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Colour Preferences In Shows..

Discussion in 'Hound' started by Esty, Jan 21, 2009.

  1. Seraphina

    Seraphina Active Member Registered

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    If you breed within a small genetic pool you will run into trouble, regardless of colour. My Hephzibah is black and lack of bone is certainly NOT her problem, nor that of her sire who is from black to black mating.

    Of-course, i would never dream of putting together 2 dogs just because they were coloured. Actually, I do not plan to breed 2 coloureds together at all. I will only breed another 1 or maybe 2 litters; one definitely from Claudia to the best dog i can find (in this moment i am tossing between one that just happens to be fawn parti, and another one that is brindle with white trim). The colour of the sires is totally irrelevant to me, but I will be keeping the best coloured pup from that litter. :) Of-course if the only coloured pup in my litter has some bad fault i would not keep it just because it was coloured, that would be self defeating.

    I do not understand what you mean saying that you "did not breed for colour". When you mated your blue bitch you were most likely to get colour, if you mated her to fully pigmented fawn or brindle, you could have also got blacks. But if you decide to keep the fawn out of your litter, she will never give you coloured pup unless, of-course, you made her to a coloured dog. Therefore, if we want to improve the coloured dogs we need to keep the coloured pups to breed on with.

    The only way we improve the coloured dogs' quality and reputation is by breeding from them. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2009
  2. bertha

    bertha New Member Registered

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    You have completely misunderstood me. Pat Salter bred just for colour, ignored all the other thing one should take into consideration when breeding. I did not say any of yours were lacking bone either!

    I bred from my blue bitch and my black bitch because they were the only bitches I had!!!!!!!!! Obviously I expected blue etc in the litters, but I have never actually set out just to breed blues. I love the colour and have been lucky enough to breed or won some good ones. Two from my last litter, one blue and white and one white and fawn both have their stud book numbers. Note the colours!!!!!!

    I disagree on the point you made about blue mated to fully pigmented brindle or fawn producing black, I have never heard of that. One of my blues was mated to a black masked fawn with strong black lines behind her. There were no blacks, there were two dark brindles, a couple of fawns and one blue. I could be wrong, but in my experience I don't know of a blue to fawn producing a black!
     
  3. dragonfly

    dragonfly New Member Registered

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    So Sorry Anne you are wrong I am afraid. A blue mated to a black pigmented brindle or fox red will produce a black, as the brindle carries the non dilute gene which turns blue to black.

    Here is an example, Folly with her beautiful babies by Elaphine Alexander Blue

    Cathie

    [​IMG]
     
  4. bertha

    bertha New Member Registered

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    I did admit I could be wrong!!!!!!!!!!! It just seems to be so rare!. What is behind your brindle girl, any blacks?
     
  5. beaker

    beaker *blackaholic* with contagious whippetitus Registered

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    a stunning litter Cathie :wub: you just couldn't ask for a nicer mix of pupsters

    i think such litters are pretty rare,

    several years ago my black pigmented brindle girl had 3 blacks and 4 blues to my solid blue dog,

    it was a certainly a suprise to me but definately a pleasent one :thumbsup:

    a wee bit back i had a big row with an "experienced prolific working lurcher breeder" (not my exact words) who said i was a "flippin fibber" (not his exact words either, lol) :- as such a mating could not possibly produce blacks, so i had my crew DNA identified at the vets with them double checked against their microchips and ear tattoo's at the same time, all came back 100% of course and he's been pretty quiet ever since (w00t)

    BLACKS ... the marmite of the whippet kingdom :clown:
     
  6. dragonfly

    dragonfly New Member Registered

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    Actually even if she had blacks behind she would not be carrying the gene for them as black is dominant. In other words any dog carrying the black gene is Black in person (unless it is blue).

    A black is a NON DILUTE blue

    A Red is a NON DILUTE fawn.

