At What Age Do You Make Your First Assessment?

[Sarsanet]

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I've just been reading Karen's thread about her latest puppies in which she says she likes to stack up & make her first assessments at 9 weeks of age.

I always do this at 8 weeks of age plus/minus a day if I absolutely have to. A friend of mine says no it must be at 6 weeks of age & someone else says they always wait until 12 weeks. Others tell me they make their choices while the pups are new born & still wet.

Time, space & finances mean most of us don't have the luxury of being able to run on the entire litter until it's 9 months old or whatever so at what age do you first stand your puppies up & decide which might make the show ring & which go to pet homes? I know it's an on going thing but how long can you, & your puppy buyers, wait before the inevitable decision has to be made?

Gail.

 

[seaspot_run]

I do my first cut at 8 weeks--that's where I designate my "true pets". Prior to that, my temperament testing at 7 weeks tells me which ones have the drive and working aptitude to make animated show dogs and that's factored in to the initial grading. I grade my show prospects yet again at 9 weeks if they are still with me, and decide which are slightly more promising than others.

I don't find that I change my opinion very much between 9 weeks and 5 months. At 5 months, it's possible to start making good evaluations of gait, and also see things that are seldom completely apparent at 8-9 weeks like tail carriage and ear carriage faults that will endure into adulthood.

There was a very wise breeder over here--Doris Wear of Stoney Meadows--who made a profound statement. When asked when she was able to be assured that a Whippet puppy was show quality, she replied "at whatever age it has received 15 points, including 3 majors, under three different judges"! :lol: :lol:

I'm sure you will have no difficulty adapting this wisdom to your particular country and show scheme.

Karen Lee

 

[Avalonia]

For the seasoned eye, and this is an eye I think comes after several decades of breeding, there is a moment while the newborn whelps are born, when you can if you have the right eye, see the pup as it will be as an adult. My son Mick who is the breeder of Avalonia whippets, is dyslexic and has always seen things interestingly. This has, oddly, stood him well through normal school and university where his perceptions (he studied art history) were identified by his professors as unique, perhaps because of the dyslexia. Whatever the case, amongst the things he can 'see' is the body structure and full form of a new born whelp and how it will look as an adult.

Mick ALWAYS picks the dog he is going to keep first as a newborn whelp and I cannot tellyou how few times his assessment has been wrong. He reconfirms at 5 weeks -- a time when I too can see what he sees in a wet whelp -- and at that point a person with a very good eye can see the shoulder layback, the balance between upper arm and elbow, the topline, and the rear angulation -- and at that point you can visualize what you see is what you get at 8/9 weeks, and then at a year.

If we do not like a pup first as a wet whelp and again as a 5 week old pup we cross it off our list of puppies we will recommend for breeders/exhibitors. We always reconfirm what we see when the pup is between 8 and 9 weeks, and the image seen by Mick as a wet whelp and again by both of us at 5 weeks, has never failed to confirm for us the wisdom of those early choices.

I think Mick has a positive gift with assessing newborn whelps... it is an artists eye able to see things as they are now, and as they can be. As he whelps a litter he races into my room (inthe middle of the night) and wakes me to tell me which pup is going to be a star and which puppy we can happily place in a good home as a housepet. It is no surprise to me that he makes his living out of things he has created -- his art (he is a skilled, in demand artist), and his hybrid daylilies and orchids. Sometimes I kid him that we should rent him out because he really is, that good.

Lanny

 

[seaspot_run]

I think you can tell a lot about proportion and head type at birth, but there are things which just don't show up then, such as ear set, ear carriage, a ring tail, cow hocks, in the USA eye size and color and pigment, some differences in bone/substance/size in a big litter, etc.

None of that is apparent at birth. Sometimes the smaller puppies turn out very substantial and the bigger ones may grow up to be finer. A lesser attachment site within the uterus can result in a smaller, runtier looking pup which catches up and even surpasses its bigger littermates when it gets a few weeks of solid food in its system.

I generally have some favorites at birth, but if that puppy gets up on its feet and the tail goes up and it toes in, then that's not a pup that is going to go to a show home, even though it may still have a beautiful body, proportion, and head and neck.

So, I think 8 weeks is really a good age to see overall proportion and balance and type, and also if there are egregious faults they should be apparent. Nine weeks, the shoulders tend to lay back and smooth out a little more and you can see a bit more gait then, and after that, not much changes for a couple of months, IME.

