Champion Title

[Rob Rixon]

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I’ve just read Liz Third’s letter in the Dec 07 issue of The Whippet. I agree with her. She suggests a Show Champion should “prove that is can run a qualifying time (time to be decided by the WCRA) in a race, thereby showing that it can run a clear race in a decent time. Racing Champions should have to prove that they are typical specimens of the breed by a championship show win”. This would be very interesting as ‘they’ have 36 championship shows in a year while we only have four championship race meetings.

What do you think?

 

[Strike Whippets]

I'm all for duel purpose Whippets ....but lets go the whole hog, if our Ch racers were to be shown at champ shows, lets make sure the judge has his/her measuring stick with them :- " and sticks correctly to the breed standard height ......Then really a show dog as we are always told is what the correct Whippet should look like, and they are always properly constructed (w00t) , so really that means they ought to be able to contend at champ race level with out having to .....

“prove that is can run a qualifying time (time to be decided by the WCRA) in a race, thereby showing that it can run a clear race in a decent time.

......
They should have to WIN !!! at champ/open race levels if this was to be fair ......then to put the icing on the cake lets throw in some lure coursing .....

 

[beaker]

breeding/owning a DUAL champion would be my ultimate dream but it is unlikely to happen, sure it would be great to have a dog top of their game in all fields but it aint likely to ever happen (won't stop me trying and dreaming though)

i like the suggestion that like gundogs and their FT/ShCh's a dog after gaining 3 CC's is only specfied as ShCh and does not have full title until it's proven aptitude after a lure. it might even help lessen the devide.

it's unlikely to be accepted by the Kennel club though, as as far as i'm aware Racing Champs aren't recognised formally in the same way Feild Trial champs are.

until that happens i can't see how it could be done

 

[Darcia]

Cant say Im overly interested in the whole title business as I have no interest in showing atall but the article on missing testicles was very interesting and informative. Some thoughtful comments on the subject from a few people too, the only thing I would disagree with would be the bit about dogs not being able to race atall, that would be very harsh on owners of such dogs.

 

[Judy]

I’ve just read Liz Third’s letter in the Dec 07 issue of The Whippet.  I agree with her.  She suggests a Show Champion should “prove that is can run a qualifying time (time to be decided by the WCRA) in a race, thereby showing that it can run a clear race in a decent time.  Racing Champions should have to prove that they are typical specimens of the breed by a championship show win”.  This would be very interesting as ‘they’ have 36 championship shows in a year while we only have four championship race meetings.
What do you think?

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We haven't had our copy yet so I might be misunderstanding exactly what the proposal is. Assuming the proposal is that show champions have to make a certain time to get a full title and racing champions have to win at a show to get their full title them it sounds very biased towards the show dog to me as it only has to prove it can run a "decent time" but a racing dog has to win at a championship show! Why not just look like a whippet or be a fairly decent example ?... (in some ones opinion).

As its highly unlikely that any of our Racing Champions are going to win at a championship show, there would be no Racing Champions. But, if the time was made slow enough then a show Champion could make it and there would be Show Champions.

On the other hand, if it was made a time that a racing bred dog gets when it wins at the Champs ( in which case why not just make them run and win at a Championship meeting?) ......not many show champions, if any, would get to close to that so there would be no Show Champions.

Both things are highly unlikely. No doubt that's why there has never been a dual champion. I do agree with the sentiment though. But its another good reason why we shouldn't get the Kennel Club involved in Whippet Racing. After all why should we really care if our racing titles are recognised by people outside of racing or not?

 

[Joanna]

I’ve just read Liz Third’s letter in the Dec 07 issue of The Whippet.  I agree with her.  She suggests a Show Champion should “prove that is can run a qualifying time (time to be decided by the WCRA) in a race, thereby showing that it can run a clear race in a decent time.  Racing Champions should have to prove that they are typical specimens of the breed by a championship show win”.  This would be very interesting as ‘they’ have 36 championship shows in a year while we only have four championship race meetings.
What do you think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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We haven't had our copy yet so I might be misunderstanding exactly what the proposal is. Assuming the proposal is that show champions have to make a certain time to get a full title and racing champions have to win at a show to get their full title them it sounds very biased towards the show dog to me as it only has to prove it can run a "decent time" but a racing dog has to win at a championship show! Why not just look like a whippet or be a fairly decent example ?... (in some ones opinion).

As its highly unlikely that any of our Racing Champions are going to win at a championship show, there would be no Racing Champions. But, if the time was made slow enough then a show Champion could make it and there would be Show Champions.

On the other hand, if it was made a time that a racing bred dog gets when it wins at the Champs ( in which case why not just make them run and win at a Championship meeting?) ......not many show champions, if any, would get to close to that so there would be no Show Champions.

