight away. He went for his first full day yesterday and when we picked him up they said they couldn't have him back. Apparently he peed on all the other dogs, I didn't even know that was a thing!

    I know he's hit puberty and has become a bit unruly since that happened, but this extreme marking only started ironically after his puppy training class on Monday night. The class was so stressful because although I asked people not to approach him, the guy next to us and the assistant trainer insisted on trying to win him over. He comes round eventually but on his terms, the whole direct approach was too intimidating for him and I'm not sure if this was the catalyst for the week. I could be way off though, it could be just part of a hot mess week, because would his anxiety make him pee on other dogs, as everything I've read said that points to dominance? After the class he was hyper, nipping me, ripping paper and barking, then the following day he peed twice in various places then the following day at daycare. How can I socialise him and get him over the anxiety with people when he's started peeing on everything, including dogs! Any advice, experience would be appreciated.
     
  2. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    He’s 8-MO, he’s in the midst of the testosterone flood leading to the massive peak of androgen secretion IN HIS LIFETIME; he’s secreting 5 to 7 TIMES the amount of testosterone, which would be found in the bloodstream of a 12 to 15-MO intact, male dog. :eek:

    My suggestion is to neuter him immediately.
    It will virtually halt inappropriate marking / leg-lifting instantly. :)

    If anyone wants to claim this will “undermine his confidence”, I will state for the record that not one anxious dog, M or F, in all my over-40-years of dog-training, has ever “gotten worse” after neutering / castration.
    If they were bold & curious, B4, they were bold & curious, after; if they were shy & shrinking, B4, they were shy & shrinking, after. No better, no worse; same dog, same personality, but with the sexually-fueled behaviors turned down to a mutter.


    I have specialized in B-Mod since 1985, so I have had any number of shy, anxious, undersocialized, & outright neurotic dogs as clients’ dogs, & as pro bono cases from shelters or rescues, who needed B-mod before they could be listed as adoptable / available.

    Some had been actively abused by past owners or by vicious strangers; some were born timid, with genes from shy parents or grandparents. Some were feral, & as terrified of humans as any wild animal would be.

    Every one of them was desexed, M or F, of whatever age, often while I was working to make them adoptable, and ALL OF THEM improved behaviorally, & went on to become not only adoptable, but wonderful pets within the normal spectrum.
    (A few of the neurotic ones needed anti-anxiety meds, but they needed them prior to their desex surgery, not only “after” - it was their crippling psychological problems that required Rx meds to treat, not the removal of their gonads. :rolleyes: :D )

    He’s awash in androgens, & sexually fueled behaviors in male dogs are often pretty obnoxious during the super-male phase. :shrug: All his hormonally driven actions are turned up in frequency, intensity, & fluency - less prompting is needed to bring ‘em on, such as the mere presence of a F puppy under 3-MO might prompt him to mount her, even tho she’s obviously not in estrus, nor even entering puberty, yet.

    Since he’s anxious, U won’t want to use him as a sire, in any case; timidity & aggro are both highly heritable, & the sooner he’s snipped, the better. :)

    - terry

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  3. Cheetsy

    Cheetsy New Member Registered

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  4. Cheetsy

    Cheetsy New Member Registered

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    That's exactly the advice that we have been given, wait until at least 12-18 months as he needs the testosterone for his confidence! Also the vet said because he's a larger breed to wait too.

    I also thought the weeing on the other dogs was a hormone thing as there are so many female dogs at the daycare. I feel so bad for him as he loves the company of other dogs and now that seems to be out for the moment. Meanwhile he still barks at anyone approaching him and is still scared of men. A contradiction, cocky hormone fueled male to scared and timid rescue.
     
  5. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    He can be both - anxious as his usual self, AND highly sexually driven, as a direct result of the stage he’s in. :D One does not prevent the other.

    Sexual behavior isn’t “aggression” as such, it is hormonally-fueled behavior with procreation as a goal.

    That doesn’t mean sex cannot BE extremely aggressive- mallard ducks in the wild are notorious for rape, which is often a gang activity, in which the duck actually dies; drakes fighting to mount her will pile onto her, shoving & stabbing at one another, & on land, she is smothered by the weight of their bodies; on water, she drowns. :( It happens every year.
    Monk seals are critically endangered, & females are rare & precious - yet males frequently kill them, while mating.

    Ppl on psychoactive meds are often shocked & depressed to discover that their Rx affects their libido, sharply reducing desire, which has serious impacts on their spouse or partners, & their own sense of self-worth.
    But dogs do not fantasize, as humans do; they do not judge themselves on their body image, the size of their penis or their breasts, worry about their neighbors’ opinions about their trophy wife or the model & make of the car they bought...
    Nor do dogs marry, nor form monogamous pair-bonds, as do wolves in the wild; dogs are willing to mate with any available opp sex dog, & neutering them does not cause k9-depression, suicidal impulses, loss of appetite, irritability, a flat affect, etc. :)

    Neutering is simple, safe, & an effective way to quickly reduce sexually driven, hormonal behaviors.
    As he is already 8-MO, his long bones are closed - no one can say it will make him grow “too tall”, LOL. — especially as research found that brothers from the same litter, measured at 2-YO, one neutered by or before 6-mos, the other intact, varied in height no more than variation caused by sexual reproduction.

    This whole idea that “neutering causes timidity” only showed up about 4 years ago, as an unsubstantiated old husbands’ tale, on another UK forum. // In the USA, progressive shelters began pediatric desex of pups & kittens in 1972, & “pediatric” means they are neutered by or before 12-WO / 3-MO, in order to allow them to be adopted.
    By the early 1980s, pediatric desex was S.O.P. in most urban municipal shelters, here; by the mid-80s, even small-town shelters would S/N pups & kits before releasing them to adopters. None of these millions and millions of pets have become hopelessly cringing shrinking violets, post neuter.

