Help with Westie

[Poppypooch]

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Hi

I need some help, we have a female Westie who is nearly 3. We have had her since a puppy. She has always been extremely nervous and jumpy and sometimes bites us and my children even though we haven't done anything in the lead up to her biting. The kids are scared of her. For example she will just go for our feet under the table or we will change position on the sofa and she will go for us. She will come for a stroke and then suddenly bite.

We have had 3 different trainers and her walking is still not great. She pulls loads and hardly listens. She barks constantly at every little thing in the garden, at the window or on a walk. We can't take her anywhere to sit like a meal or a drink coz she barks at all the people and dogs.

I just don't know what more we can do, she can't be enjoying life being anxious and nervous all the time and we aren't enjoying having her around as her behaviour is just isn't manageable for us anymore. It's not how I imagined having a dog would be. I'm currently sat up with her now as she won't settle at night.

If anyone can help us I'd be very grateful!

Thanks in advance.

 

[JudyN]

A few questions:

1. Has she had a full vet check? As well as checking for anything that might cause her discomfort, ideally the vet would also check her bloods - thyroid levels can cause behavioural issues, and there may be other conditions that play a part.
2. What do you feed her? Please give both brand and variety.
3. What did the trainers suggest? Did you stick with their suggestions, and for how long?
4. What do you know of her background, before you got her? Very early experiences can have a profound effect.
5. Could you describe her normal day please? Feeding times, walks (on or off lead, how long for, whether there are usually other dogs around, how far...), times left on her own (Is she OK being left - does she settle down for a nap, or cry?), games/training...
6. How do you and the children react when she approaches - could she now be picking up on your anxiety before she actually does anything?

Sorry it's such a long list - the more we can picture everything that goes on in her life, the more clues it may give.

 

[Poppypooch]

Hi thanks for replying,

1. Yes she goes every 6 months and has had blood recently. No concerns from the vet.

2. We feed Wolfworthy she has 45g am and pm.

3. So the first trainers was just like a puppy class which was good and was fine until about 8 months old when all these problems started, the second trainer was good we had 1:1 sessions to help with on lead reactivity and off lead recall. They worked and she for the most part she is only reactive to certain dogs while on lead. We continued with this and still do what she suggested. However she has gone back to her old ways of pulling and being nervous although less reactivity than before. The trainer we currently has is good and has helped with general walking, sit stays but overall I feel it's not helping loads.

4. We got her around 10 weeks, she was part of family mum and dad both there but don't know much else.

5. We hand feed her in the morning and the evening usually when we go for a walk this was suggested by the trainers. She is quite food motivated and that helps. She isn't at home alone as my husband works from home. He tends to play tug and fetch with her at lunchtimes also. However she is fine if we go out doesn't cry. She has 30-60 min walk in the morning and the evening.. The evening walk always includes off lead time which she stays by our side and recalls well if she stops to sniff etc. She is dog neutral when off lead she doesn't want to play or say hello which is fine she passes them fine. She settles fine in her bed in the day and normally at night, sometimes she will cry though. We don't allow her in the lounge so she isn't barking at the window all day but when we do go in there she will bark at anything that passes which means we don't go in there much. Same for the garden once she starts barking she doesn't stop so I have to bring her in.

6. The children are scared and won't choose to sit with her and avoid her, if she does it to me I tell her no and move her of the sofa/out of the room etc.

Thank you for your help x

 

[JoanneF]

When she bites, do you think it's trying to engage you in play, or is it more like a 'driving you away' bite?

You said it comes out of nowhere but there will be something - maybe something barely noticeable - that precedes it. Is there anything at all you can think of?

 

[JudyN]

Hmmm, I can't really see any red flags there. I do wonder if your children's anxiety is having an effect on her, though obviously they wouldn't have become scared of her if she wasn't already showing these behaviours. And of course they can't stop being scared. Does she behave differently according to whether they are there or not?

My dog had similar issues on the sofa if we should move or want to get up. What worked for us was simply not to allow him on the sofa if we were on it, and to ask him to get off and go to his bed if we wanted to sit down. This worked well, to the point that if he was on his bed and heard us approaching the room, he'd get on the sofa just so he'd be rewarded for getting off!

When petting him, use something like the 5-second rule (wording stolen shamelessly from a post by JoanneF): Pet her for five seconds, then stop. Only continue if she asks for more by nudging you or similar, if she does that continue for another five seconds and stop again. Continue only for as long as she keeps asking. This will make her feel more comfortable because she knows she can make it stop if she wants to.

 

[Tinytom]

Has she been neutered ....some dogs donot like children they find them scary ...my lurcher mitzy disliked children and we had her from 6 weeks old ...

 

[Poppypooch]

When she bites, do you think it's trying to engage you in play, or is it more like a 'driving you away' bite?

You said it comes out of nowhere but there will be something - maybe something barely noticeable - that precedes it. Is there anything at all you can think of?

When she's on the sofa it's like a startled reaction like she might just be lying down and I'll move and she growls and goes for us. To me it's like she forgets where she is for moment. I think when the boys stroke her she jumps at them and she acts like she wants them too but then something changes and she bites. She can be like that with dogs... Sometimes on a rare occasion she meets another dog she will sniff and then suddenly change and tell the other dog off (not bite though just a telling off).

Hmmm, I can't really see any red flags there. I do wonder if your children's anxiety is having an effect on her, though obviously they wouldn't have become scared of her if she wasn't already showing these behaviours. And of course they can't stop being scared. Does she behave differently according to whether they are there or not?