Both things are highly unlikely. No doubt that's why there has never been a dual champion. I do agree with the sentiment though. But its another good reason why we shouldn't get the Kennel Club involved in Whippet Racing. After all why should we really care if our racing titles are recognised by people outside of racing or not?

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I've got two copies Judy! If it doesn't arrive, I'll post you the Spare one I have :thumbsup:

I admire the sentiment of striving to obtain the great all-rounder, but I personally don't think it can ever be achieved. With the diversity of types within the whippet population, it would be impossible to obtain this mythical creature. Also, as owners, we have chosen what we want to do with our dogs. I am sure many showers really don't want to get up early on a Sunday and stand in a wet and windy field to prove a point. Like-wise, most racers probably don't fancy parading around a ring with their hounds as it isn't their thing.

Let's accept that the breed is diverse, strive for good health and conformation, but not start laying down the law about what owners have to do!

Edit to say, what do showers think about this, I think that this should be linked to the showing forum for their views on the subject.

 

[posh totty]

I’ve just read Liz Third’s letter in the Dec 07 issue of The Whippet.  I agree with her.  She suggests a Show Champion should “prove that is can run a qualifying time (time to be decided by the WCRA) in a race, thereby showing that it can run a clear race in a decent time.  Racing Champions should have to prove that they are typical specimens of the breed by a championship show win”.  This would be very interesting as ‘they’ have 36 championship shows in a year while we only have four championship race meetings.
What do you think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

We haven't had our copy yet so I might be misunderstanding exactly what the proposal is. Assuming the proposal is that show champions have to make a certain time to get a full title and racing champions have to win at a show to get their full title them it sounds very biased towards the show dog to me as it only has to prove it can run a "decent time" but a racing dog has to win at a championship show! Why not just look like a whippet or be a fairly decent example ?... (in some ones opinion).

As its highly unlikely that any of our Racing Champions are going to win at a championship show, there would be no Racing Champions. But, if the time was made slow enough then a show Champion could make it and there would be Show Champions.

On the other hand, if it was made a time that a racing bred dog gets when it wins at the Champs ( in which case why not just make them run and win at a Championship meeting?) ......not many show champions, if any, would get to close to that so there would be no Show Champions.

Both things are highly unlikely. No doubt that's why there has never been a dual champion. I do agree with the sentiment though. But its another good reason why we shouldn't get the Kennel Club involved in Whippet Racing. After all why should we really care if our racing titles are recognised by people outside of racing or not?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I've got two copies Judy! If it doesn't arrive, I'll post you the Spare one I have :thumbsup:

I admire the sentiment of striving to obtain the great all-rounder, but I personally don't think it can ever be achieved. With the diversity of types within the whippet population, it would be impossible to obtain this mythical creature. Also, as owners, we have chosen what we want to do with our dogs. I am sure many showers really don't want to get up early on a Sunday and stand in a wet and windy field to prove a point. Like-wise, most racers probably don't fancy parading around a ring with their hounds as it isn't their thing.

Let's accept that the breed is diverse, strive for good health and conformation, but not start laying down the law about what owners have to do!

Edit to say, what do showers think about this, I think that this should be linked to the showing forum for their views on the subject.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

i have asked a similar question and had little response, but will give my opinion for what it is worth, i think to be a true champion , some mixture of either racing or lure coursing should be acheived before the title of champion goes ahead? or an extra type of champion status could be given showing this is a true example both of what the breed should look like and also be capable of? the breed was a racing pot filler before it entered the ring so why not show we have continued to breed dogs able to do such and be beautiful and true to type? jmo :thumbsup:

 

[IanGerman]

I'm pretty sure that a few years ago the Whippet Club in their wisdom ( :- " ) announced some kind of incentive for the first "Triple Champion"

It met with derision from the racing world, although I believe some of the coursing people thought they may be in with a shout (they weren't)

That's not to say that it isn't a worthy quest - but for real, it will just never happen, and probably a "dual" is about the best that can happen assuming show and course. (Although whether this is still valid now that coursing is lure coursing I really don't know)

 

[Rob Rixon]

breeding/owning a DUAL champion would be my ultimate dream but it is unlikely to happen, sure it would be great to have a dog top of their game in all fields but it aint likely to ever happen (won't stop me trying and dreaming though)
i like the suggestion that like gundogs and their FT/ShCh's  a dog after gaining 3 CC's is only specfied as ShCh and does not have full title until it's proven aptitude after a lure. it might even help lessen the devide.

it's unlikely to be accepted by the Kennel club though, as as far as i'm aware Racing Champs aren't recognised formally in the same way Feild Trial champs are.

until that happens i can't see how it could be done

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This is a good point about FTChs. I spoke to my friendly FT panel Judge and he said "you would need to get the KC involved, then they take control - and therefore you loose control, and before you know it all sorts of "whippets" will be taking part. Your rule 5 gen ped acceptable to WCRA will go straight out".

