Help with choosing a puppy

[Furdinand]

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Could anyone more knowledgeable than me help with some questions I have about selecting a puppy, especially regarding the health testing? I’m trying to be thorough and responsible in choosing a healthy pup, but I find it all a bit confusing and have been struggling to find the answers online.

We've visited three litters of miniature poodles. All seemed the puppies have been bred by caring, ethical breeders and they are all being brought up in family homes with the mother present - so definitely not puppy farms. They were all happy for me to visit as many times as needed, happy to take the pups back if there was a problem, weren't insisting on deposits straight away etc.. So hopefully all good on that front.

Q1: One of the litters we saw has an inbreeding coefficient (COI) of 5.7%, which is slightly higher than the breed average of 3.5%. However, the sire’s COI is 19.3% (7 generations complete), while the mother’s COI is 3.3%. Could someone explain (in as simple terms as possible), whether there is still a high risk of health issues from inbreeding if one of the parents has a significantly high COI?

Q2: All the litters' parents have been DNA tested for OC and PCRD-PRA. Should I also expect other health tests such as hips, eyes, VWD, or DM? I haven't found any miniature poodle breeders who offer these tests, so I’m unsure if I should only consider breeders who do. Alternatively, could I arrange for the puppy to be tested myself and potentially return the puppy if any major health issues arise?

Q3: One of the puppies we liked fell asleep in my arms for a long time but cried when she woke up and was quite keen to go back to the litter / mum. Could this indicate nervousness in her temperament, or is this normal ? I might be overthinking it! The puppy’s mother was incredibly sweet and kind, so I hope some of that personality is passed down to her pups.

Any guidance on these questions would be appreciated!

 

[JoanneF]

Hello, welcome and thank you for doing research before buying your puppy.

I can't answer your first question by I do have an acquaintance on another forum who is a poodle expert, although in standards rather than miniatures. If you don't get an answer here I can ask if she has any advice.

For your second question this page may be helpful Miniature Poodle Health

If tests were to be done on hips etc (that's actually not listed) it would be on the parent dogs, not the puppies so there's no value in you having the puppy tested. You don't mention patellar luxation, which is one of the conditions for which testing is recommended. However, if they haven't tested, you could ask whether there is any history of this in the lines.

Regarding the pup that cried to get back to the litter - I wouldn't worry too much about that, I think a lot of puppies would have done the same.

Good luck!

 

[Furdinand]

Thanks so much for your reply - that's really helpful and yes, makes a lot of sense. I'd definitely be grateful if you could ask the COI question if there are no further replies on here. Thanks again

 

[Hemlock]

If both parents are healthy (as in health-tested healthy) that level of inbreeding should not impact on the puppies' welfare.

 

[JoanneF]

My poodle friend says -

It's a really really complicated question, and I don't think the puppy buyer has enough information to make a decision based only on COI.

One important factor is how the COI is calculated. If you are calculating the COI based on pedigree alone, you'll get a different answer depending on whether you are running the numbers based on 5 generations, 10 generations, or more. (Of course, it also matters whether the pedigree is accurate. Based on the number of "purebred" merle poodles that sudden started appearing in the 1970s, I think there's a lot more pedigree falsification than breed clubs care to admit.) Some breeders are starting to use genetic COI instead of pedigree COI. A pedigree COI assumes that there is a consistent genetic inheritance over the generations. 1/2 from each parent, 1/4 from each grandparent, 1/8 from each great-grandparent, 1/16 from each great-great grandparent. In actuality, the ratios are a little more sloppy. Thus, the reported COI numbers can vary a bit depending on the method you use.

Any dog breed has a level of inbreeding humans don't expect to encounter outside royal families. Personally I would worry more about screenings for high frequency issues, like luxating patella or IVDD. I'd also look at temperament and socialization of both pups and parents. I'd already put down my deposit when I learned that my junior dog's mother had broken her jaw after getting it caught in a chain link fence. What kind of dog attempts to chew through a fence other than a dog that's prone to severe anxiety? It's not surprising the offspring of such an anxious dog has the reactivity issues I've mentioned on the forum plus some separation anxiety issues I haven't mentioned. (The separation anxiety is under control as long as he has the company of my senior dog.)

Dog Inbreeding, Its Consequences, And Its Quantification | Embark

For millenia, dog breeders have intentionally mated relatives as a way to fix traits in a lineage, recognizing that there is a reduction of fitness in offspring of close relatives. However, this certainly wasn’t always intentional as one can see from this post on the Hapsburg lip.

embarkvet.com

Let’s talk about COI and other estimates of inbreeding

COI, “coefficient of inbreeding,” is a very specific concept. We breeders have to pay attention to the definitions given by different people and companies.Pedigree based COI is a specific formula developed in 1922 by Sewell Wright, one of several prominent mathematically minded scientists who

www.betterbred.com

 

[LicensedBreeder]

It would intersted to know if these are licensed breeders you visited?