The Most Dog Friendly Community Online
Join and Discover the Best Things to do with your Dog

Welcome to Our Community
Wanting to join the rest of our members? Feel free to sign up today.

Chloe and Becky.

Discussion in 'Dog Behaviour and Training' started by Jeffrey Raines, May 30, 2018.

  1. Jeffrey Raines

    Jeffrey Raines New Member Registered

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Hi All! We have 2 adoptee Maltese females aged 7 who both suffer from severe anxiety problems. After a year and a half with us, they haven't improved very much and our vet has recommended Clomipramine. Has anyone got experience of using this anti-anxiety medication or any similar medication on their dog?
     

    Attached Files:

    Violet Turner likes this.
  2. JoanneF

    JoanneF Well-Known Member Registered

    Messages:
    2,336
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, although I am aware of people who successfully use similar calmatives. Have you tried behavioural work? Is it anything in particular they are anxious about?

    And, do you know if they are littermates and what the rest of the litter is like?
     
    Jeffrey Raines likes this.
  3. Jeffrey Raines

    Jeffrey Raines New Member Registered

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    3
    They were both used as breeders in a puppy mill. After 6 years of producing puppies, they were offered to us. Basically, apart from producing puppies, they have not been socialised, do not know how to play and are afraid of everything. I am a bit dubious of behavioural work as they are both 7 years old now and although they have improved after 18 months with us, the chances of training them fully are not good according to our vet. Although the thought of giving them this type of medication is a bit daunting, our vet recommends this method as the best for them.
     
    Violet Turner likes this.
  4. Violet Turner

    Violet Turner Well-Known Member Registered

    Messages:
    2,730
    Likes Received:
    1,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The medication does work but takes a long time. Have you done any behavioural work with trainers? Did you get them from a rescue? If so can they not help with their behavioural problems? If you would like speak to The Dogs Trust I'm sure they would be more than happy to help with your dogs behaviour/anxiety issues.
     
    Jeffrey Raines likes this.
  5. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

    Messages:
    1,823
    Likes Received:
    2,703
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I suspect that the core of 'behavioural work' would be about doing less, not more. This might involve not walking them, not trying to get them to play, not even making eye contact... I'm not a behaviourist and don't know the situations in which they are anxious so this isn't suggesting you should take this as advice, just that it's what a behaviourist might suggest after a full assessment.

    I have a friend with a severely traumatised rescue dog. After having him about 1.5 years she still has not been able to take him for a walk and I think has only once managed to get him to a vet (by getting him in his crate and then carrying it). He's on some medication which she described as 'doggy Prozac' which she said has helped - I could ask her for more details if you like? Though of course different dogs will respond differently so that will just be one person's experience.
     
    Jeffrey Raines likes this.
  6. JoanneF

    JoanneF Well-Known Member Registered

    Messages:
    2,336
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It sounds like it is a bit beyond something like the Dogs Trust as Violet suggested - a dog in a high state of anxiety cannot learn anyway. But what you might find is that medication takes enough of an edge off to let you start doing a little work with them. I would be guided by your vet and at least give it a shot.
     
    Jeffrey Raines likes this.
  7. Mad Murphy

    Mad Murphy Well-Known Member Registered

    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    1,131
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Im not sure if this helps but when I found my little Remy in a field it was clear he wasnt 100%. (turned out to be trauma and brain damage) I asked the vet about his chances and the vet said it was better to ask myself; what did I expect of him?. If it was to be housetrained , to walk, to be tolerant of me then there was nothing wrong with Remy as he was. If I expected him to win awards there was no chance.

    So maybe think about what it is you want from your dogs and then see what it is you need to do. Maybe a whole training programme isnt the right thing. Remy was only 1 when we found him your dogs are a lot older but trauma isnt something you can cure in a year and if like Remy the damage is too deep you never heal it you just learn to adapt and they learn to trust.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  8. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

    Messages:
    1,512
    Likes Received:
    665
    Trophy Points:
    113
    .

    U've had them for 18-mos; I would have sought help from an experienced trainer, at the very least, long ago. If their issues were severe - & it sounds like they are - i'd skip trainers, & seek out a CAAB, a vet-behaviorist, or a certified k9-consultant from IAABC.

    Vets who are not Board-certified in behavior as a specialty are not qualified to help with behavior issues; disease, congenital & developmental abnormalities, surgery, medication, & other medical knowledge is their purview, plus they hold this mass of info on more than one species.
    It's unreasonable to expect them to "know" behavior, as well.