But everyone has their own way of doing things.

If I'm looking for a versatility prospect, I look for decent conformation, a good head and attitude, and hipbones about the height of the top of the shoulder blades, combined with a moderate topline and the beginnings of a good muscle mass in the rear.

 

[Seraphina]

I do not think there is a magic moment when it suddenly becomes obvious what a puppy will or will not be. I look at my puppies from the time they are born, but do not really start evaluating them until they stand on their wobbly little legs. Then I do not look for the best, i just look at what I like and what i do not like about each of them and by the time they are 8-9weeks of age I start sorting them out, first those I am sure I would not want to see in the ring. They can go to their new homes at about the 9 weeks and after that I can start seriously judging the rest. Usually, I can predict what puppy will look like later on, but occasionally there is surprise; the weedy little puppy ends up nice and strong while the one I thought is going to be too coarse and huge fined up and is a very nice size :unsure:

I always look for balance, angles and in Whippet nice flowing shape.

Gail, does this question mean that pitter-patter of little paws is imminent up in Emerald?

 

[Sarsanet]

I do not think there is a magic moment when it suddenly becomes obvious what a puppy will or will not be.  I look at my puppies from the time they are born, but do not really start evaluating them until they stand on their wobbly little legs.  Then I do not look for the best, i just look at what I like and what i do not like about each of them and by the time they are 8-9weeks of age I start sorting them out, first those I am sure I would not want to see in the ring.  They can go to their new homes at about the 9 weeks and after that  I can start seriously judging the rest.  Usually, I can predict what puppy will look like later on, but occasionally there is surprise; the weedy little puppy ends up nice and strong while the one I thought is going to be too coarse and huge fined up and is a very nice size  :unsure:  
I always look for balance, angles and in Whippet nice flowing shape.

Gail, does this question mean that pitter-patter of little paws is imminent up in Emerald?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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Lida, initially, these thoughts just crossed my mind when I was reading Karen's thread then I started thinking about it some more which is why I asked the question & I must thank you, Karen & Lanny for such fantastic responses. Until now my situation has always precluded me from breeding a litter of my own but I have selected bitches for dogs I have owned, persuaded their owners to have a litter from my dog & am proud to say have produced at least one champion from every litter.

The patter of tiny paws should have been heard around here within the next 2-3 months but when I took Pagan to the vet for a general check up prior to mating it was discovered she had an irregular heart beat. An ECG was done & sent to the chief canine cariologist at Melbourne Uni. who diagnosed a terminal heart defect. Something to do with electric impulses. He said not to breed with her under any circumstances, she would not survive the whelping process. To make matters worse, she is so bad she cannot even go under anaesthetic to be spayed so, of course, cannot be relocated to a pet home either. He said she can, & will, drop dead at any time between right this minute (20 months) & approx 6 years. A half brother just dropped in his tracks at 2 years of age. If she was human she'd have to have a pacemaker fitted.

You may remember I was asking questions here about heart problems a couple of months ago. I'm devastated, of course, I've waited 20 years for this girl but she doesn't know she's sick & I'm determined she shall live a full, normal life to the end whenever that might be. I shall still show her because she loves it & she will run in the park & on the beach with her friends. I tell myself I'm mentally strong enough to cope with this, that I'm a fatalistic person & will be ready for it whenever it comes. I often wonder how far away from all that the realitiy will be !

But all is not lost, tiny paws will patter in Majestic Drive hopefully next year. I send sincere thanks & gratitude to Kim Box of Cheshunt Whippets in Mildura who has made a gift to me of Ch. Rushdale Blue Belle, the daughter of my Sarsanet Summertime so I can, at last, have a litter of my own & continue the bloodline I've developed by using other people's bitches with my dogs. She's been here a month now, had her heart checked & so far, so good. Hopefully we'll all be out in the rings again by August.

Gail.

 

[seaspot_run]

Best wishes for a healthy litter. I am sorry to hear that your beloved Pagan wasn't able to be bred.

It is heartbreaking, I know. It sounds like you have some wonderful friends who came through for you when you needed a helping hand. What goes around, comes around, and this is a fact!

I hope you have a marvelous litter and enjoy your puppies very much! :huggles:

 

[Sarsanet]

Best wishes for a healthy litter. I am sorry to hear that  your beloved Pagan wasn't able to be bred.
It is heartbreaking, I know.  It sounds like you have some wonderful friends who came through for you when you needed a helping hand.  What goes around, comes around, and this is a fact!