    Her non dilute modifying allele has made some of the pups that would have been blue become black. She is out of a dilute brindle so carries both dilute and non dilute genes, plus fawn and brindle, her mate carries only fawn and blue and the dilute gene resulting in a rainbow litter

    The brindling gene is a separate one (like particolour) and is dominant to NON brindle, so if they carry the brindle gene then they are brindle.

    Is that as clear as mud!

    Cathie

    [​IMG]
     
  7. bertha

    bertha New Member Registered

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    YES!!!!!!!!!!!!! (w00t)

    Blue Magpie was mated to a pale fawn bitch with a black mask, the litter contained one solid blue, two really bright brindles and two fawns. In the litters he sired it was the only one with these bright brindles. I was amazed when we went to see them.

    Another odd thing, Merlin the blue dog in the Whippet magazine in the article written by Jason Knights, was the blue from that litter.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2009
  8. Seraphina

    Seraphina Active Member Registered

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    :) Sorry, but you mentioned Pat Salter as a response to my statement encouraging to keep the coloured pups to breed on. I took as meaning that if you do that or if you breed black to black, you will lose bone.

    The problem is that it would be very easy to lose the black/ blue totally, if we do not keep breeding them. Many people seem to still think that if you have black/blue in your dogs' pedigree it may "come up" somewhere in the future. THAT IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. The solid black gene (or its diluted form= blue) is dominant , if your dog has just one of these genes it will be black or blue. Brindle or fawn from coloured breeding DOES NOT carry the coloured genes.

    If it was the other way around, if most Whippets were black or blue and there was not so many fawns and brindles, there would be the possibility that the blacks carry these colours and therefore these colours may come up, if both parent of a litter carry them.

    Also you do not need the red fawn to mate to blue to produce black. Any shade of fawn even the palest cream, as long as it has one black hair on its body, has the potential to produce black pup IF the other parent is solid blue.

    The ratios are just total lottery, the millions of little sperms each carrying its little cargo of genes swim around looking for egg, which one manages to find one is just matter of chance. Just like with sex ratio, if you look the overall population you will find that it is roughly half boys half girls, but in some litters you get sometimes half and half but it is not unusual to have 6 of one sex and only 1 or 2 of the other.
     
  9. dragonfly

    dragonfly New Member Registered

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    You need a non dilute fawn to mate to the blue to get black. In the UK practically ALL of our fawns are dilute now, except the reds. We don't have those non dilutes that the American's have aplenty.

    Let's leave the masking cream gene for another day............LOL

    Cathie
     
  10. Seraphina

    Seraphina Active Member Registered

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    I did not realise that you do not have them, but some of the silvery brindles look to me as that their stripes are in fact full pigment - too hard to tell from photos.

    absolutely, and also those diluting reds, they are so rare and complicate the issue for people who are starting out and are only just getting to understand how it works :)

    Over the years I have tried to simplify the explanation of how colour inheritance works, i got it down to just few lines. I see if i can post it here, when i get home from a show. But now i better go or get there too late :)
     
  11. Seraphina

    Seraphina Active Member Registered

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    Inheritance of coat colour in dogs – 1

    Lida Simon

    Imagine that genes are like beads on double string

    Each gene is located in particular location or locus (plural loci), and cannot exist anywhere else. Some locations may have only one variety (allele), others may have multiple. But there is always only 1 pair of genes at each locus in each individual.

    As scientists located and identified individual genes, they gave each locus name or number. Most dog people use the system that Clarence C. Little used, as he was the person who, with his lifelong research, laid the foundations for our understanding of colour inheritance in dogs. He marked each locus by a letter, and each allele then by the locus letter with a subscript that is short for what the gene is. So for instance kbr means that the gene is on locus k and the k br = brindle. He used capital letters to indicate the dominant genes and small case the recessives.
     
  12. Seraphina

    Seraphina Active Member Registered

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    I find it easier to use the symbols for each gene because these tell us which locus the gene belongs to and if it is dominant or recessive.

