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[mdkel]

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Hello once again everyone,

Zappa's doing much better from his poop issues

I have another question regarding behaviour, I'll give a bit of a background first:

- Zappa is 8 month old, he's been with me since 3 month old. He has been always super clean ( not peing or poop inside, unless in is specific place).
- A few weeksago I heard him growl at another puppy that he already knew (has not done that since).
- Now he has begun to be more and more reactive to dogs, and specially to children. Today a little girl I know wanted to pet him, I told how to do it, but zappa started barking at her, he did not seemed to be aggressive, or in fear, but excited. Tail waggling, ears up but relaxed, body not very stiff, but barking (a mix of high pitch barking with normal barking haha ), no growling.
- He also as been grumpy due to using a cone collar (he has a little wound in his belly, and can not lick it).
- He also has been jumping a lot on us, no personal space definition
- He was on ahumping spree, but that semeed to go away.
- He was a "everything is food" type of dog, but now is more "controlled"
- He stil talks back at as a lot, but no growling or showing a serious face (always with his tail waggling an relaxed ears and body, almost like he's playing)
- In this few weeks (2 or 3), he seems to be less and less under control.
- As for walks, he almost never approachs people, only if they are still and he can smel them first, but sometimes (I can never tell when), he jumps up at a random person he had never seen before, while walking. and sometimes, while we are walking (walking slowly), he has this sudden bursts of energy, and trys to run like hell (like the zoomies), this happens more often as we are heading home, or walking on grass or mud.

Can I consider this normal teenager behaviour? or is it getting more and more serious? I'm going to have him trained (as well as me ) , but for now I can't really pa for a behaviourist/trainer. What is your advice? What do you think of this behaviours? normal? becoming aggressive? fearful? As for children, I think he does not see them as people, if a child runs in front of him, he tends to chase them and barking (he was in a park, a child entered alone and started running, zappa forgot about me, started to bark to the child and cornering/chasing the kid, although it did not seem to be in an aggressive way (once again, tail waggling, butt in the air with head down, always loking at the kid).

Oh, and his bite innibition is also getting worse, until this week he never even touched our hands, now he touches them, and is also biting a lot more (especially clothes, but also hands when he's playing).


What do you think about this?

Thanks in advance

 

[Violet Turner]

Can i message you tomorrow, with some advice? it may help...
I can't message now due to Olive being under the weather.

 

[JudyN]

I'm going to have him trained (as well as me )

What sort of training is this? You really want a trainer to train YOU to train HIM, as it's you he needs to listen to.

It sounds to me like normal adolescence, and maybe going through a fear period. The important thing is to avoid anything he isn't keen on. So I wouldn't encourage interaction with children, unless he's completely calm. A good idea would be to let him watch children and treat him while he's watching, so they have good associations for him, but he won't be inclined to run up to them.

Recall, recall, recall... good recall will save you in so many situations, such as when he approaches a stranger and you think he might be about to jump up. Go OTT with high-value treats and praise. Introduce a whistle and train carefully (this involves, paradoxically, never using the whistle if you think he might not come back when you blow it, hence the need for careful training) if his recall to your voice is a little iffy.

Zoomies are good and fun. Lurchers often get the zoomies when they have sand under their feet for some reason!

Some dogs you can do pretty much anything to and they will never growl or react. Some dogs naturally are going to be grumpier and will need more careful handling and training. It's not the end of the world, it doesn't mean they are going to turn into monsters (unless you ignore the signs), and it's not anything you've got wrong. It can be really useful to do things like 'cone training', 'eye drop training' and so on because even the sort of dog who will respond really badly if you try to force these things on them can accept them if you use reward-based training and desensitisation.

For jumping up, what worked for me in the end was turning my back, facing a tree or fence so J couldn't get round to my front, and ignoring him. Then when he stopped I'd turn round and praise him, then we'd walk on. At times he'd start jumping up again straight away, but it worked in the end.

 

[JoanneF]

Everything Judyn says is good. I would add specifically -

As for children, I think he does not see them as people,

This is common. Small children don't move or sound like miniature adults. They are jerky, loud, shrill, exciting. It doesn't mean you are less careful; rather very much the opposite, but it is great that you recognise he sees them as different. But regarding the chasing, for their safety and his, you have to control this. If that means keeping him on a long line then you have to do that. You don't want this to become an embedded habit.



And

Oh, and his bite innibition is also getting worse,

Believe it or not, this is a sign that whatever you are doing to stop this, it is working. It's called extinction burst, where a behaviour that used to get your attention no longer 'works' for the dog, so he tries it even more to get the response he used to get. Light at the end of the tunnel! He is totally being a stroppy teenager so hang in there, the result is in sight.