I hope you have a marvelous litter and enjoy your puppies very much!  :huggles:

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Thanks, Karen - it's been a torrid few months, that's a fact. When the litter finally comes, it will be announced here first! People have been so kind &, in Kim's case, extraordinarily generous as well, I am so grateful to everyone concerned.

Gail.

 

[Tesa]

I am so sorry to read about Pagan Gail . I am sure you will treasure every moment you have with her, and hopefully that will still be for many years :luck:

Best of luck with Blue Belle :cheers:

Karen

 

[Seraphina]

So sorry to hear that Gail. Hope she will surprise all and will live till old age. Friend of mine had a puppy in her Dane litter with heart problem like that, the vet said she will not reach 6 months and so my friend decided to keep her and give her lovely time for her short life. She lived for 9 years ! That is not a bad for Great Dane.

Who was the Pagan's half brother that died of the same condition? It does run in families, so anybody having related dogs should have them tested.

 

[Sarsanet]

So sorry to hear that Gail.  Hope she will surprise all and will live till old age.  Friend of mine had a puppy in her Dane litter with heart problem like that, the vet said she will not reach 6 months and so my friend decided to keep her and give her lovely time for her short life.  She lived for 9 years !  That is not a bad  for Great Dane.
Who was the Pagan's half brother that died of the same condition?  It does run in families, so anybody having related dogs should have them tested.

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Thank you so much to all the people who have commented here & sent me personal messages of sympathy & support.

The terrible thing is that her half brother who died at 2 & his litter brother who has cardiomyopathy weren't diagnosed before Pagan's litter was born. Due to that Pagan's litter was checked & double checked with no problems found. Pagan, herself, was given the all clear by 5 different vets up to the age of 14 months then suddenly, at 18 months, it was there. She shows absolutley no clinical symptoms whatsoever & because the bloodlines she descends from are now prominent all around the world I wonder how many other ticking time bombs there are out there with owners & breeders totally unaware of the situation. I would never have known myself if her booster jabs hadn't been due & I decided to have a thorough check up done prior to mating. To look at her & live with her you'd never guess in a million years she could drop dead at any moment. Even then I wouldn't have believed it except the head canine cardiologist at Australia's biggest vet. teaching University has told me so not once but twice along with 2 other independant specialists. I didn't take just one opinion, I didn't want to believe it & I went everywhere to have it disproved but I have ended up with no more options left & I have to accept it's true.

So I say to you - all of you - get your dogs checked out before you breed with them & just because all was well at 2 years of age, don't presume that will also be the case at 3 years of age. Not just the bitches, the stud dogs too.

To my knowledge, whippets haven't had an overall heart problem: that might change in the not too distant future.

Take care, people. Take care.

Gail.

 

[dragonfly]

Gail

I am so very sorry. What a difficult time you must be going through, she is such a beautiful girl. It is heartbreaking to discover something like this, especially in such a special one.

My thoughts are with you.

Cathie

 

[seaspot_run]

So I say to you - all of you - get your dogs checked out before you breed with them & just because all was well at 2 years of age, don't presume that will also be the case at 3 years of age. Not just the bitches, the stud dogs too.
To my knowledge, whippets haven't had an overall heart problem: that might change in the not too distant future.

Take care, people. Take care.

Gail.

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Gail, I am really sorry this happened to you. You did NOTHING wrong; this type of thing can just jump up and bite any one of us in the butt, no matter how careful we are trying to invest in the best bloodlines out there.

Here in the USA, I would say that awareness of heart problems in the breed is now universally-acknowledged, to the point that our parent club has been extremely aggressive in trying to get researchers involved and in doing echo and ultrasound clearances which are offered for reduced prices at our Nationals so that breeders can afford to have more full workups done on their key stud dogs and brood bitches. It's not really economically feasible to do that on everything you produce, but at least a yearly aescult by a cardiologist is now the gold standard, and if not, if your vet is pretty good at it, they're going to be able to detect anything obvious. Your experience mirrors that of many examples I can think of over here...dogs who were clear at 3, sired litters or produced, and then developed a problem immediately afterwards, and dogs who were clear at 2 and had significant cardiac disease by four. These types of problems are extremely frustrating, because you can never consider the dog to be clear until it is quite old, so you have to really communicate amongst yourselves and try to make sense of pedigrees and predispositions.

