Does anyone have experience of handicapping by times? If so could you please tell us how you operate this system, and how good do you find it? Also how easy or otherwise to organise.
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Handicapping by timing
- Thread starter Liz Third
- Start date
Hi Liz,
If you use 1/2 yard per 0.03 seconds you won't be too far off.
A few years ago we used to hold a timed handicap club meeting at South Cotswolds WRC. All the dogs ran solo and were timed, then handicap races made up as above. I think it used to work out ok and gave a few different results from normal.
Whilst on the subject of handicapping you may be interested in the handicapping chart that's in Freeman Lloyd book 'The Whippet and Race Dog' (Published in 1895).
To quote:
'Starts required by dogs of different weights in a 200yds. handicap so that each dog will be on equal terms.'
Weight of dog/bitch lbs Start for dog, yds. Start for bitch, yds.
Over 28 - -
28 1 0
27 2 1
26 3 2
25 4 3
24 5 4
23 6 5
22 7 6
21 8 7
20 9 1/2 7 1/2
19 11 8
18 12 1/2 9 1/2
17 14 11
16 16 13
15 18 1/2 14 1/2
14 21 1/2 17
13 24 1/2 20
12 27 1/2 23 1/2
11 31 26 1/2
10 35 30
9 39 34
8 43 38
7 47 43
6 52 48
5 58 54
I think Whippets have grown a bit in the last 100 years....
If you use 1/2 yard per 0.03 seconds you won't be too far off.
A few years ago we used to hold a timed handicap club meeting at South Cotswolds WRC. All the dogs ran solo and were timed, then handicap races made up as above. I think it used to work out ok and gave a few different results from normal.
Whilst on the subject of handicapping you may be interested in the handicapping chart that's in Freeman Lloyd book 'The Whippet and Race Dog' (Published in 1895).
To quote:
'Starts required by dogs of different weights in a 200yds. handicap so that each dog will be on equal terms.'
Weight of dog/bitch lbs Start for dog, yds. Start for bitch, yds.
Over 28 - -
28 1 0
27 2 1
26 3 2
25 4 3
24 5 4
23 6 5
22 7 6
21 8 7
20 9 1/2 7 1/2
19 11 8
18 12 1/2 9 1/2
17 14 11
16 16 13
15 18 1/2 14 1/2
14 21 1/2 17
13 24 1/2 20
12 27 1/2 23 1/2
11 31 26 1/2
10 35 30
9 39 34
8 43 38
7 47 43
6 52 48
5 58 54
I think Whippets have grown a bit in the last 100 years....
Thanks Nigel, for that information. I seem to remember that when we used this system some years ago we used 1 yd per 6 or 7 secs so that is similar to your 1/2 yd per 3 secs. Did you use this system regularly or just for a specific meeting?
I found the handicapping chart fascinating. The mind boggles at the thought of the 5lb whippet with the 58 yd start! I also wonder at the reason for giving dogs a better handicap than bitches?
I found the handicapping chart fascinating. The mind boggles at the thought of the 5lb whippet with the 58 yd start! I also wonder at the reason for giving dogs a better handicap than bitches?
Hi Liz
I am assuming that you have just missed out a couple of decimal places but yes, your yard per 0.06 secs would be the same as our half yard per 0.03 secs.
We regularly use an electronic timer at Gloucester WRC (even though we are usually racing off weight handicaps) and I have noticed that the times can vary quite a bit on the same track from week to week depending on the going. Also the times can vary from round to round. Usually all the times seem to be a bit faster (anything up to about 0.2 seconds?) when the sun comes out. On top of all this, some dogs run slower on their first run and some run faster.
That was a good excuse to use a new smiley!
So whilst not an exact science, times are a good place to start assessing the speed of a dog. You could maybe combine your handicap system with a system of moving dogs back when they win and forward when they come last. At least the slower dogs get more of a chance to win. It's not quite so popular with the people with Open class dogs of course, so it's just as well the Opens are there.
Re dogs getting a better handicap than bitches - pound per pound, bitches are considered faster than dogs. Note the number of non-ped opens where bitches and dogs are run seperately.
I am assuming that you have just missed out a couple of decimal places but yes, your yard per 0.06 secs would be the same as our half yard per 0.03 secs.