My dog had similar issues on the sofa if we should move or want to get up. What worked for us was simply not to allow him on the sofa if we were on it, and to ask him to get off and go to his bed if we wanted to sit down. This worked well, to the point that if he was on his bed and heard us approaching the room, he'd get on the sofa just so he'd be rewarded for getting off!

When petting him, use something like the 5-second rule (wording stolen shamelessly from a post by JoanneF): Pet her for five seconds, then stop. Only continue if she asks for more by nudging you or similar, if she does that continue for another five seconds and stop again. Continue only for as long as she keeps asking. This will make her feel more comfortable because she knows she can make it stop if she wants to.

She is no different if they are there or not, they are older too so they know how to respect her space etc they don't hug her or wind her up or anything. I think I will try the sofa thing that's a good idea and definitely will get all of us to us the 5 second rule. That's really helpful.

Has she been neutered ....some dogs donot like children they find them scary ...my lurcher mitzy disliked children and we had her from 6 weeks old ...

Yes she has been neutered, she does like them in the sense she will go to them when they come down and jump up for strokes which makes it harder now to know what is best.

Would more training help like with a different trainer? Maybe more specialised in nervous dogs? Maybe I should try the vet again? I have read lots and attended so much training to try and understand her.. I feel like I could be a dog trainer.

 

[Tinytom]

Did you actually see her with mum when she was a pup ...she almost sounds like a puppy farm dog ....

 

[Poppypooch]

Did you actually see her with mum when she was a pup ...she almost sounds like a puppy farm dog ....

Yep saw them all with mum in the family home. There was her and her 2 brothers mum and dad there.

 

[JoanneF]

Yep saw them all with mum in the family home. There was her and her 2 brothers mum and dad there.

Was mum definitely the mum? Interacting with the puppies, enlarged teats etc?

Anyway,

Would more training help like with a different trainer?

Perhaps a behaviourist might be able to add more value and since there's kids at risk I'd really recommend that. However, it is an unregulated industry, my 90 year old neighbour who has never owned a dog could set herself up in business if she wanted, so if you find someone and you would like us to look at their website for red flags, we'd be happy to. You may find your insurance covers this.

Meantime, a couple of things come to mind. First, don't startle her as that seems to have been a trigger. Second, learn to read more subtle body language that may indicate she is uncomfortable. Things like yawning, lip licking, wide eyes are all early indicators. Sophia Yin is a good source to look up.

And you might want to invest in baby gates to keep her separate from the children to give everyone some peace of mind.

 

[excuseme]

Food can contribute to behavioural and temperament issues but your choice of brand (that I have never heard of before) appears to be a nice "Grain" FREE product and carefully thought about .
It is reported that raw diets can help with some temperament issues and help settle some doggie issues.
Maybe an actual Raw diet may help her, all kibbles are processed which alters the benefits of the raw ingredients.
Was she neutered as a puppy or was she left a little longer to allow her body, hormones and mental states to have matured properly. Did she have any issues at the time when she was spayed.
It is mentioned that spaying while still very young can "fix" a problem rather than solve it!

This is a lovely site with many having knowledge, experience and suggestions that can help others. I hope you find a helpful result.

 

[excuseme]

JoanneF has mentioned exactly what I was thinking.

Was this a setup to sell the puppies, was the female actually the mother and did you notice the puppies (even at 10 weeks of age) interacting with their mother and maybe still looking and checking for a quick suckle. Just because there was a boy dog there may not mean that he was the father!! but just a selected dog that tolerated puppies of any age very well.
Loads of negative thoughts here that will not help solve your problem.

 

[JudyN]

How old are your children? And when she bites, does she draw blood, leave red marks, or what?

Sometimes you can beat your head to a pulp trying to work out why your pet is the way they are. But often, you're never going to find the answer, and the most successful approach is to avoid the situations arising as far as possible - hence the 'no sofa sharing' rule. BTW, teach this as a fun trick - encourage her to go on the sofa, then to jump off, and reward the jumping off (maybe pairing with her going to her bed). Jumping off the sofa is such a clever, fun thing to do! The time to work on this isn't when she's already snuggled down, sleepy and cosy (in which case calling for her in a happy voice while opening and closing the fridge door can do the trick )

For the children, maybe when she goes to them for strokes they could give her a quick pet, then move away from her, so there's no stress for her. And if she doesn't have a 'safe space', where no one will approach her and maybe she can be away from the hubbub of family life, then introduce one - this could be a crate in an out-of-the-way part of the house, though don't close the door if she's not crate trained. The calmer she can feel, the less likely she is to suddenly react without apparent warning. And with this in mind, it might be worth asking youur vet about introducing a calming supplement - I'm thinking of something like scullcap and valerian which shouldn't have any sedative effect. Adaptil sprays/collars/diffusers may also help.

You could try another behaviourist, but this isn't really about training. 'Training' her to not go for the children is unlikely to be successful, and it won't address the emotions that underly the behaviour - in fact it would add more stress as she'd feel the emotions that made her do this, but also make her anxious about reacting. It's the emotions underlying the behaviour that you really want to change.

I'm aware you've asked about barking/reactivity outside the house and walking on lead, but it's probably best not to try to work on too many issues at once. One thing I do wonder though, is whether you could block her view out of the window - or is she barking at outside sounds rather than what she can see?

 

[Hemlock]

Great advice from others. I would just add that next time you are at the vet, get her hearing and eyesight checked, as lack of either might contribute to the 'startle'.