Help in keeping get puppy off suite.

[Kody]

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We have had a puppy cocker spaniel for a couple of weeks now. He is 11weeks old now and generally well behaved.

We have a problem keeping him off the suite. Every time he goes on it we take him right back off it, constantly, but as soon as our back is turned he is back up on it.

We have tried treats, praise, everything but he still climbs up. When we lift him off we give him a toy to play with or move him to his bed/blanket (not the bed he sleeps in), just a bed/blanket we have for him to get comfy on in the living room.

He can be aggressive at times as well when telling him to get down.

Any tips?

Toilet training is a hit and miss (understandable).

He knows the sit command and sometimes the wait.

Is murder at recall.

And has 2 or 3 uncontrollable 10min spells through the day when he changes into a Tazmanian devil. Nothing gets him to stop!

 

[Kody]

Really need help/advice. He now attacks/bites the wife aggressively when going on the suite. My wife has tried to yelp and ignore it but bites becoming worse/more aggressive.

It lasts for 10mins..after that he goes back to being an angel, playing with us/toys.

My wife is with him most of the day (so her relationship with Kody is great) and has him sitting on command/ok with recall (work in progress) but there is no stopping him when he turns into Tazmanian devil.

I want to nip this in the bud now.

We have in the last 3 days (timescale of when he has got really bad at attacking when on suite) been using puppy paste on toys as a treat......could this cause the hyperness?

He does get lots of attention and is hardly left alone. I sometimes think we are trying too hard.

 

[gypsysmum2]

Rest assured that this is all normal, if undesirable, puppy behaviour.

He enjoys getting on the suite so he persists in trying. Dogs have no concept of right and wrong they just do what they enjoy doing. It is our job to train an alternative behaviour that is incompatible with the unwanted one, and reward the wanted behaviour.

It sounds as though you have been doing all the right things. A couple of tips. Make your life easier by blocking off the suite with items of furniture/boxes etc so that he cannot get on it. When he does gain access do not go down the route of chastising/grabbing him etc. He will see all of that as getting lots of lovely attention! Lure him off with a fantastic treat, introducing a word like "off" as he starts to comply. Repeat. repeat, repeat until you are able to say "off" and he will come off for the treat. Then find him something else to do that means he will get attention for doing it. Perhaps keep some toys separate so that you can produce a different toy for him to play with.

Playbiting is best dealt with using the "ouch" technique, as your wife has been doing. Timing is everything. The yelp must come immediately his teeth touch skin or clothing. Don't say another word just withdraw all attention and stand with folded arms. Biting is never an accident, it is not allowed. After doing this consistently for about a week, and making sure that everyone who comes into contact with the puppy is doing the same thing, then move to stage 2. This means yelping and leaving the room so that the puppy is isolated for a short period. The idea is that the puppy comes to realise that biting gives him a negative emotion because all his fun stops immediately his teeth touch us. He will want to avoid the negative emotion and so will start to inhibit his bite.

The "zoomies" are common in all puppies and young dogs. They live in our lives and sometimes need to release the stress that this causes them. Just try to ignore him and pay attention to him when he is calm. Some foods can make dogs hyperactive so try making your own Kong filler out of his main diet to see if that helps. Puppy food can be very rich too. Small breeds can move to adult food quite quickly. Ask for advice at your vet's.

A book by Gwen Bailey called "The Perfect Puppy" is excellent.

Does Kody go to puppy classes? If not, try to find some run by a member of the APDT. All the other puppy owners will be going through the same things that you are and the trainer will help everyone to understand the problems, as they arise, and help you to deal with them. Socialisation is the most important thing you will ever do with your dog. Everything else can be cured or modified later. A poorly socialised puppy may never recover from that poor start in life.

 

[Kody]

Thanks for reply.

Kody gets his second jag on Monday so another week before we can get him out and into puppy classes.

My wife has tried the ouch when biting, he just barks and tries to bite her more and more, she can only take so much.