We regularly use an electronic timer at Gloucester WRC (even though we are usually racing off weight handicaps) and I have noticed that the times can vary quite a bit on the same track from week to week depending on the going. Also the times can vary from round to round. Usually all the times seem to be a bit faster (anything up to about 0.2 seconds?) when the sun comes out. On top of all this, some dogs run slower on their first run and some run faster.
So whilst not an exact science, times are a good place to start assessing the speed of a dog. You could maybe combine your handicap system with a system of moving dogs back when they win and forward when they come last. At least the slower dogs get more of a chance to win. It's not quite so popular with the people with Open class dogs of course, so it's just as well the Opens are there.
Re dogs getting a better handicap than bitches - pound per pound, bitches are considered faster than dogs. Note the number of non-ped opens where bitches and dogs are run seperately.
We (A & T Miners Welfare WRC) race to a timing handicap, which we handicap at 0.06sec to every yard the same as Nigel & Judy's. Because our club is a non-ped club this way the faster peds can get a race with the slower non-peds by handicapping like this. It is a really good system to race by as, as the saying goes 'every dog has it's day' so it's not the same dog winning each week or if a dog wins for a couple of weeks it will have been moved back in the handicap so that the chance of it winning is very low. The big weight difference is also another reason why we don't run a weight handicap as we have 30lb dogs that run the same times as 23lbers so by running off the handicap this way the bigger dogs stands just as good a chance as the little ones.
We do have a weight limit though of 35lb just for safety reasons really, and a yardage limit so that a dog can't give more than 20yds, as any more than this would be sole destroying for the back dog.
Hope i've not confused you too much, i'm not very good at explaining myself !!!
We do have a weight limit though of 35lb just for safety reasons really, and a yardage limit so that a dog can't give more than 20yds, as any more than this would be sole destroying for the back dog.
Hope i've not confused you too much, i'm not very good at explaining myself !!!
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Because our club is a non-ped club this way the faster peds can get a race with the slower non-peds by handicapping like this.
Hmm here's me been thinking it's an "open" club all these years!! Seriously though I think time is the only way to run an handicap as Vicky (a top handicapper) says it invariably runs out fair & square our own ped even wins an odd heat now & again. If ped racing truly want's to include ALL!! ped whippets including the bigger heavier show breds time handicapping must be the way ahead.
Hmm here's me been thinking it's an "open" club all these years!! Seriously though I think time is the only way to run an handicap as Vicky (a top handicapper) says it invariably runs out fair & square our own ped even wins an odd heat now & again. If ped racing truly want's to include ALL!! ped whippets including the bigger heavier show breds time handicapping must be the way ahead.
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Hi All
Well heres my bit.
As most of you know i'm the Secretary of the Northern PWRC, we hcp on a yd/lb with a 12yd maximum, I personaly and know most members feel the same that hcping on weight does work.
The problem arises if you get a new dog which is very large (we have a max 32lb limit) and on the slower end of the scale but then the race manager can award that dog a fair hcp, ie:after week 1 could give it a minus 6lb hcp meaning a 30lb whippet would weigh 24lb instantly putting it in with a chance,
The Northerns top 10 this year bears this out with everything in the top 10 from flying machines running of a +12lb hcp(ie a 22lb whippet running off 34lb) to a bitch we own who is probably the slowest in the country, (we did not breed this one my wife bought her when she saw her and felt sorry for her but thats a long story) who is 16lb but runs off 3lb and every grade of dog in between. but with having a 12yd max hcp this means that no dog is ever out off it without a chance as the top 10 proves.
I raced Greyhounds for many years on times so i've seen it from both sides and for whippets I prefere running off weights.
details of the Northern top 10 & Xmas Party are available now on the Northerns web site at www.npwrc.ic24.net
(Edited by Mark Roberts at 3:44 pm on Dec. 11, 2001)
Well heres my bit.
As most of you know i'm the Secretary of the Northern PWRC, we hcp on a yd/lb with a 12yd maximum, I personaly and know most members feel the same that hcping on weight does work.
The problem arises if you get a new dog which is very large (we have a max 32lb limit) and on the slower end of the scale but then the race manager can award that dog a fair hcp, ie:after week 1 could give it a minus 6lb hcp meaning a 30lb whippet would weigh 24lb instantly putting it in with a chance,
The Northerns top 10 this year bears this out with everything in the top 10 from flying machines running of a +12lb hcp(ie a 22lb whippet running off 34lb) to a bitch we own who is probably the slowest in the country, (we did not breed this one my wife bought her when she saw her and felt sorry for her but thats a long story) who is 16lb but runs off 3lb and every grade of dog in between. but with having a 12yd max hcp this means that no dog is ever out off it without a chance as the top 10 proves.