    What genes of each locus do;

    A – has the most alleles and is responsible for several different colours: sable, agouti, black and tan, saddle pattern and possibly recessive black (GSD)

    B – has only 2 alleles – one B gives full pigment, b brown dilutions

    D – also has 2 alleles – D= full pigment, d = blue dilution

    E – controls the distribution of dark pigment , Em = creates mask, e = does not allow distribution of dark pigment, dogs that have a pair of e genes are red without one single dark hair. There is also E gene, which allows some dark hair

    K – has 3 alleles, K = solid black, kbr = concentrates dark pigment into stripes (brindle) and the recessive k = leaves the dog fawn, or what ever colour as indicated by the genes on A locus.

    S – controls the distribution of pigment over the dog’s body. Where the pigment does not reach, the area stays white. White is an absence of pigment. If you take a white hair and wet it, you can see it is totally translucent. It does not have any pigment.
     
  13. Seraphina

    Seraphina Active Member Registered

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    Genes most relevant to Whippets

    A – The only alleles of this locus known in Whippets is the dominant A, sometimes called Ay (yellow). However, the gene that makes dog black&tan saddle pattern is also located at this locus.

    D – both the D and d are present in Whippet. The d gene dilutes any black pigment on the dogs’ body into “blue”.

    E – allele Em gives the dog mask, E are fawn or brindle dogs without mask.

    The interesting, albeit rare, allele on this locus is the e gene, which blocks expression of any dark pigment anywhere on the dog. Dog with pair of these recessive genes will always be fawn/red, without any dark (black or blue) hair. In fact this dog may genetically be brindle, solid black, have a black mask (depending on what genes it inherited from his parents) but it will not have one single dark hair. When this dog is mated to a dog with E or Em the pups will inherit what ever genes were there and it is possible for the brindle or black to be expressed in the progeny.

    For instance dog that is AA DD ee Kkbr will be fawn/red but can pass on to his progeny either the K gene, which will make the pup black, or the brindle gene.

    K – at this locus are the genes that determine whether the dog is black = K, brindle kbr, or have no dark markings (with the exception of mask created by the Em gene) and are therefore fawn.

    S – the dominant S allows pigments to cover the whole body, si leaves tips of extremities including the nose with white marking, sp is particolour and finally sw.

    Another rare gene found in Whippets, but up till now not identified, is the recessive gene that dilutes all pigment and leaves the dog cream (almost white). Again, similarly as the ee dog, the cream can in fact be genetically any of the above colour, but its marking and colouring is totally diluted.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2009
  14. Seraphina

    Seraphina Active Member Registered

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    And for those who want to learn about this in more detail there is this excellent site

    Visit Website

    Understanding how colour is inherited makes also easier to understand how other traits are inherited.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2009
  15. beaker

    beaker *blackaholic* with contagious whippetitus Registered

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    and for those who haven't had their coffee this morning...

    my favourite sexy black top got mixed up in the bleach wash... it came out kinda greeny grey with tie die splodges

    if i put it in the red wash or the blue wash or any of the other colour washes, it will likely change colour but will never be sexy black again

    if i ever want it black again it has to go in with my new black jeans... or is it genes?

    ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2009
  16. jinnyfizz

    jinnyfizz Coataholic Registered

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    :lol: :lol: :lol: ROFPMSL!!!!!
     
  17. Schmick

    Schmick Graeme Registered

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    I like your way of thinking beaker :lol: (w00t) :lol:
     
  18. bertha

    bertha New Member Registered

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    From colour preference at shows, we get indepth lectures on genes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Isn't it amazing.

    I should re dye your top, how on earth did you manage to put a black top in a bleach wash???????????
     
  19. Seraphina

    Seraphina Active Member Registered

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    In depth?!!! (w00t) :wacko:

    I apologise, maybe I should ask the mod to remove my posts? I just thought that since what colour is possible or not was brought up, some people reading this thread may be interested. But hey, in the past breeders managed without the most basic understanding of genetics, so why bother now. :)
     
  20. bertha

    bertha New Member Registered

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    :cheers: :thumbsup:
     

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