Another question, we are having problems with 'let go', if he grabs a bit of clothing he will not let go, we have tried the holding the item still and not wrestling in the hope he will get bored and relax his jaws but he just goes into a crocodile roll, we have tried his favourite treat but even that does not work.

I understand puppy's like to get teeth into anything but he can't seem to be without anything in his mouth unless he is sleeping. He has plenty of different toys.

Again, thanks for taking time to reply.

 

[excuseme]

I have owned the working type cockers for 30 years and they can try your patience "Big time" ! but I couldn't imagine life without them now.

You do need to be very firm with them and start from the first day that they arrive in their new home.

I m a firm believer in the puppy learning its name first and then very quickly the word NO! If you can stop your puppy doing something un desirable quickly, this word can make life a whole lot easier, with good boy/girl as kind praise goes a long way. This word NO is hardly ever used in our household, although all of the dogs know what it means and react instantly.

Words must be simple and clear and not in long sentences ! an action with the command word is also needed. The word "off" in our household means OFF! and that means now!! so a very sharp push off is needed with the word NO and OFF said very firmly. (you are telling your puppy, not asking)

No "pussy footing" around for fear of frightening your puppy, these cockers are tough little buggers! they are very intelligent and learn very quickly.

Asking your cocker puppy does not work, they need to be "told" and shown, firmness is very much needed with many of them.

I am quiet aware that others do not like this word NO and many breeds react differently to different methods of training.

The Working type cockers are tough and sometimes need a firm hand/boss, they make fantastic family members and super little working dogs too.

PS, One other thought. How long are you away and out at work each day?

 

[Kody]

My wife does not work, so there is someone there all the time.

He has been left alone for half an hour and was fine.

Our only real problem is the biting/mad 20mins/and constantly going on the suite.

Sit and recall(hit and a miss) are working fine but 'No' is ignored. From day one he has not been allowed on suite.

Do you have a tip for 'letting go'? Right now it is a struggle, 5min wait until he relaxes mouth to get it out (clothes/paper etc), he is fine with toys.....he let's us remove them from his mouth but anything else is a struggle.

Ps thanks for replying.

 

[excuseme]

You must re enforce the "NO" with a very firm action every time and be consistent, (don't make it pleasant for him and lift him off) give him a good shove!

This is not cruelty as some may think, he has got to learn and you must take charge!

 

[gypsysmum2]

I would teach a "leave" command like this.

Have a mild treat in hand one and a super treat in hand two. Anchor hand one to the ground and let him sniff and investigate all he likes. Look for the moment when he lifts his nose off hand one and immediately produce the super treat from hand two from behind your back. Repeat until you see that he has "got it". He realises that, if he takes his nose off hand one a super treat arrives.

At first he only has to lift his nose a short way from the treat in hand one. You then add a word, like "leave", to the action as he performs it. Practice for a while with food and then transfer to his toys.

Play tug for a short while with a super treat in your hidden hand. Stop playing and say "leave". He may not make the connection at first so let him sniff the super treat in a closed hand and put it behind your back again. If he leaves the toy get in quickly with the word "leave" followed immediately by the super treat.

Eventually you should be able to say "leave" and he should stop what he is doing and come looking for the fantastic treat that is on offer.

A good APDT trainer should teach this exercise at puppy classes if you can get to some?

 

[Kody]

Some good advice given (& some will be tried).

We are trying a few different things today (let you know what if a success) but so far so good. He has been an angel all day, played well and some good command response. No biting wife is a bonus.

Fingers crossed.

Will try the 2 treat leave command tomorrow as he has been hit with a couple of new commands today.

 

[gypsysmum2]

Good thinking. Take it slowly and solve the most pressing problems first. Prevent the less pressing problems until you have time, patience and energy to deal with them

 

[Kody]

Good day on Sunday when he was an absolute angel all day.

Monday went downhill (going for wife again) and came home tonight to find him in a frenzy at the wife. Tazmanian devil does not cover it, he bounces off walls he is travelling that fast and just snarls at her and flies through the air to bite her. He eventually tires enough to to get a hold of him and he does calm down but then just for no reason flies st the wife again.