I raced Greyhounds for many years on times so i've seen it from both sides and for whippets I prefere running off weights.
details of the Northern top 10 & Xmas Party are available now on the Northerns web site at www.npwrc.ic24.net
(Edited by Mark Roberts at 3:44 pm on Dec. 11, 2001)
Sorry Terry i was getting a bit carried away with myself there, just to clarify for anyone with ped whippets who fancies coming down, The club is affiliated (you know what i mean! - my spelling is nearly as bad as Marks, sorry mark) with the BWRA (non-peds) and the handicap consists of mainly non-ped whippets but as Terry says we are an open club who are more than happy to race peds (with or without passports), non-peds and Lurchers even the odd terrier, a staffie and an akita have been known to have a run. So it is basicly free to anyone who wants a run. If your non-ped or Lurcher is fast enough and under the weight limit it can go in the handicap other wise there is always someone willing to give you a run with one of the slower dog (god knows we've all got a few).
**OH AND BY THE WAY TERRY I'LL PAY YOU LATER**
(Edited by Vicky at 6:24 pm on Dec. 10, 2001)
**OH AND BY THE WAY TERRY I'LL PAY YOU LATER**
(Edited by Vicky at 6:24 pm on Dec. 10, 2001)
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Hi Vicky
No affence takun, I must agree with Terry though? i've seen you're hcping a few times and a lot of the greyhound tracks could do with a hand from you.
oh thats it now i've spoiled my reputation. ive been nice to someone.
No affence takun, I must agree with Terry though? i've seen you're hcping a few times and a lot of the greyhound tracks could do with a hand from you.
oh thats it now i've spoiled my reputation. ive been nice to someone.
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Mark must have started on the xmas booze already!!!
, good comments though about time handicapps, its a shame more opens are'nt ran like that, it would give the dogs whom are'nt quite open class a chance, maybe it could be tried in pedi world?,or would people not take to it?
, good comments though about time handicapps, its a shame more opens are'nt ran like that, it would give the dogs whom are'nt quite open class a chance, maybe it could be tried in pedi world?,or would people not take to it?Cheers Mark, people will start to talk you know!! Although i musn't take the credit it really is an easy system to work by as long as the dogs and my timing is fairly consistent, i can usually tell straight away if i didn't catch the lids with the stop watch. Apart from that the handicap usually goes to plan (although i haven't yet workd out how to make my dogs win - what am i doing wrong??) no seriously as much as we rant on about how good time handicapping is it's nice to have a different handicap once every so often and we usually try and run a 50 or 25yd dash when we can.
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Vicky
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Vicky
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We try and run a dash when someone donates alcohol:biggrin:
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Hi Michelle
At the Northern we've tried hcping on time several time as we have electric timing but as Judy said they change so much between runs that a dog who did say 10.09 in its first run may be 3l faster or slower in it's next run so it always seemed to end up with a big gap at the end anyway, (but we don't have Vicky?
) but at the moment the weight hcp is working out realy well with the final and heats ect regularly having 4 dogs within 1l at the line,
At the Northern we've tried hcping on time several time as we have electric timing but as Judy said they change so much between runs that a dog who did say 10.09 in its first run may be 3l faster or slower in it's next run so it always seemed to end up with a big gap at the end anyway, (but we don't have Vicky?
Hi Michelle
Just read you comment about timed handicaps and although I agree it is a good system for club racing, I don't think it would go down well at opens. After all open racing is about finding the best/fastest dogs isn't it ? That's why it's so good that there are both types of racing available.
Just read you comment about timed handicaps and although I agree it is a good system for club racing, I don't think it would go down well at opens. After all open racing is about finding the best/fastest dogs isn't it ? That's why it's so good that there are both types of racing available.
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Hi Vicky
Just checked my pocket, how does £1.31 & a polo mint sound.
Not exactly what United pay for a transfer but it's a start?
Just checked my pocket, how does £1.31 & a polo mint sound.
Not exactly what United pay for a transfer but it's a start?
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A 4 pack of blue WKD and vicky would quite happily leave us!!!!!
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