We are hoping that the research which is now ongoing here will hold some answers in a few years for not just US breeders, but breeders in any country who are experiencing this problem. It may be that many of the murmurs picked up at ages of 6-8+ aren't really significant and are part of the normal variation of the breed and not really likely in most instances to progress rapidly to cardiac insufficiency, but the ones which are noted at younger ages seem to be the most likely to progress....an echo can often show more in terms of what the actual cardiac function is. Some rather loud murmurs are minimal in their effect on cardiac health, and some are associated with an athletic heart and it requires a skilled cardiologist to tell you that, as most general practitioners may not be able to make that determination just be listening to the heart.

The fact that it is still a relatively low percentage who have been diagnosed at under the age of 8 with cardiac disease is no reason not to take it seriously. I applaud your honesty and I hope your litter plans work out really well.

That Whippets of various bloodlines including some of the most successful have some incidence of cardiac problems in the USA is not a matter of opinion anymore. It is a matter of settled fact. While breeders may dispute (in some cases, bitterly and vociferously) among themselves which bloodlines are the most risky for it, and which bloodlines seem to be primarily clear of it, there is no dispute that there are cardiac problems in the breed which appear to be highly heritable. I don't think you'd find one breeder over here of any experience who wouldn't say that it's a concern for the breed. The first step is to screen your young stock and and not breed forward with anything that doesn't have a clear aescult in their prime breeding years.

It is great that your friends were so supportive and helpful. That has to have made this difficult situation much easier to endure. I know it is a very sad thing to have to put away your dreams for a dog who was one you had such high hopes for.

 

[~JO~]

Goodness how sad and how worrying

Knowing now how these cardiac problems are emerging at 3 or 4 years it is quite a dilemma about breeding from a bitch or dog under this age. But I guess there is no guarantee that a cardiac problem (or other) may or may not appear.

I am going to ensure all mine have a cardio check-up the next time they are at the vets

I am so sorry to hear about Pagan and wish you and her all the very best

 

[irenegoodnight]

Having just read this post may I say how sorry I am that you have had such a terrible time, and this must remain a constant worry for you.

That you are determined to let her lead a normal life is the best future for both of you, and I can only applaud your resilience to make this happen.

With my very best wishes,

Irene

 

[lurkylurchers]

Hi, first time on this forum for me. I have searched for info on heart problems as my whippet is only 3 yrs old and has been diagnosed with a heart murmer. The vet is now concerned it may be something worse as the dog seems short of breath. Tests are of course being done, but having seen this topic while searching I am now really worried. Can anyone please tell me how to find the breeding of this dog? Any help would be much appreciated. Thank you

 

[~JO~]

Hi, first time on this forum for me. I have searched for info on heart problems as my whippet is only 3 yrs old and has been diagnosed with a heart murmer. The vet is now concerned it may be something worse as the dog seems short of breath. Tests are of course being done, but having seen this topic while searching I am now really worried. Can anyone please tell me how to find the breeding of this dog? Any help would be much appreciated. Thank you

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Is your dog KC reg? do you have a pedigree?

 

[Seraphina]

Many Whippets were diagnosed with heart murmur when actually there is nothing wrong with them. Their heart beat is different and many vets do not know that. The best thing is to find a vet specializing in sighthounds. That is very important to have a vet who does know lots about sighthounds, especially if your dog would ever need to have anesthetic, as they need different one. Many sighthounds have died during operation because the vet overdose them with anesthetic.

When you say your dog is bit short of breath, do you mean after he has run for while. or when he is walking on the leash? Maybe if he put bit of weight on and it is hot weather? When did you notice he is short of breath, was it only recently?

Whatever the vets you see tell you, always get a second opinion.

 

[JAX]

I dont know why , but Ive only just read this thread . so sorry to hear about you Pagan. lets hope you have many more years together

Jackie

 

[Ms Molly]

Gail, I am so sorry to hear the sad news about Pagen and her brother. You were so looking forward to breeding her to. May your days with her be full and enjoyable. Love her while you can.

I hope that you will finally get your well planned litter from Kim's bitch. And yes, we all should be breeding with our bitches later rather than sooner from proven healthy stock. We should also test regularaly for these hidden time bombs.

Good luck for the future.

Molly