 

[mdkel]

Can i message you tomorrow, with some advice? it may help...
I can't message now due to Olive being under the weather.

As always, off course Violet thank you very much

 

[mdkel]

Everything Judyn says is good. I would add specifically -

This is common. Small children don't move or sound like miniature adults. They are jerky, loud, shrill, exciting. It doesn't mean you are less careful; rather very much the opposite, but it is great that you recognise he sees them as different. But regarding the chasing, for their safety and his, you have to control this. If that means keeping him on a long line then you have to do that. You don't want this to become an embedded habit.



And


Believe it or not, this is a sign that whatever you are doing to stop this, it is working. It's called extinction burst, where a behaviour that used to get your attention no longer 'works' for the dog, so he tries it even more to get the response he used to get. Light at the end of the tunnel! He is totally being a stroppy teenager so hang in there, the result is in sight.

Really?? great I do the same I did when his was younger, henow only bites when excited and its only one or two tiny bites , and then stops, if i put my hand near his mouth he avoids it .

As for children, I never never never never let zappa alone or without a leash near them, I had 3 dogs before and never had a bad experience around children, but I guess that is because I am very careful, this time was my fault to not look at the children, but his mom should have been watching him as the dog was loose, nothing happenned though ....

 

[mdkel]

What sort of training is this? You really want a trainer to train YOU to train HIM, as it's you he needs to listen to.

It sounds to me like normal adolescence, and maybe going through a fear period. The important thing is to avoid anything he isn't keen on. So I wouldn't encourage interaction with children, unless he's completely calm. A good idea would be to let him watch children and treat him while he's watching, so they have good associations for him, but he won't be inclined to run up to them.

Recall, recall, recall... good recall will save you in so many situations, such as when he approaches a stranger and you think he might be about to jump up. Go OTT with high-value treats and praise. Introduce a whistle and train carefully (this involves, paradoxically, never using the whistle if you think he might not come back when you blow it, hence the need for careful training) if his recall to your voice is a little iffy.

Zoomies are good and fun. Lurchers often get the zoomies when they have sand under their feet for some reason!

Some dogs you can do pretty much anything to and they will never growl or react. Some dogs naturally are going to be grumpier and will need more careful handling and training. It's not the end of the world, it doesn't mean they are going to turn into monsters (unless you ignore the signs), and it's not anything you've got wrong. It can be really useful to do things like 'cone training', 'eye drop training' and so on because even the sort of dog who will respond really badly if you try to force these things on them can accept them if you use reward-based training and desensitisation.
For jumping up, what worked for me in the end was turning my back, facing a tree or fence so J couldn't get round to my front, and ignoring him. Then when he stopped I'd turn round and praise him, then we'd walk on. At times he'd start jumping up again straight away, but it worked in the end.

trainning as in trainning me to train him, it's a positive reinforcment only trainning, based on the do no harm filosofy. It's called All about dogs (you can check it on facebook if you like).

Normally he is calm around people and/or children, but today he wasn't , hence my doubt. I'll try to let him just watch while I give him treats

As for the zoomies, he get's then at home, and that's cool, we all love them but sometimes, while we are walking (zappa on leash), he trys to just run like hell, as if he was starting the zoomies, but he is on leash :O

"Some dogs you can do pretty much anything to and they will never growl or react. Some dogs naturally are going to be grumpier and will need more careful handling and training. It's not the end of the world, it doesn't mean they are going to turn into monsters (unless you ignore the signs), and it's not anything you've got wrong. It can be really useful to do things like 'cone training', 'eye drop training' and so on because even the sort of dog who will respond really badly if you try to force these things on them can accept them if you use reward-based training and desensitisation." ------- see, here is the foundation of all of my doubts, am I missing the signs or not? I can't seem to inderstand if zappa is beong fearful or aggressive or just playful. He has zero resource guarding, but if he wants to lick his paw, and I try to keep him off, he eventually will try to nip my hand while doing this werd talking, but wont bite or show his teeth in a threatning way ... I have to say that my last dog was a basset hound, that had a bit of resource guarding, and if you approach him while he was on his favourite place (the sofa offcourse) he would show you his teeth (since he was about 2 month old till the day he died), and basset hounds are very well nown for not having an expressive face (you never now if they are happy, grumpy, sad, etc etc). Zappa just seems to be happy and excited all the time (except while sleeping )