    I have yet to see any published research to support the allegation that removing testes somehow also “removes” confidence, & IMO and across 40-plus years as a trainer, it’s unsubstantiated poppycock. :shrug:
    Fully 2/3 of my group training classes in Va Beach were dogs who’d been desexed as pups, in a shelter or by a rescue, & they did fine - both Ms & Fs. :)


    - terry

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  6. Cheetsy

    Cheetsy New Member Registered

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    That's such a refreshing read! The daycare have been back in contact to say that they would be delighted to trial him again once he's been neutered. When he has crazy outbursts even he seems surprised by his behaviour, very much like myself on hormone week. I've rang the vets who are also lovely and they have suggested that I bring him in on Tuesday so they can assess him with a view to getting him done if he's ok in their opinion. I have a shop and all my customers have said about improvement (but no guarantees after neutering). It's just the behaviourist's voice in the back of my head saying don't have him neutered, it will turn him into a mess!
     
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  7. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

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    I certainly came across the claim over 8 years ago - and I dare say it had been around longer, but that was when I got my dog. I'm not going to trade studies and opinions with LfL - suffice to say that in my experience, there is a strong consensus (including among vets and dog organisations) that early neutering can cause issues. I'm not saying LfL is wrong, I'm not saying that neutering your dog won't help, because the research evidence is complex - I'm just saying that many experts would say that.

    The dominance myth is pretty well busted, and I think what you're seeing is probably a result of overarousal from the previous day, and from the dog daycare situation, and insecurity. Think of a playground bully - they may look as if they think they are big and strong, but they feel the need to reinforce that feeling in themselves. 'Top dogs' don't need to duff up other dogs or wee on them because they are already confident.

    If puppy training results in your dog being anxious about other people and getting into a state, I would either stop going, or just go for the first half an hour (say) and then leave while he's still calm. Socialisation is all about quality, not quantity, so (for instance) you want to gradually accustom your dog to people being close. 'Close' might be 100' off to start with, or it might be 8' but ignoring him. Whenever he looks at another person you could give him a treat so he associates seeing another person with something good coming from you (so he doesn't need to approach them). Then they could throw treats to him... you get the idea (you might already get all this in which case I apologise) - you work within his comfort zone, and make sure that no one gets closer than he can deal with. Hopefully you'll end up knowing a few people who have dogs he likes to play with but who know to ignore and not approach him.

    You could try giving him a couple of calm weeks and ask the doggy day care if he could have another try - maybe you could wait outside or nearby so they could contact you and you could collect him if he's still anointing other dogs or seems stressed.
     
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  8. Cheetsy

    Cheetsy New Member Registered

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    Thank you, we are already doing that method of socialisation and I do agree about his stress building up over the days. The only thing I’m not sure about, is that you’ve not mentioned any hormonal impact from him hitting puberty? I’m sure this in part to blame for his behaviour changes or don’t you think so?
     
  9. excuseme

    excuseme Well-Known Member Registered

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  10. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

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    I expect it does - I'm not an expert, but just like human teenagers, they're going to have behavioural changes when the hormones kick in. They may want to prove how macho they are by duffing up other dogs, they may have tantrums when they want to do one thing and you want them to do something else... Reading online, marking does tend to increase at puberty. I'd guess it's a combination of hormones and stress, so it'd be interesting to see if it decreased when he's calmer, and if the dog day care staff can manage/distract him so it doesn't become a habit. Reading online it does seem that neutering would reduce it, but you need to weigh up the evidence and the possible pros and cons.
     
  11. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    Re training classes -
    will the instructor provide sight-barriers if U ask, such as 8-ft long folding tables U could work behind, which block his view of the other dogs, & their views of him?

    Or is the area large-enuf to work with him well away from any other dog, so that U can hear the instructor, but are basically working solo, at a distance where he doesn’t react?

    If he is visually reactive (& most dogs are), wearing a Calming Cap may help a lot - it is a light mesh fabric that makes anything not directly beside or before him, out of focus & fuzzy.
    Worn like fabric goggles, a Cap weighs almost nothing, & dogs quickly habituate to them.

    Like anything else, a Cap is introduced at home, as a happy thing, pairing all curious approach or interaction with small high-quality tidbits (steps toward, sniffs, nose touch, etc...),
    then U hold it for THE DOG to put their own FACE into the elastic end, reward that, then they shove their nose in & U buckle it on very briefly / reward, remove,... then they push their face in, *wear it very briefly* with multiple treats as a jackpot during the wearing, then U take it off. :)
    Let them think about that for the rest of the day, & sleep on it that night; bring it out next day, & they should instantly look interested & approach to push their face into it, for a treat. Bingo! -
    They are ready to slip it on for a brief wearing, indoors, while the house is calm or at least, normal. 2 or 3 brief wearings that day, at least one during a meal, & by the next day, they should be ready for a SHORT on-leash walk outside, while wearing the Cap.

    It may take 4 to 7 days to get him comfy wearing the Cap on walks around the neighborhood, then adding it to his wardrobe for training class, but IME it’s time well-spent. The loss of visual acuity usually reduces reactivity quite a bit, without stress to the dog, & makes B-mod much easier.

    I would also MUTE HIS TAGS - other dogs can hear him coming a mile off, as he can also hear them, b/c the jingle of tags is so distinctive & will alert them to scan for another dog.
    All behavior is a conversation, he reacts to them, they react to him, he acts to their reaction... nip it in the bud, & silence his tags with a tag-bag made for purpose, or a wide rubber band, or several wraps of masking tape. :)


    - terry

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