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Are these episodes aggressive?

Discussion in 'Puppy Forum' started by Lisa dunne, Jun 3, 2018.

  1. Lisa dunne

    Lisa dunne Member Registered

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    Hi all

    My pup Bonnie is 20 weeks ago. She still bites from time to time but is generally good and is starting to learn the ‘leave it’ technique. The problem is that she has uncontrollable excited/annoyed moments (aside from the zoomies) when she makes aggressive snarling noises I.e the kids were playing basketball and she ran to get the ball. When they tried to stop her she got crazy and snapped at them. Also the groomer said that she was not happy when they groomed her and she showed aggression. She is on her 3rd week puppy training and seems to be doing well. Will the ‘leave it take it’ technique help with this and should I be worried. Generally she has a lovely nature. She is a soppy so and so who wants to talk and play with everyone.
     
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  2. JoanneF

    JoanneF Well-Known Member Registered

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    No, not aggression. Rough and noisy play with her littermates is part of puppy behaviour and is perfectly normal. Frankly, if your groomer didn't understand that, I would be tempted to look for a more understanding groomer. With the kids and the ball, it is likely she was over excited and desperate to get the ball. Is she a spaniel though? They do have a bit of a reputation for resource guarding so that might be worth watching.

    And, my almost 8 year old had zoomies this morning and I was delighted to see him enjoying it so much!
     
  3. merlina

    merlina Well-Known Member Registered

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    I agree, she's just a puppy with bags of energy and high spirits. A decent groomer should be more aware. BUT children often don't understand they're dealing with a new little animal. I think if you've seen snappish behaviour she's feeling overwhelmed and that she has to stand up for herself. Puppy's snap through fear not aggression. After all to a puppy a child can be a frightening noisy giant! I'd make sure boisterous play is kept to a minimum - never unsupervised of course- and talk to your children about how the puppy sees the world. Children often take to the role of puppy-protector rather than competitor very well. After all you wouldn't let a baby just take its chances in a rough and tumble.
     
  4. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    re grooming, ignoring the groomer & the salon for now, how often & how thoroughly do YOU groom her?
    IOW, is she thoroughly accustomed to being up on a table, expected to stand or sit or lie down as needed, & being COMBED TANGLE-FREE CLEAR TO HER SKIN? She should be combed to the skin every day, with the mat-prone areas 4 days weekly, & less-tangly areas 3 days weekly.

    Mat-prone areas of the coat:
    - behind ears
    - petticoats & upper half of tail, nearest to her body
    - behind elbows
    - forechest to outsides, near her legs
    - under jaw near neck
    - brisket [front of ribcage]

    Areas less prone to tangle:
    - back, sides, rump in front of tail
    - straight down back of neck
    - belly, where haircoat thins-out
    - "thighs" on outside & inside

    She's 5-MO, & i don't know how long-ago U brought her home, but getting her accustomed to grooming [handling, scissors, clipper noise & vibration / heat, combs, a blow-dryer on LOW, being shifted about & standing on 3 legs, etc], is part of the puppy-rearing process.
    She needs to associate grooming with rewards for her co-operation, *short* bouts of grooming interrupted by breaks to potty, play, & rest.

    Most groomers are overbooked & stressed; they have zero extra time to habituate a pup or dog to the grooming process, it's wham, bam, done, NEXT!... & the shop hums like an assembly-line on overtime. It's up to U to make grooming pleasant, happy, & relaxing - so she can survive the salon experience without too much stress.

    I'll post some video-clips of good habituation. :)
    - terry

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  5. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

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    I wouldn't completely rule out aggression, but aggression can be no more than the equivalent of a toddler tantrum... only a toddler with sharp teeth.

    Either way, you need to avoid situations where she's likely to have this reaction. So tell the children not to take balls off her - they could try something different, like throw another ball for her so she'll leave their one or throw a few treats into the grass for her to find. You can also get them involved in teaching 'leave' or 'retrieve' in a non-confrontational way, including with their balls and other toys. Or just keep her out of the way when they're playing ball games.