WHat is cone training and eye drop training?? sorry but I never heard it before I still dont know how to do desensitisation either

The jumping up at me is only at home (when I get home, or my girlfriend). When we are walking, he never approachs strangers, but sometimes, like 1 or 2 ttimes per week, when he is walking on leash, he jumps up to a total stranger , that confuses me hahaha but you think that reward train will work too? i.e. a person is gong to cross us, I tell him to sit and give him treats while the other person passes by? like this?

do my questions make sense? or am I just making a mess? the small barrier that comes from the language difference can, at times, confuse what I am trying to say...

do you have anymore advices?? I love them all

PS: as for the recall, well, it's not perfect, at home works very well, at a friends house works well too, when we are walking I try to call him name a few times or use a different word to do a recall and sometimes works, sometimes it doesnt, but is like fetch or any command I ask him (except sit), if I have treats they work, if I dont have treats it works 1 time, maybe (like fetch, he will play fetch for an hour if I have treats, if I dont, he gets the ball and goes his own way )

 

[leashedForLife]

... I still don't know how to do desensitization, either
...

.

DS / CC, or DeSensitization & Counter-Conditioning, is actually pretty simple.

Desensitize means to expose the dog to various things - sounds, sights, places, certain sorts of people, sensations... - under controlled circumstances, & also, to make sure that each of these experiences is a happy one, for the dog.
Counter-conditioning means that the things we are exposing the dog to, carefully & mindfully, are those things that s/he currently reacts to, in ways that we don't want - it might be fear, aggression, intense excitement, wild barking, the dog might freeze & shut-down -- doesn't matter what the reaction is; what matters is, we want a different reaction.
The thing they react to is called the dog's trigger - it could be the vet's shiny slippery S/S exam-table, the sound of the weekly garbage-truck, the sight & sound of a bird taking flight, the sensation of water on the dog's belly & the slippery enamel floor of the tub; a trigger can be anything, a specific place, a certain setting [any large noisy public place, such as a subway-platform, an outdoor concert, the local 4th of July parade...], a sight, sound, smell, anything.

The process is called "counter" because we move against the dog's current feelings & past experiences of that event, place, sight, sound, or feeling; say as a puppy, this particular dog had a painful & scary experience at the vet's. Now, she's an adult, but here she is, years later, reacting like that frightened pup in pain - she's hypervigilant, snaps at the techs & the vet, her whole body is tense, she can't be ausculted b/c she growls so loudly, she deafens the vet using the stethoscope.
So we will make repeated, brief visits to the vet, which are as low-stress, happy, & enjoyable as possible, doing this WHILE SHE'S HEALTHY, so no bad things happen: no thermometer up her bum, no painful handling of an injured limb, she's not nauseous & weak & feeling awful; she's healthy & pain-free, & we're just building a scrapbook of happy memories of times she went to the vet & only good things happened.

We might have any imaginable goal behavior in mind.
Maybe we just want the crazed BC, waiting in their crate for their turn at agility practice, to SHUT UP... or we'd like the dog who folds to the floor in the apt-elevator, who must be carried out bodily, to get used to the funny feeling of their stomach going up or down, relax, & enjoy the ride.
Whatever the objectionable behavior, we intend to change it to a different, preferred behavior, & we are going to do this by changing the dog's feelings about that person, place, sound, event, or sensation. // So DS / CC is behavior modification: B-Mod changes the dog's behavior [modifies it] by altering their emotional response to something.


I would suggest U get a copy of 'Click to Calm' - used copies are often available on-line, at Amazon, Libris, BookSmith, & other used- & new-book websites, but even new, it's not expensive. Click to Calm was written to DS/CC aggro, but it works for any & all reactive issues. Fear, over-arousal, strange superstitions, just substitute Ur own dog's feeling wherever U see "aggression" in the text.
U can read the entire book, then begin to use it, or go directly to the page that describes Ur dog's "symptoms" & begin B-Mod immediately - it's written in recipe format, & anyone who can read at a middle-school level can use this book effectively.
used copies -
Amazon.com: Buying Choices: Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog (Karen Pryor Clicker Book)

U can also download it in an e-book format, & carry it with U on yer phone or pad.


this is the author's website -
http://emmaparsons.com/

"Click to Calm" & several other DS/CC methods are also on UTube - "Look at that!" [LAT] & "Control Unleashed" [CU] are also safe, simple, & humane. No aversive tools are used, no confrontation, & no flooding the dog! - flooding refers to overwhelming the dog in the presence of their trigger, so that s/he can't learn anything; the dog is flooded by EMOTION & cannot handle it, thus is swept away by their own emotional reaction.
Flooding is a bad thing to do - the dog should be carefully kept under threshold, that is, aware of their trigger but calm & not reactive, so that they're able to learn a new way to feel about this thing.

let us know how it goes, or if anything confusing comes up? - I've had many clients who used 'Click to Calm' very successfully, & can heartily recommend it.

