Difficulty walking on lead

[Jan Woodhall]

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Cannot get a lead and collar that is safe with my dog (Borzoi) He walks beautifully at heel when calm but when his looney moment comes suddenly he is uncontrollable and dangerous for him (and others) to take him out. I had a choke chain on my Borzoi many years ago, but I really do not remember her being anything but calm except when running in the field, even indoor play was! This one, whether it is because he is a boy or not, is loving, and gentle and mad and challenging - help! Thanks

 

[lurcherman]

Choke chains are not for me, how old and how long have you had it?

 

[JudyN]

There's two sides to this - tools you can use (harness, headcollar, etc.), and behaviour modification - I'll just address the first for now...

Are you able to predict these loony moments? Do they happen towards the end of a walk (after how long?), when he's seen other dogs, after he's been 'good' for a long time, in open areas, alongside roads, or whatever? Will he have had some offlead time beforehand, and does he only do this when on lead?

Also, what does he do, exactly? Is he lunging at other dogs and people, or jumping up on you?

I agree with Lurcherman, choke chains are aversives, and rarely help.

 

[Jan Woodhall]

Choke chains are not for me, how old and how long have you had it?

Thanks for speedy response. ~The choke chain was 40 years ago! No I no longer had it, but I used it correctly and it was only ever in action if the dog lunged, for example at a moving object (cat or rabbit) and instantly released automatically when she responded, it was a split second action. It is not something that I want to go down the route of now, I know so much more and aversives are never a good thing, I try to divert his attention when possible but he really does have a switch from sanity to loonisy! No triggers.

Choke chains are not for me, how old and how long have you had it?

 

[Jan Woodhall]

There's two sides to this - tools you can use (harness, headcollar, etc.), and behaviour modification - I'll just address the first for now...

Are you able to predict these loony moments? Do they happen towards the end of a walk (after how long?), when he's seen other dogs, after he's been 'good' for a long time, in open areas, alongside roads, or whatever? Will he have had some offlead time beforehand, and does he only do this when on lead?

Also, what does he do, exactly? Is he lunging at other dogs and people, or jumping up on you?

I agree with Lurcherman, choke chains are aversives, and rarely help.

Hi, Judy N. Thank you again for your speedy response and help! The quick and simple answer is that he has a 'switch' and no triggers! He has not been outside the garden since I had him (big garden (ish) ) He races round and round the planted areas at around 30 mph or more! I throw his toys and he fetches them back (most of the time! LOL) I am desperate to get him out, but due to the 10.5 hour journey we had home when I bought him he understandably stresses when going in the car. I am unable to take him out alone currently, and I need someone to come, which should ideally be done every day for a week or so, but that is hard I have no family, or friends close by. When he has a 'moment' he runs at top speed and if he cannot do that he will bite the lead and pulls me with him in a tug of war style. I have tried various distractions and the nearest thing I can say works sometimes is a SPRAT! LOL But tbh, he is not food orientated and so that is only working sometimes! I always attempt to use passive communication, however, I have on several occasions had to raise my voice to him to get his attention -like when he is about to dive headlong over the fencing round the pond I am trying to keep him out of for his safety atm. He will listen, and once I have his attention he will usually stop or come to me, but only when he 'comes down to earth'! I really am close to panic mode currently, I know he needs to get out and we can walk for miles, he can also come with me to the horse yard and run to his hearts content round the fields with me. But it is getting over the initial hurdle.

 

[Jan Woodhall]

Hi, Judy N. Thank you again for your speedy response and help! The quick and simple answer is that he has a 'switch' and no triggers! He has not been outside the garden since I had him (big garden (ish) ) He races round and round the planted areas at around 30 mph or more! I throw his toys and he fetches them back (most of the time! LOL) I am desperate to get him out, but due to the 10.5 hour journey we had home when I bought him he understandably stresses when going in the car. I am unable to take him out alone currently, and I need someone to come, which should ideally be done every day for a week or so, but that is hard I have no family, or friends close by. When he has a 'moment' he runs at top speed and if he cannot do that he will bite the lead and pulls me with him in a tug of war style. I have tried various distractions and the nearest thing I can say works sometimes is a SPRAT! LOL But tbh, he is not food orientated and so that is only working sometimes! I always attempt to use passive communication, however, I have on several occasions had to raise my voice to him to get his attention -like when he is about to dive headlong over the fencing round the pond I am trying to keep him out of for his safety atm. He will listen, and once I have his attention he will usually stop or come to me, but only when he 'comes down to earth'! I really am close to panic mode currently, I know he needs to get out and we can walk for miles, he can also come with me to the horse yard and run to his hearts content round the fields with me. But it is getting over the initial hurdle.

Sorry Judy N, also would like to say he has been tried with a safety harness and he was not overly keen, and it was wa-ay too hot for him, conventional collars just slip off when he pulls back, and I hate having a tug of war with him, it is so against my learnings and my teachings! I am not over keen with the halters either, many I see are so close to the dogs eyes, they simply are not safe in the hands of the less aware!