Wife is determined to beat this but it is really hard on her, he has drew blood plenty times and made a mess of her top.

My wife is confident around dogs so that ain't the problem.

Going to cut out all treats and only give him his normal food. Maybe the 'extras' in the puppy treats are making him hyper, and restricting him to one toy at a time.

Going to pull back on any 'training' for now and just play with him and see if that helps him calm down.

As bad as above sounds the other 95% of the day butter wouldn't melt in his mouth.

 

[JoanneF]

What are you feeding him ( and what treats)? Some dog foods are high in additives which have a similar effect to giving a two year old child lots of sugar. The zoomies is very normal behaviour for pups but if you think it is worse than other puppies, the food might be worth looking at.

I make liver cake for training treats (don't over feed because of the vitamin a content).

500g liver

250g flour - I use rice flour as some dogs are gluten intolerant and I get mugged by the neighbourhood dogs when they see me coming

1 egg

a slosh of olive oil for his coat (or cod liver oil if anyone has a creaky dog)

Blitz the liver with the egg using a hand blender, stir in the oil and flour, bake for about 15 minutes in a 6"x9" tray lined with parchment. A knife comes out clean when it is ready.

When cold cut into pieces and freeze. It freezes in separate pieces so you can bring out a few at a time as you need them.

So no sugar, no salt and no rubbish in it, and I have yet to meet a dog that doesn't like it.

 

[Kody]

Spoke to breeder who told us to stop all puppy treats. He now only gets some of his dry food as a reward or a carrot slice (he loves them).

Still goes for my wife in frenzied attacks BUT only when she sits on the suite (he can be nice with her when she sits down)but more often than not he goes for her especially when no one else is there. Her hands are a bit of a mess.

She is now trying to show Kody who is boss by when feeding him at his meal time she will put his bowl of food Down then quickly withdraw it....then putting it back down after 30secs so he know she is in charge of his foods.

After taking advice from a friend who has cocker spaniels she has also started to 'crate him' when he goes into his biting/barking frenzy. It is only for a minute until he calms down and she let's him back out again but I am not too keen on this idea (not me getting bit though) as A I don't like the idea of 'locking them up through the day' and B he is really good at going to bed at night and I worry we may alter that. That being said my wife has emptied his 'cage' throughout the day so there is nothing in it. I will reiterate again that he is put in it for no more than a minute. She has had some success with this but it is only first day.

Breeder tells us to use a firm No! When he goes into frenzy but there is no stopping him, he turns deaf!. Down, No do not work as command words anyone recommend a new word we can introduce?.

Away from the suite my wife has (if you pardon the pun) him eating out of her hands, he does everything asked of him (allowing for him being a puppy).

He act like a puppy with everyone else in the household....me and my 2 sons and is fine with guests. There is obviously a dominance issue going on with him and my wife and especially when it comes to her sitting on the suite (no issues when she sits down on a chair at dining table.

My wife is at her wits end but is determined to get this nipped in the bud for the benefit of her and Kody.

 

[JoanneF]

"She is now trying to show Kody who is boss by when feeding him at his meal time she will put his bowl of food Down then quickly withdraw it....then putting it back down after 30secs so he know she is in charge of his foods."

NEVER, EVER do this. If your dog thinks his food (or anything else he values) is going to be taken away he will learn resource guarding. This means the dog will become aggressive when he thinks you might try and take away what he has. Suppose you were in a pub enjoying a pint or a meal and someone came along and took them away - you'd get pretty p1$$ed off and reasonably so. Your dog is no different. The pack leadership theory has long been debunked.

 

[Kody]

"She is now trying to show Kody who is boss by when feeding him at his meal time she will put his bowl of food Down then quickly withdraw it....then putting it back down after 30secs so he know she is in charge of his foods."