- terry

.

 

[JoanneF]

a person is gong to cross us, I tell him to sit and give him treats while the other person passes by? like this?

Exactly!

 

[JudyN]

person is gong to cross us, I tell him to sit and give him treats while the other person passes by?

I have to post and run & will come back to this this evening, but just in case I forget - this is correct UNLESS your dog isn't a natural 'sitter'. Sighthounds in particular often can't sit comfortably so asking for a sit as a default behaviour can add to their general stress/arousal levels. For some dogs, it's best to ask for something else - mine responds well to 'wait' and a raised finger which indicates 'stop doing whatever you are doing/thinking of doing'. 'Watch' (i.e. look at me) is another alternative.

 

[JudyN]

WHat is cone training and eye drop training?? sorry but I never heard it before I still dont know how to do desensitisation either

As an example, a year or so ago Jasper needed ear drops. It was a nightmare getting them in, he was seriously aggressive. It's fear aggression, he's convinced it's neat sulphuric acid... So a couple of weeks after we'd finished the course, I would hold the empty bottle in front of him and give him a treat. Then I would hold it somewhere near his ear, and give him a treat. Then I'd lift his ear flap while holding the bottle, and give him a treat. Then I'd point the bottle into his ear and give him a treat. Finally, I filled the bottle with olive oil, put a couple of drops in his ear and give him a treat. I did each step a few times each day until I was 100% sure he was happy and wasn't going to react before moving on to the next stage - it only took a few days before I could put drops in his ear.

I've done similar things with eye drops and really, given how sensitive he is, should do it with things like cones and bandages. He gets nervous if I just lay a bit of Vetwrap across his leg.

do my questions make sense? or am I just making a mess? the small barrier that comes from the language difference can, at times, confuse what I am trying to say...

Nope, you're doing just fine!

PS: as for the recall, well, it's not perfect, at home works very well, at a friends house works well too, when we are walking I try to call him name a few times or use a different word to do a recall and sometimes works, sometimes it doesnt, but is like fetch or any command I ask him (except sit), if I have treats they work, if I dont have treats it works 1 time, maybe (like fetch, he will play fetch for an hour if I have treats, if I dont, he gets the ball and goes his own way )

If you're using his name or another word and it only works sometimes, you're basically teaching him that he can choose whether to come back or not - the word will just become background noise. You want his recall to become an automatic, instinctive reflex - like a war veteran diving under the table at a party when a balloon pops, but a HAPPY reaction rather than a scared one!

In my opinion you should ALWAYS have treats on you. You need to make recall worthwhile for him, most dogs don't think 'OK then, if I must, but I was having so much fun.' And treats for recall should be really high value, as it's such an important skill. And it's very important to reward your dog whenever he does something good, even if it's just 'not being naughty'. (For some dogs, a game or a ball can work better than food - though this might be because the food isn't high value enough.)

I started whistle training at point-blank range in the house - whistle, treat, whistle, treat - so there was no chance that he wouldn't come as he was already there! Then I did it from a couple of feet, so of course he'd come for the treat. Once it's nailed in the house, you can do it outside when there's no distractions (possibly on a long line), and then gradually build up the distractions. If he's doing something absolutely wonderful (to his mind) then unless you're desperate, don't recall (or if you do, don't use whatever sound you're using as your 'proper' recall cue).

 

[leashedForLife]

.

Until his recall hits at least 4 times success out of 5 ONE-cue recalls, i'd use a long-line, attached to any sturdy Y-harness that fits him well.
A used harness can be found in consignment shops, or on-line via "classified ads" - CraigsList, e-Bay, PreLoved, GumTree, etc, or even given away on FreeCycle.

The hardware [buckles & slide adjustments, or strap connections] should NOT go into his 'armpit', that thin-skinned area around his elbow, where there's thin hair & a lot of movement. // It should fit flat, smooth, & snug all over - on smooth-coated dogs, the hair should bristle slightly around the straps, & the straps should compress the skin & muscle under them a bit. When U take it off, the lines were the straps ran should be briefly visible as flattened areas of hair.
On double-coated dogs, the straps should be "under" the guard hair, again compressing the coat & the skin / muscle - & harness-tracks should be seen when U take it off, until the dog shakes to settle their coat, when they vanish.