    As for grooming, she may well not enjoy the experience and is expressing her feelings in the only way she knows how. I would either stop sending her to the groomer's or ask the groomer to work on desensitising her to the process (so the next visit may involve more or less no actual grooming). And in the meantime work on making grooming a pleasurable experience for her at home - LfL has plenty of good advice for that:)
     
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  6. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    sorry for the delay, we had a domestic crisis here [urine leakage], & i was very busy. :oops:

    here's a good example of the effectiveness of marker-training with dogs who "don't like" something -
    HOWEVER, do not imitate Dr Sophia's timing with the clicker, lol, b/c in brief, she sucks. :p Dr Yin is absolute proof of how forgiving pos-R training is, 'cuz if it works for her, believe me, it'll work for darn near anybody. :D
    ####################

    Dammit, ANOTHER pee-leak - that's 3 loads of laundry, 3 floors mopped & sanitized, & back to bed TWICE for my client; we're running out of blue slacks, LOL, he's picky about shirts / slax complementing each other. :rolleyes:
    I'm exhausted.
    Anyway, here's Dr Yin [well-intentioned, not well-executed, but she's a vet, not a trainer... :p ].
    She understands the concept, but she's weak on the practical.




    Here in contrast, is a terrific trainer, a Japanese housewife who just took this up to help her dogs understand what's wanted. Her timing is great, & her dog is so accustomed to the association of claw-trim = beef hunks, he's oblivious when she quicks him :eek: , & ignores it completely, waiting eagerly for his tidbit. :rolleyes: .



    Noch being quicked painfully, & rebounding instantly, is a perfect example of "drawing on the balance of yer goodwill-account", when U have a dog who was trained via rewards: U pile up the happy experiences, & a BAD experience is "outweighed" by all those past happy ones. :thumbs-up:

    - terry

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  7. Lisa dunne

    Lisa dunne Member Registered

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    Wow....I am overwhelmed with responses. Thank you ALL so much, so much info to work on. I have done a little bit of desensitisation with the grooming but nowhere near enough. I def need to put the time in. Will have a good look at the clips leashedforlife thank you. Hope the pee leaks are sorted soon I am going to seek out another groomer as this did seem very harsh and she was clearly distressed as didn't leave my side for a couple of days. I'll keg you know how I get on. Joannef no she is a Yorky shitsu cross. Aw Zoomies at 8....so cute
     
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  8. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    both those breeds have baby-fine hair that tangles if U look at it, & knots overnite. :rolleyes: . Nope, not joking, for real.
    Also, they are both tender-skinned & very "soft" breeds, they are NOT stoic & long-suffering - think Princess & the Pea, with a single pea causing her agony beneath 3 mattresses & 4 feather-beds, & U get the idea. :p

    She'll need loads of pre-conditioning [multiple brief, happy experiences of combs, scissors, claw-trims, clippers, & blow-dryer on LOW], plus if i were U, i'd use this -

    https://www.amazon.com/Smooth-Detangling-conditioner-lavender-chamomile/dp/B00428O3FE

    It's a no-rinse formula, spritz it INTo the coat [part the hair] & gently detangle FROM THE TIPS toward the skin, holding the hair below the comb so her skin isn't pulled. :) Works a charm!
    I'd also apply it & comb her out B4 i took her to the groomer, & tell the groomer she's detangled & pre-combed, with a coat conditioner already on her.

    - terry

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  9. Sezzy

    Sezzy Well-Known Member Registered

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    Misty only ever went to the groomers once, she’d been there about half hour when I got a phone call to pick her up as the couldn’t cope with her! She was just over six months old and they said she was too much of a puppy and wouldn’t keep still! I afterwards heard quite a few bad reviews of this particular place, I don’t know what they expected a puppy to do on it’s first experience :eek: I couldn’t get her booked in anywhere that had been recommended, so I bought some clippers and a table and cut her hair myself, and I’ve been doing it ever since without any problem.....much cheaper too! ;)
     
  10. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    I don't "hate" groomers, but I do find that many are chronically overbooked & thus rush thru every dog - inevitably, that causes upset for the dogs, they sit & wait for hours, bored out of their skulls, or are suddenly hauled out & being hustled -- poked, rapidly brushed, hauled around, & harassed, in an effort to get thru all the appts for the day. :(