 

[Rinkydinkydo]

Have you looked at the martingale collars.

 

[JudyN]

OK, there's quite a lot to unpick there. I'll put a few thoughts down now, but will try to come back to it later.

- You say he's not been out of the garden, so I'm not sure why he needs to be on lead, or why you can't just drop it when he kicks off. If you're just working on lead skills, then you could end the heel-walking session much sooner, so there's less chance of him kicking off. The more he associates being on lead with being calm, and has a successful 'walk' (even if only 2 metres), the more this will become the norm. (Apologies if I'm misunderstanding your situation.)

- If he's not been outside the garden, he might be understimulated, so look at activities that will keep his brain ticking. Have a look at Nina Ottoson activity games online - they're expensive, but you can make similar types of games, even if just hiding treats under cups. Also, impulse control training can really help - check out

It gives their brain a workout, and also really can help teach them to control their behaviour.

- Is his conventional collar a sighthound collar? If not, I'd get him a sighthound collar - they're wider, so less likely to slip off.

- Personally, a Gentle Leader headcollar really helped when my big lad was an adolescent - it fitted him better than a Halti. I agree that they can be misused, but I treated it a bit like shark fishing... you're using it to gently lead the dog back to you, never to jerk him round. My dog worked out quite quickly that lunging at other dogs just wasn't working any more, started walking nicely and got rewarded for it, and then I didn't need to use it any more. And it is, of course, a better option than you getting injured when he kicks off. So I wouldn't rule it out completely as an option.

- Fear of the car. I don't know if you've done anything to address this, but you could walk up to the car with him, give him a treat, and walk back. Then open the car door/boot, give him a treat, and go back. Build up through getting in the car, spending quality time with him in there (I taught mine to not try to chew my hand off when I was holding a treat), to you sitting in the driving seat, moving the car one foot, then out the drive and back in, round the block... all over a number of days.

 

[lurcherman]

Does sound like a very good harness is what I’d be thinking off at this stage, I walked a big strong mastiff x bulldog and until he knew me and vice versa I had two leads on him , one on his collar and one on his halti

 

[Hemlock]

This is a good time to desensitise him to the car. Work up in stages from having him near the car and reward, near car with boot open, reward, feed a small amount of his meal by the car then in the car, sit in the boot and feed him, have him in the boot with you, leave boot open and you sit in driver's seat, then with engine running for a very short time (30 seconds) tiny increments until he is happy to scoff his food in the back of the car with you in the driver's seat. Then shut him in and immediately open boot again etc etc. It doesn't answer your original question BUT it is part of the answer in that once he accepts car travel as a Good Thing, you will have more scope for where you go walking.

For harness, I recommend one with a fastening at the chest and another just behind his neck. Walk on the latter, but when he lunges, the chest attachment will turn him towards you rather than tow you along.

Crossposted with JudyN!

 

[Jan Woodhall]

Have you looked at the martingale collars.

Thanks RinkyDinkyDo - just sent a message off to Martingale, will await their response!

 

[Jan Woodhall]

Does sound like a very good harness is what I’d be thinking off at this stage, I walked a big strong mastiff x bulldog and until he knew me and vice versa I had two leads on him , one on his collar and one on his halti

Hi, Lurcherman, and thank you. The difficulty is this sanity switch! you know the one, when he is good he is very, very, good - and when he FLIPS he is INSANE! Things become a tug of war game and he just pulls me all over the place! LOL - don't have that problem with the horses!

 

[Jan Woodhall]

This is a good time to desensitise him to the car. Work up in stages from having him near the car and reward, near car with boot open, reward, feed a small amount of his meal by the car then in the car, sit in the boot and feed him, have him in the boot with you, leave boot open and you sit in driver's seat, then with engine running for a very short time (30 seconds) tiny increments until he is happy to scoff his food in the back of the car with you in the driver's seat. Then shut him in and immediately open boot again etc etc. It doesn't answer your original question BUT it is part of the answer in that once he accepts car travel as a Good Thing, you will have more scope for where you go walking.

For harness, I recommend one with a fastening at the chest and another just behind his neck. Walk on the latter, but when he lunges, the chest attachment will turn him towards you rather than tow you along.

Crossposted with JudyN!

Thanks Hemlock,

All good solid advice, I have a Freelander so he has to go up and down a very steep ramp! I have put non slip paint over, and also glued wooden slats to help him grip, he will go up and down it very happily now, and will sit in the car once, but repeat - oh, dear no! I guess it is just a case of keep trying I can only get the boot closed if I have someone sitting in the back seat and feeding him treats! patience I guess!

 

[Jan Woodhall]

OK, there's quite a lot to unpick there. I'll put a few thoughts down now, but will try to come back to it later.