Which I think is an interesting point!

 

[Judy]

This is a good point about FTChs.  I spoke to my friendly FT panel Judge and he said "you would need to get the KC involved, then they take control - and therefore you loose control, and before you know it all sorts of "whippets" will be taking part.  Your rule 5 gen ped acceptable to WCRA will go straight out".Which I think is an interesting point!

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I understand that the possibility of having our Racing Champions title being recognised by the KC has been looked into before but they wanted so many regulations to be put in place that it would have meant a lot more administration and a lot more expense for all of us. Personally I can't see the benefit of having it officially recognised. It would mean that if you got a pedigree from the KC the titles would appear on it but we can write out our own anyway. The only people that it would really mean anything to are the people who are racing and they know anyway.

 

[Rob Rixon]

I think to be a true champion , some mixture of either racing or lure coursing should be acheived before the title of champion goes ahead? or an extra type of champion status could be given showing this is a true example both of what the breed should look like and also be capable of? the breed was a racing pot filler before it entered the ring so why not show we have continued to breed dogs able to do such and be beautiful and true to type? jmo :thumbsup:

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Problem with lure coursing there are no stanard rules - the clubs do not agree. In europe your dogs has to jump an obsticle while lure coursing, if it runs around, its out!

Double Champions - nearest thing was Ch Sound Barrier - CC winner and multi coursing stake winner (see Hall of fame - Tony Loch) Owned by Susan Baird

or Gay Robertson's WCRCh Luke also multi stake winner (see Shirley Rawlings - Whippets) or the Whittingham's WCRCh Candytuft.

But these are a long time ago! :lol:

 

[quintessence]

I would love to do so much more with my dogs than I do but am limited by time. Showing is my first love and that is the path I have always taken. I have to work in order to fund my hobby, and there are many shows I would like to go to but am unable to. I do not have the time to consider doing anything else, even though I would love to try both lure coursing and racing. I wish I was able to do more but it's not to be, however, I know Dylan is so much faster than Sparky, who himself is no slouch, and I would so love to see him have a go at lure coursing, but there are only so many hours in a day and all that I have are filled :thumbsup:

I thought the article thought provoking, but coming as I do originally from a gundog kennel I know how hard it is to have a gundog become a dual champion.

Jenny

 

[telstar]

:wub: Delter lady was my first whippet she started off with the showing getting placed 1st puppy bitch at bath champs we showed for about 2 years then we done some obedience work which we enyoyed very much. A friend said to me could i go with her and give her a hand with the whippets at the lure course meet i said could i bring my whippet along she whatched with great joy so we gave her a trial she loved it.she was a bit fat so she was a bit slow at first we got the weight off and she wone a couple of times. A friend said have i tried racing her i said no never so we went to andover wrc club and she took to that as well and so did we she did not win a big title but she went on to win her maiden and then the supremes She was not super fast she was bred to show but her pedigree had good blood lines such as laurelcote shes now 14 years old and still going strong :huggles: i have not 1 whippet but 10 now :- " Shes the blue :wub:

 

[Seraphina]

In some European countries (France for instance) there is a similar system. Dog does not get his championship title ratified until he passes a speed test. While the racing dogs have to be entered at show and considered "true whippet" by 3 different judges. While that complicates things bit for both show and racing owners, it helps to keep the breed somewhat suitable to its original purpose. Friend of mine breeds both top winning racing line as well as show Whippets, occasionally crosses the 2 lines and has had show champion also winning races. But basically, the top winning show dogs are too differently built from the really fast ones. And also what is accepted as correct show condition is a lot different from top racing condition. You cannot take a dog one day to a race and win, then the next day to a large champ show and have a chance of winning there as well. My friend told me it takes her about 6 months to change her dogs from well covered (fat) show condition to lean (fit) race condition and vice versa.

 

[Rob Rixon]

Friend of mine breeds both top winning racing line as well as show Whippets, occasionally crosses the 2 lines and has had show champion also winning races.  But basically, the top winning show dogs are too differently built from the really fast ones.  And also what is accepted as correct show condition is a lot different from top racing condition.  You cannot take a dog one day to a race and win, then the next day to a large champ show and have a chance of winning there as well.  My friend told me it takes her about 6 months to change her dogs from well covered (fat) show condition to lean (fit) race condition and vice versa.

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Interesting use of words crosses the 2 lines !!