    I don't know what country is home for U, but the IAABC is worldwide -
    Find Dog, Cat, Parrot and Horse Behavior Consultants | IAABC

    Veterinary behaviorists are Board-certified specialists, just like k9 opthalmologists or k9 dermatologists; they can prescribe Rx-meds specific to behavior, such as SSRIs. // Most CAABs & k9-consultants partner with a local vet, or use the client's own vet, as their medical locum, who does any needed tests, Rx any meds, & oversees the pet's physical health during B-Mod.

    "Doing nothing" really isn't an option; they are distressed & unhappy. A knowledgeable intervention is needed - which bumps the GP-vet off the list, as s/he is not knowledgeable about behavior. :(
    Having both dogs in one household is also, IME as a trainer, prolonging their stagnant state - they take refuge in one another's company, they mimic one another's fears, each dog mirrors the other's fright at any event, & neither can learn new emotional responses to what are now, triggers for anxiety.

    Getting them individually into the company of a calm, sociable, but above all, bombproof dog would help to normalize some of their behavior - the new buddy would be a role-model, & their relaxation would be contagious to the timid dog. Obviously, U would set a low bar to begin, & not flood the poor creatures with overwhelming stimuli, but they could - again, IME - progress, each one solo, with another dog to show them "this is safe".

    assuming that U are in the UK, i'd search here -
    ABTC Register of Clinical Animal Behaviourists - The Animal Behaviour and Training Council

    Every one of those persons listed is a CAAB - highly knowledgeable, experienced, & ready to help. :)
    Please let us know how Ur dogs progress?

    I've worked with ex-puppy-mill adoptees, both sires & dams, & the damage to them can be extensive, including physical, mental, & emotional trauma, plus they're grotesquely warped by a lack of social contact & habituation to everyday events & stimuli. Essentially, they grew-up & lived in a box, & ppl who came to trouble them & opened the box were monsters, in the dogs' eyes. :(
    Many are only handled as needed, so injections, exits to be mated & plunked back in, brief absolutely-imperative clippings of mats, etc, were the only interactions with ppl. Very sad.

    - terry

    .
     
    Jeffrey Raines likes this.
  9. JoanneF

    JoanneF Well-Known Member Registered

    Messages:
    2,336
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Trophy Points:
    113
    merlina and Jeffrey Raines like this.
  10. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

    Messages:
    1,512
    Likes Received:
    665
    Trophy Points:
    113
    QUOTE, JoanneF:

    In the UK, many people consider COAPE & the APBC to be the gold standard in animal behaviourists.
    __________________________
    .

    Joanne, i wish U'd look at the info on the link, before U criticize it. :rolleyes:

    The APBC is a member-organization of ABTC - & APBC's accredited members are listed on ABTC's roster of clinical behaviorists.
    Individuals cannot "join" ABTC - the Council enrolls organizations, such as:
    • British Small Animal Veterinary Association (BSAVA)
    • European College of Veterinary Behaviour Medicine – Companion Animals (ECVBM-CA)
    • British Veterinary Behaviour Association (BVBA)
    • Police Dog Working Group (ACPO PDWG)
    • Royal Army Veterinary Corps
    • Guide Dogs
    • Assistance Dogs UK
    • UK Fire & Rescue International Search & Rescue Team
    • National Search and Rescue Dogs Association (NSARDA)
    • National Dog Wardens Association (NDWA)
    • Battersea Dogs & Cat Home
    • Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA)
    • Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SSPCA)
    • The Blue Cross
    • Dogs Trust
    • Cats Protection
    • Wood Green Animal Shelters
    • UKRCB (renamed The Canine Behaviour and Training Society)
    • Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour (ASAB) Accreditation Committee
    • Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC)
    • Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK (APDT UK)
    • International Sheepdog Society (ISDS)
    • World Society for the Protection of Animals (WSPA)
    • British & Irish Association of Zoos & Aquaria (BIAZA)
    • Performing Animals Welfare Standards International (PAWSI)
    • British & Irish Association of Zoos and Aquariums (BIAZA)

    Ergo, U will find every accredited APBC behaviorist is listed on ABTC's roster. // Yer welcome. :D

    - terry

    .
     
    Jeffrey Raines likes this.
  11. JoanneF

    JoanneF Well-Known Member Registered

    Messages:
    2,336
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Trophy Points:
    113
    First, I didn't criticise. Second, like I have said before, I'm afraid I don't read your posts fully - I appreciate you are really knowledgeable but I just find your writing style too time consuming to read.
     