    I always encourage my clients to do as much grooming as possible, themselves - either learn to do it all, as @Sezzy has, or at the very least, pre-comb the entire dog to the skin over about 2 or 3 days B4 their salon-appt, so that Ur dog is tangle-free, & there's no reason to yank & pull painfully on their tender skin.
    Remember that dog's skin is protected by their haircoat, it never callouses or even tans, it remains as soft as a baby's bum all their lives, & is sensitive. // Hairless breeds need special care; with no hair to distribute hair-oils, they need frequent baths to remove the oily accumulation, or they get acne & other skin-problems. They also need sun protection.

    For coated breeds, if the hair is curly like a Poodle, or fine like a Maltese, or grows in ringlets or waves, such as Irish Water-Spaniel or similar, I ALWAYS use a detangling no-rinse conditioner, to reduce pulling. My go-to brand is Happy Tails, in the link above - the lavender pump-spray doubles as a calmative, it's especially effective for dogs who get anxious in the car. ;)
    Even coarse straight haircoats such as Briards have, can use a detangler B4 combing; it will just wash out with the shampoo, later. ;) . Saves a lot of yanking!

    Also, combing down the hair in small locks I hold captive in my fingers, & detangling the tips 1st, then combing down the hair of that lock in sections toward the skin, prevents pulling. If i start my comb at the skin to comb outward, i just shove any tangles ahead of my comb, to make horrible knots that must either be cut-out or ripped off. :eek:

    I try not to groom for more than 10 to 15-mins without a break. :) Short n' sweet, lots of praise, small steps.
    - terry

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  11. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    re claw trims:
    Dogs hate to have their paws held, as they cannot flee if things go pear-shaped or get scary. It takes a lot of desensitization to get a dog to trust U with their paws - this process really should start in puphood, but can be done at any age, if it hasn't been, or can be re-trained after a dog has a traumatic experience with scissors, a quicked claw, or if s/he had a paw-injury that needed stitches / a boot / bandaging, & lots of messing with. :(

    I also encourage my clients to learn to tip & grind their own dog's claws - I do not agree with the current practice among some owners & groomers, who advocate quicking a dog to rapidly shorten claws! Not only is this horribly painful & makes the dog hate claw-trims, but infections can move into the nail & thence into the toe, bloodstream, or bone, & losing a digit or being hospitalized for septicemia is possible.
    The vertical tip on the claw is the only cut I do - I nip it off, then to reduce length, i use a grinder [& I wear a mask, too - inhaling the ground-up nail as dust means being exposed to everything the dog has walked on or thru since they were last ground; feces, soil bacteria, exhaust particulates, pollen, all kinds of microdebris U don't want in yer lungs].

    The quick is the blood vessel in the claw, & once cut, it bleeds for a long, long time - BP behind it & the tiny vessel's size make it difficult to get a clot to stick, as any clot washes out & the claw keeps bleeding. Keep styptic powder or styptic pencil handy, & have it to hand BEFORE U CUT so U don't leave a bleeding dog to go fetch it.

    here is a dog who had a horrible puphood; his well-intentioned, novice owners were counseled by a VET & several "trainers" to use more & more forceful handling. Their puppy grew into a suspicious, dangerously defensive dog.



    DS / CC is a lifesaver - desensitize before the dog experiences the total event, breaking it into small pieces;
    Classically-Condition a novice dog or pup, or Counter-Condition any dog after a bad experience.

    happy training, :)
    - terry

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  12. Lisa dunne

    Lisa dunne Member Registered

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    Well for the last 3 days I have managed to comb Bonnie, use my husbands clippers (ssssh don't tell him ) to trim a bit off her feet and sat with hair dryer next to her to desensitise her usin the above technique. She has done so well and allowed me to do these things without too much stress. Haven't managed to get hold of the pre conditioner yet as sold out but have booked her into a privately run groomer who sounds perfect in her approach so fingers crossed.
     
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  13. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    YAY! - well done, Lisa. :)

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