You cannot take a dog one day to a race and win, then the next day to a large champ show and have a chance of winning there as well. Why. If the Judge is worth his/her salt then he/she should take into account racing condition! :wacko:

 

[Joanna]

Friend of mine breeds both top winning racing line as well as show Whippets, occasionally crosses the 2 lines and has had show champion also winning races.  But basically, the top winning show dogs are too differently built from the really fast ones.  And also what is accepted as correct show condition is a lot different from top racing condition.  You cannot take a dog one day to a race and win, then the next day to a large champ show and have a chance of winning there as well.  My friend told me it takes her about 6 months to change her dogs from well covered (fat) show condition to lean (fit) race condition and vice versa.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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Interesting use of words crosses the 2 lines !!

You cannot take a dog one day to a race and win, then the next day to a large champ show and have a chance of winning there as well. Why. If the Judge is worth his/her salt then he/she should take into account racing condition! :wacko:

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Why can't we just accept the diversity of the breed and embrace the discipline we want to participate in with our pets? I know you love a good discussion and debate Rob, but I just think it is a bit of a farce to try and mend some-thing which ain't broke :wacko: In the days when the likes of Gay Robertson used to race successfully, the racing dogs didn't really resemble the ones on the track today, likewise the showers were not so tall and large and thus the breed could be said to be more multi-faceted. I really can't see it reverting back, doesn't every-thing in life change and move on? You only have to look at tennis players or athletes from 30, 40, 50 years ago to see how much more extreme the human sports person is today in physique. This will all be down to selecting potential, training and diet to name just a few.

Great debate btw :thumbsup:

 

[Rob Rixon]

Why can't we just accept the diversity of the breed and embrace the discipline we want to participate in with our pets? I know you love a good discussion and debate Rob, but I just think it is a bit of a farce to try and mend some-thing which ain't broke :wacko: In the days when the likes of Gay Robertson used to race successfully, the racing dogs didn't really resemble the ones on the track today, likewise the showers were not so tall and large and thus the breed could be said to be more multi-faceted. I really can't see it reverting back, doesn't every-thing in life change and move on? Great debate btw :thumbsup:

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Hi Joanna

The basic Problem is IT IS the AIM of THE WC to make sure the breed DOES NOT DIVERSE!! Second point - in the Days of GAY Robertson - I think the Whippet has not moved on that far in the time. (Times over 150 yds and size of the racing dogs)

When the WCRA was formed (just after the BWRA) there was a lot of owners worried about loosing control of the breed - and they hoped that the Whippet would not go the way of the Greyhound. I remember going to a Fenland Kennel where they kept Whippets and Greyhounds. There was a Show Greyhound 'Stud dog' that weighed over 100lbs!! - you would never get a dog this big on the track.

I think the 'golden rule' is to make sure we do not end up with a them and us situation. There are a few people out there who are trying to keep the 'two types' together. Believe me I have always had Whippets that race - but some parts of my family did show and breed with 'show stud dogs'. If we end up with two different breeds we will all end up the poorer.

We should not allow the situation to be a 'fait accompli'. :teehee:

 

[SUNDANCE]

I think the show and racing whippets have already become very different in shape. We occasionally get newcomers turn up at Andover with show bred whippets. They almost look like a different breed. Everyone tells them that they need to get three or four pound off the dog. Some of them persevere and get the dog cleared for racing but, then get disillusioned and give up because they can't compete with race bred dogs. Even if they can get the dog fit and shed some weight, they still can't compete. I would be amazed if a successful show dog could ever compete with race bred dogs of a decent standard now.

 

[telstar]

:wub: Delter lady was my first whippet she started off with the showing getting placed 1st puppy bitch at bath champs we showed for about  2 years then we done some obedience work which we enyoyed very much. A friend said to me  could i go with her  and give her a hand with the whippets at the lure course meet i said could i bring my whippet along she whatched with great joy so we gave her a trial she loved it.she was a bit fat so she was a bit slow at first we got the weight off and she wone a couple of times. A friend said have i tried racing her i said no never so we went to andover wrc club and she took to that as well and so did we she did not win a big title but she went on to win her maiden and then the supremes She was not super fast she was bred to show but her pedigree had good blood lines such as laurelcote shes now 14 years old and still going strong  :huggles: i have not 1 whippet but 10 now  :- " Shes the blue :wub:

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I was told Delter lady was bred to show not to race by a lady who bred racing whippets she said she would be to slow i was not put off by this and we kept up with our trainig she did do ok she was very quick out of the traps and beat some very well bred racing whippets. :wub:

 

[SUNDANCE]

My idea of a competitive racing whippet is a open class dog. By that I mean a dog that can regularly make open finals. How many show bred dogs have made the top ten in the last ten years? Who thinks a show bred dog will ever make the top ten again?