    Mayblossom, Josie and Jeffrey Raines like this.
  12. Jeffrey Raines

    Jeffrey Raines New Member Registered

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Thank you all for your replies which I found extremely valuable. Our dogs behave like life term prisoners who have been released after many years and basically all we want of them is that they will start to appear to be content with their new lives. This will in return, make us much happier that we haven't failed them in some way. To those you that have asked, we are in Israel.
     
    leashedForLife and Mad Murphy like this.
  13. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

    Messages:
    1,512
    Likes Received:
    665
    Trophy Points:
    113
    QUOTE, Jeffrey Raines:

    ... To those who have asked, we are in Israel.
    ________________________________________
    .

    per this article, Aug-2015, there are just 3 vets who tackle behavior cases, in all of Israel -

    Barking up the right tree

    QUOTE,
    "Dr. Ofra Gallily of the capital’s Beit Hakerem neighborhood, [a teacher] at the veterinary school for 20 years, is one of only three Israeli veterinary behaviorists... (tel. 052-374-0957)...
    [Gallily said that] 'in Jerusalem, at least, pet owners like to get advice without paying a fee. Dr. Noa Harel, the animal behaviorist in Tel Aviv, tells me that in her area, pet owners are more used to paying for counseling. I give free advice only to people with emergencies & new pets...'
    Dr. Stephan Bauer, a recent immigrant from France who lives in the center of the country, is the third veterinary behaviorist."

    IMPORTANT NOTE:
    Per Dr Gallily, she is not Board-certified, nor is Dr Harel - both are DVMs, yes, but not vet-behaviorists. They merely offer pet-owners help with problem behavior; she doesn't say if the French ex-pat, Dr Bauer, is Board-certified or not.

    QUOTE,
    "There is no board certification in Israel, but the veterinary behavioralists are known to people in the veterinary school and among dog owners by word of mouth."


    IAABC has no members in Israel, either - i checked. :(
    I can, however, offer an extremely-detailed DIY manual from Karen Overall, DVM / ACVB: her behavior protocols.

    Belle Plaine Animal Hospital

    Start with b-1 & b-2 [deference & relaxation, respectively], & go on from there. :) . They are lengthy & detailed - don't panic, just follow the instructions step by step, & only as fast as the animal progresses.

    - terry

    .
     
  14. merlina

    merlina Well-Known Member Registered

    Messages:
    313
    Likes Received:
    441
    Trophy Points:
    63
    They are 'shut down', bless them. I think they can improve with help- though 'ignoring therapy' is often recommended, as someone has suggested. Let them come to you rather than push them. Do try to get advice from a reputable trainer/animal behaviourist. Remember vets are often excellent at the physical stuff but not always clued up about the mentality of the canine.
     
    JoanneF and leashedForLife like this.
  15. Violet Turner

    Violet Turner Well-Known Member Registered

    Messages:
    2,730
    Likes Received:
    1,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What I was supposted to say is TheDogsTrust because they will have worked with anxious dogs. I know that you need to try and associate the ´bad´ things they dont like into great things, this can be done by treats. I would reccomend speaking to a vet they will know some behaviourists. or you can speak to them regarding medications. Have you tried Adaptil Plug in/ Collars? They are supposed to be a great calm down for dogs and cats.
     
  16. merlina

    merlina Well-Known Member Registered

    Messages:
    313
    Likes Received:
    441
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Had another thought- do you have a friend with a really friendly laid-back dog? My abused rescue corgi x (I think we're his 5th home) started to improve as he made a relationship with our middle-aged, sweet-as-a-nut spaniel. He trusted him while we were still the enemy.
     
  17. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

    Messages:
    1,512
    Likes Received:
    665
    Trophy Points:
    113
    QUOTE, Violet Turner:

    ... Adaptil [is] supposed to be a great calmative for dogs and cats.

    __________________________________
    .

    Adaptil, AKA Dog-appeasing Pheromone or DAP, is species-specific to dogs. :oops: It might also relax other canids, i don't know that; but it's not a feline pheromone. It's a synthetic mimic of the pheromone produced by lactating bitches, & its purpose is to get fussing pups to calm, settle, & latch onto a teat quickly, when mom-dog returns to the nest - rather than waste time grizzling 'cuz she was gone, take immediate advantage of the fact that she's back, now, & nurse. :) It lowers BP, pulse, respiration, & cortisol secretion, all bodily measures that rise with stress.

    I would recommend DAP / Adaptil, yes, but i'd suggest the pump-spray, which can be put where U want it, & refreshed at any time; it doesn't go on the dog, but on items in the environment around on on the dog, such as collar, body-harness, the leash a hands-length from the clip so it wafts past their nose each time the leash passes, their bed or the open side of their shipping-crate & the doorsill, the sofa cushion where s/he likes to lie, the car-seat the dog sits on, a bandanna to put on their neck, etc.
    Anything washable is safe for DAP - if it's a "dry-clean only" garment, test it in a hidden spot & wait 24-hours to see how the fabric & color react. If it runs or fades, that's a no. ;) Don't put DAP on antique furniture, collectibles, that expensive silk Oriental carpet, or anything that can't handle ALCOHOL - it's 99.98% alcohol.

