Groups and BIS

[Claire]

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Following on form Karens topic did any one read  Mike Herwins article in Dog World  6/9/02

Calling for reform in the show world. The system is similar to the irish system , but in ireland we do not have a champions class so a champion may still compete for the Green Star.

I think there are pros and cons to the system, has anyone else read it, I would value your opinions

 

[Karen]

This is what I meant really in my topic and its also what dessie is saying in hers.

If you get rid of the groups and best in show you save thousands of pounds on entertaining a small group of people who do all those appointments, and no Im not having a go at them, I am thinking only of the quality of the breeds and our pockets.

I think the champions should have a class of thier own and then challenge for best of breed after the tickets have been awarded.  So they still have the pleasure of going best and topping the breed.  If you end it there more people go home happy and the breed must benefit. I would hate cheap champions but I also dislike losing all those good dogs that would have been worthy champions but for the one or two dogs that take all regardless.

So its back to the top, do we really know how good our Whippet is if it beats an Elkhound in the group?

 

[Claire]

I definatley agree with the champions classes and I think that the point system is ok.

I had never really thought about the groups in the way you have described before.

I think it would be BRILL to go BIS and don't know if things would be "the same" without it, but could live without it.

I am a bit indecisive (i think) maybe not oh I don't know !!

HELP MEEEEEEEE

 

[Millie]

I also agree with Champion classes and I don't think it will result in cheap champions as there is a lot of quality out there.

I went and read the Mike Herwins article in the dog paper after you had pointed it out Claire, and yes there are a lot of good sugestions in it..........had to read it over a few times to understand bits of it...........but I'm sure most of it could work.

Wonder if anyone at the KC read it!!!

 

[dawn]

I cannot see the value in getting CC's without the challenge of ALL eligible dogs being there. It must by the very nature of selection 'devalue' the title of Champion. By all means have a seperate class for Ch's but they must challenge for the CC. This argument periodically rears its head, the earliest we at Aphrael remember is with Ch Selinko Another Lady when she was taking all before her. Then it was Nutshell of Nevedith and most recently Single Malt. There may be an argument that, for example, 6RCC's could equal 3CC's and I think this would be more reasonable and acceptable.

If you cannot stand open competition you should not enter the field. If you think judge 'A' will only give exhibitor 'B' the CC you should refuse to enter the show but please do not moan because 'B' got the CC as there was no competition.

Over the years we have beaten some top winning dogs and been beaten by the same dogs a week later. We have exhibited under judges we would no longer cross the road to show under and shown under judges who we respect but who do not like our type of dog, so we no longer exhibit under them either.

What I am saying is that sometimes you win and sometimes you lose but we all go in with dogs we think could do well on the day and we are all in line for the CC (hopefully).

If we start saying that 3CC's are the maximum a dog can win then we will get up to 20 new Ch's each year which MUST be a devaluation of the title.

Maybe someone good at difficult sums could tell us, on average, how many now get made up p.a.

 

[Karen]

I dont think Mike Herwin was talking about bad sportsmanship thats a different thing altogether and as you say Dawn, if you dont want to lose dont ever go.

If you remove the group and best in show ALL the glory goes to the best of breed, this would be Claire's magic best in show.

In the US the breeds are barely given a mention anymore, it is all multi best in group/show winners.  The breeds are rushed throu, and now over here we have judges saying things like 'had to get a move on to get my BOB into the group'.

So no cheap Champions, perhaps as you say x ammount of RCCs = CC, the big winners will always be the big winners and I cant think of one that was undeserving.

 

[Claire]

I am happy when i win a class.

I was over the moon last year to be placed in a big open bitch class at NEWS

and again placed in a P Grad Bitch class this year at WCOS

and also have handled two dogs for Reserve Green stars.

Cant wait till it is my own dog on the end of the lead !

 

[dawn]

Thanks to Claire's skill with the computer we have finally managed to read Mike Herwins article. It makes interesting reading as a discussion document (white paper?) . 50 points to make up a champion with between 1 and 10 points at each show with (for eg) Crufts, SKC  WKC and ?Birmingham National? being 10 pointers. At breed shows 5 to 10 points depending on numbers present. Open and Ch shows without 'majors' (now where have I heard that before???) award 1 to 4 points. At least 2 majors should be needed for title. "This would bring the UK far more into line with the US and Europe".

Why should we change? Why should we have breeders quoting they have bred 50+ champions in one breed? Just because the US and 'Europe' (I thought we were part of Europe - But obviously not!) do things one way does not mean that way is correct.

Mikes quote that 'there are usually several dogs in numerically large breeds worthy of CC's' is quite correct HOWEVER his next comment that change 'would improve...quality' is questionable.

'We need to make shows more attractive to the public' Why? is the question. Why have people who are not interested wandering round looking at our dogs, which should be tied to the bench, and possibly interfering with these dogs? I have been to many agricultural shows where dogs left on benches are 'petted' by strangers and who is responsible should the dog bite a child whilst on its bench? The exhibitor!

Mike goes on to mention flyball and agility as these would attract visitors to shows ''these are far more interesting than conformation". What are we discussing here? A day out for exhibitors to enjoy showing their dogs or a day out for people to see dogs?

There are many other debatable points in his article that may have started with good intentions but IMO went off the tracks.

 

[Karen]

At Crufts one year we played, Guess what the exhibitor does for a living. This was without doubt one of the most enjoyable dog shows I ever went to.

Someone we had down as an accountant turned out to be a scrap metal dealer!!

I love the shows as they are most of the time, but then my maths are so bad under a points system I would never be sure if I made one up or not ???

 

[Claire]

In ireland the point system is easy !!!! (For whippets) Thank goodness

Because there are only a handfull of exhibiters. The number of points is the same as the number of (eligible) dogs.

5 dogs and 3 Bitches = Greenstar Dog 5 points Greenstar Bitch 3 Points the bestof breed will take the total points = 8Greenstar points.

If you win the hound group you take the highest Greenstar value.

Try reading this. it is explained much better than I could ever do

http://www.irishdogsonline.com/IDTheGreenStarSystem.htm

 

[Millie]

Cor blimey!! all this adding up..........maybe we should stay as we are...........and just have a good day out...........after all thats what its all about.

And we all know we take the best dogs home with us.

 

[dessie]

Well I know I certainly take the best dog home!!!  LOL      

 

[Millie]

 Depends which one your taking home Caroline LOL  

 

[dessie]

Or looking at it another way, it depends which one(s) I take out!!!