A well-fitting harness will only shift a little bit, when U tug firmly with both hands pulling it toward the same side - one hand on the neck strap, & one on the girth, both pulling down & toward U. // Harnesses that slide forward & back, or roll side to side easily, are either too big, not fitted properly, or they're the wrong shape for that dog's body.

The more adjusters on any harness, the better - there should be at least 3 [buckles & slides, total], but preferably 5 buckles & slides, all together. That allows U to make the harness fit almost any dog's shape.

Clip the long-line to the dog's CHEST - if there's a metal ring where all 3 straps meet [2 coming from the shoulders, 1 coming up from the girth between the forelegs], that's perfect! - clip to the ring, & go.
If there's no metal ring, don't worry - buy a locking carabiner at any outdoors supply, climbing-gear or camping supply; be sure it's rated for at least 100# burst strength, if Ur dog is 40# or less, or 200# burst-strength for dogs of 50 to 90#. They come in many colors, & can be S/S, powdercoated with color, solid black, anything - contrast or compliment the harness.
Slide the open carabiner under the junction of all 3 straps on the chest, diagonally; LOCK it. Clip the leash to the locked carabiner, & U're ready to go.

When U want to give the dog a run off-leash inside a fence [remember, he's not recall-trained; take no chances on having him run off, & be lost], take the leash off the locked carabiner, & leave the carabiner in place. That way, no one can forget to lock the carabiner, or lose it & then it must be replaced - they don't cost the moon, but they're not dirt-cheap, either.

When U call him, be sure he's not deeply involved in a dog-activity - stack the odds in yer favor, he can't be playing with another dog, meeting a new friend, sniffing something fascinating.
Call him ONCE - using yer recall cue - & give him a few seconds. If he doesn't turn his head Ur way, start bringing hi in using the long-line, hand over hand; if he fights it like a hooked fish, keep on bringing him in! And when he gets to U, REWARD HIM with warm sincere praise, & a very high-value small tidbit, or even a jackpot. HOW he got there does not matter; he's with U now, & that must be the most-rewarding, safe, happy place on Earth for Ur dog.
Pour on warm calm low-pitched praise, & reward handsomely - with high-protein, low-carb tidbits.

A jackpot is a series of pea-sized or even half-pea sized tidbits, given as a series - as quickly as the dog swallows one, the next is in front of their nose, so they are swallowing almost non-stop. 6 to even 12 tidbits are given in a row; like a dozen small candies given to a child, it makes more of an impression than 1 large candy.
Don't forget that praise accompanies all the pieces in a jackpot - tell him he's "...brilliant, SUCH a good dog, so smart, a wonderful boy...", & mean it. Make Ur voice warm, low-pitched, & happily soothing; U don't want to sound manic, squeaky, or loud, as U are right near his sensitive ears.
Small cubes of lean beef, chkn or turkey breast, low-fat cheese [Mozz, Provolone], pouch or canned fish bits, etc, make wonderful high-value treats.

Lickable homemade treats are also good - low-fat cream cheese with canned fish added is popular, 3 parts cheese to one part fish is a good ratio. Mash it together with a fork, cover it, & put it in the refrigerator overnite to marry the flavors.
Pack a small amount in a silicone refillable tube, & U can freeze or refrigerate the "mother lode" for use later. // DATE IT - the day U made it goes on the mother-lode, the day U pack it goes on the tube. Don't keep the tube out of the 'frig for more than 2-hours at a stretch, then put it back to chill after squeezing out a small 'clean' amount, then wiping the cap & neck to clean off saliva. This minimizes bacteria, so they don't grow to large numbers & make the dog ill.

BPA-free, food-grade silicone tubes are sold in many drugstores in their travel section for airplane trips - they're not expensive, & last a long time with good care. They're hand-washable, or can be washed / sanitized in the top rack of a dishwasher. Soak them to help remove as much food as possible B4 putting them into the dishwasher.

Recall takes a lot of training, but it takes even more proofing - practice around different distractions, at closer & closer distances [other dogs, friendly strangers, a ball or fetch toy being thrown to another dog, etc].
LEVELS Training is a wonderful written program for DIY - the proofing is built into the training process, so U cannot forget a step or miss a distraction. It's here -
Training Levels (originals) | Mind to Mind

Levels Training is free, effective, fun, & safe - U cannot mess it up, if U just follow the directions.
- terry

.

 

[Violet Turner]

When he was in the shelter what was his background? I messaged you... but this is 3 hours later and you already replied to it