NEVER, EVER do this. If your dog thinks his food (or anything else he values) is going to be taken away he will learn resource guarding. This means the dog will become aggressive when he thinks you might try and take away what he has. Suppose you were in a pub enjoying a pint or a meal and someone came along and took them away - you'd get pretty p1$$ed off and reasonably so. Your dog is no different. The pack leadership theory has long been debunked.

She doesn't hide it, she just makes him wait a wee bit. A few folk recommended it. Kody does not seem bothered by it, just sits and waits patiently.

Do you have any advice on Kody going for the wife aggressively when she sits on the settee?

 

[JoanneF]

The advice Gypsysmum have about using the ouch technique and walking away. He will learn this sort of behaviour doesn't result in play,it results in his humans being really dull and boring. He may be doing what is called 'extinction burst'. This is where a behaviour that previously worked (by getting him attention even if that was a row, because to a puppy any attention is better than none) now seems to no longer work - attention is withrawn. So he ups the ante by trying his behaviour even harder. You need to keep pace snd keep ignoring and walking away.

And sorry if people recommend taking his food but it can result in serious resource guarding and is very difficult to resolve. I stand by my advice never to do it. Going back to.my example of someone taking your pint and meal - if that happened every time, how would you start to react if you saw that person approaching and you had no way of telling them verbally to leave you alone?

 

[Kody]

The ouch and walking away just makes him bark and go even more Tazmanian devil on her.

He tries to pull her off the settee.

The issue is my wife and settee, in normal puppy play if he nips one of us (it is rare)it is generally a mistake from him and just what you would call normal puppy behaviour. This is total different behaviour to what he dies to my wife on settee. The rest of the time he is brilliant with her.

Awaiting a call back from a local dog trainer and trying to get a 1-2-1 session as it is hard to explain that this is above normal puppy behaviour.

 

[JoanneF]

Perhaps he is already resource guarding the settee. Please make sure your trainer uses only positive training methods. He or she should be a member of a recognised body. If they start talking about domination or pack theory walk away. If they are a member of the APDT that is a good start. You might actually need a behaviouist rather than a trainer of it is resource guarding, choose one that is a member of COAPE or APBC.

 

[Kody]

She is a local trainer who runs very popular puppy classes at end of our street

. Well recommended.

She is doing a 121 tomorrow afternoon.

Any other area of the house/garden my wife and Kody are best buddies they have no problems, if Kody sneaks onto settee when her back is turned Kody allows my wife to remove him with little fuss, it is only a problem when he sees her sitting there and he decides to tear into her.

Thanks again for advice.

 

[gypsysmum2]

Just because she is well thought of does not make a trainer "good". She may talk the talk and walk the walk but know nothing about how dogs think. As has been said above, if she starts talking about your pup being dominant then show her the door. Dogs are not dominant with people. They have a pecking order among themselves.

It sounds as if your pup has become very confused over the sofa and your wife. Perhaps her trying to train him and having lots of interaction around the sofa has made him focus on it. Could you block it off from him altogether and could your wife sit somewhere else when the pup is running free? I know it sounds as if you are giving in but it is more like taking a breathing space and trying to prevent problems rather than face them head on.

It is hard to say without seeing the behaviour but I imagine your pup sees the sofa and your wife as a hugely exciting/stressful scenario. As soon as your wife gets near it the pup remembers all the previous encounters and gets himself into a frenzy. No amount of training is going to work while he is in this frenzy. It needs to be prevented first. Once there is a calmness then the sofa and wife scenario can be reintroduced very gradually. No learning can take place while emotions are so high. Only when calm will he learn to relax and listen to instructions.

Never see walking away from a scenario as the pup "winning". We are competitive, dogs are not. He is just not understanding what is required of him at the moment. You need to work out a strategy, where all participants can be calm, and stick with it.

Although crating him seems to solve the situation it is not really. You are just teaching him that you can put him in the crate. He really will not understand why. He does not speak English so you cannot explain it to him. Of course you have to catch him first and that brings even more excitement and adds to the whole problem.