    The alcohol is also why U don't spray it TOWARD the dog - in their eyes, it will sting, or can injure them!, & the hissss... of the spray is startling at close quarters; cats, snakes, & other angry or hostile critters hiss, so take off the collar B4 U spray it, then put it back on, once it's sprayed.
    If U are out of the house & want to renew the DAP - it lasts about 90-minutes per application - feed the leash into the wrist-loop to create a running noose, & slip that over the dog's head as a martingale lead, BEFORE taking the collar off to spritz it, & putting it back on.
    Keep steady tension on the leash, so the dog can't slip out & do a runner! - losing a fearful dog at-large is an absolute nightmare. Get the collar back on immediately while holding the leash slightly taut, & be sure to fit it so that the collar is SMALLER than the dog's backskull - it should lie flat, smooth, & snug, high on the dog's neck; none of this fit-2-fingers-under 'slack' stuff. Everyone's fingers are different sizes, anyway - it's not as if we all have petite hands, with long tapered fingers, & wear size-6 gloves, is it? My one finger could easily be twice the size of yer own 2 - skip it. Snug, like a watch-band on yer wrist, is both safe & comfortable - the choker necklaces women wear are comfy, fit very closely, & inhibit neither breathing nor blood circulation. [I've worn many versions of them; velvet ribbons with a cameo pinned at the center are lovely.]
    If the collar's too loose, the dog can balk, drop her / his head, & be gone in an instant, leaving U with their collar lying on the ground, & their ID-tags on it.
    :eek: An excellent reason to microchip every dog - chips cannot be removed or lost. :)

    DAP is best applied before a stressful event - so 10 to 15-mins B4 going out for a walk, remove collar, spritz one side 1x, spritz opp side 1x, & put back on the dog. [Each spray is a measured dose, but collars turn while in use, so i spray 2 sides to make exposure more consistent.]
    Just B4 leaving, spray the leash a hand's length from the clip, & clip it to the dog's collar or harness; TIP, spray it & let them drag it about, when U're at home, to get them more-accustomed to the leash. Supervise the dog to ensure s/he isn't snagged by the wrist-loop, whilst dragging it in the house or garden.
    U can also spray:
    - pantlegs on both outside seams, at ankle & knee [that's 4 spritzes, total]
    - boot or shoe toes [NOT suede!]
    - shirt or coat cuff, if they're long sleeves
    - the dog's body-harness, on the chest strap
    - yer gloves: washable fabric or smooth leather, not suede

    In the car, U can spray the seat the dog lies or sits on at the front edge of the seat cushion, & on the back cushion, low down; the dog's seatbelt harness; the airline-approved shipping crate door at the open side, the doorsill of the crate... At home, the wall-to-wall under the coffee table where the dog likes to lie, the sofa spot they use often, their bed, a bath-mat as a portable "station" to lie on,... anything else that holds still! :D
    D.A.P. is extremely safe; dogs are hard-wired to respond to it, even bottle-reared pups still react to DAP, & they cannot overdose, nor does it interact with food, liquids, or medications of any kind.

    Feliway is a feline pheromone, used as a calmative for cats; it's a synthesized copy of the "cheek" pheromone that happy cats stroke onto the corner of the sofa, the post of their cat-tower, their owner's pantsleg, & other surfaces / objects, when they're being demonstrative or feeling content & secure.

    - terry

    .
     
    Violet Turner likes this.
  18. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

    Messages:
    1,512
    Likes Received:
    665
    Trophy Points:
    113
    .

    for everyone who has a fearful dog, whether it's learnt behavior as a result of traumatic experience, timidity b/c they were never properly socialized & / or habituated, or an inherited shyness, THIS is a terrific resource:

    Fearfuldogs' Blog

    Debby Jacobs, the author, is? / was a fellow USA-apdt trainer; she took in a BC described as 'shy' from the EDNAH bust by HSUS, where hundreds of dogs had been warehoused & neglected in terrible conditions, many in open pens with no shelter, poorly fed, with untreated injuries, whelping in the open, etc.
    She intended only to foster him until he could be placed with an adopter - but Sunny wasn't "shy" - he was TERRIFIED, stark staring panicked, by everyone & everything around him. He couldn't be placed; he needed major help, & he needed it for a very, very long time.
    Rebuilding Sunny into something resembling a normal dog took years of effort, & taught her a tremendous amount about the repair or construction of resilience in a dog who has none. :)

    - terry

    .
     
    Violet Turner and merlina like this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.