- You say he's not been out of the garden, so I'm not sure why he needs to be on lead, or why you can't just drop it when he kicks off. If you're just working on lead skills, then you could end the heel-walking session much sooner, so there's less chance of him kicking off. The more he associates being on lead with being calm, and has a successful 'walk' (even if only 2 metres), the more this will become the norm. (Apologies if I'm misunderstanding your situation.)

- If he's not been outside the garden, he might be understimulated, so look at activities that will keep his brain ticking. Have a look at Nina Ottoson activity games online - they're expensive, but you can make similar types of games, even if just hiding treats under cups. Also, impulse control training can really help - check out

It gives their brain a workout, and also really can help teach them to control their behaviour.

- Is his conventional collar a sighthound collar? If not, I'd get him a sighthound collar - they're wider, so less likely to slip off.

- Personally, a Gentle Leader headcollar really helped when my big lad was an adolescent - it fitted him better than a Halti. I agree that they can be misused, but I treated it a bit like shark fishing... you're using it to gently lead the dog back to you, never to jerk him round. My dog worked out quite quickly that lunging at other dogs just wasn't working any more, started walking nicely and got rewarded for it, and then I didn't need to use it any more. And it is, of course, a better option than you getting injured when he kicks off. So I wouldn't rule it out completely as an option.

- Fear of the car. I don't know if you've done anything to address this, but you could walk up to the car with him, give him a treat, and walk back. Then open the car door/boot, give him a treat, and go back. Build up through getting in the car, spending quality time with him in there (I taught mine to not try to chew my hand off when I was holding a treat), to you sitting in the driving seat, moving the car one foot, then out the drive and back in, round the block... all over a number of days.

Thanks Judy N, really appreciate your input. I have had some great advise and it is good that it sounds like we are all on the same wavelength where training is concerned. For the most part Robin is a dream, we have a good relationship and I think he must like me, which is helpful. I have studied various genre of natural horsemanships, this has helped exponentially with the way I deal with everything in life and Ve+ reinforcement is used. He is polite and gentle, but has this manic switch which makes it very frightening for me if it were to occur when outside my garden. He could tug backwards into the road! He is only playing! I agree 100% some extra play things would help. I like the idea of the games, rather than just playing 'kill the fluffy toy!' and 'shake it!' LOL Something that will divert and stimulate his active brain. I never do anything for more than a couple of minutes as his attention span does not warrant any longer. I am still reinforcing 'heel' 'sit' 'down' on a regular basis, which he will do instantly when in a sane frame of mind and completely ignore when not! LOL

 

[Jan Woodhall]

OK, there's quite a lot to unpick there. I'll put a few thoughts down now, but will try to come back to it later.

- You say he's not been out of the garden, so I'm not sure why he needs to be on lead, or why you can't just drop it when he kicks off. If you're just working on lead skills, then you could end the heel-walking session much sooner, so there's less chance of him kicking off. The more he associates being on lead with being calm, and has a successful 'walk' (even if only 2 metres), the more this will become the norm. (Apologies if I'm misunderstanding your situation.)

- If he's not been outside the garden, he might be understimulated, so look at activities that will keep his brain ticking. Have a look at Nina Ottoson activity games online - they're expensive, but you can make similar types of games, even if just hiding treats under cups. Also, impulse control training can really help - check out

It gives their brain a workout, and also really can help teach them to control their behaviour.

- Is his conventional collar a sighthound collar? If not, I'd get him a sighthound collar - they're wider, so less likely to slip off.

- Personally, a Gentle Leader headcollar really helped when my big lad was an adolescent - it fitted him better than a Halti. I agree that they can be misused, but I treated it a bit like shark fishing... you're using it to gently lead the dog back to you, never to jerk him round. My dog worked out quite quickly that lunging at other dogs just wasn't working any more, started walking nicely and got rewarded for it, and then I didn't need to use it any more. And it is, of course, a better option than you getting injured when he kicks off. So I wouldn't rule it out completely as an option.

- Fear of the car. I don't know if you've done anything to address this, but you could walk up to the car with him, give him a treat, and walk back. Then open the car door/boot, give him a treat, and go back. Build up through getting in the car, spending quality time with him in there (I taught mine to not try to chew my hand off when I was holding a treat), to you sitting in the driving seat, moving the car one foot, then out the drive and back in, round the block... all over a number of days.

Video was pretty cool! 'food for thought!' Will certainly give that a go!

 

[Jan Woodhall]

To everyone who posted on this thread a huge thanks! My puppy is a dream to take out now after only 3 days! I found a body halter that was light and fit beautifully from .....B & M!!!!! He walks really well in it. Sits at kerb often without being asked and waits patiently! NEVER pulls on the lead and I really cannot ask anymore from him! Love my puppy! Thanks again!

 

[Hemlock]

Good for you - we can suggest but YOU are the one who has to do the work.

Don't get upset if you have a few regressions - this is normal - just stay calm and reflect "This too shall pass".

Laying down scents in the garden for him to follow with you is a great way to use up the energy of any young dog - just ask if you want to know more.

And we love photos......