How To Combat Bad Behaviour In 2.5Yr Old Litter Sisters?????

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Hi we have two 2.5yr old black labrador litter sisters, had them since they were 12 weeks old. We were truck drivers together so they were both with us 24/7. We did training with them etc and up to a certain point they are very well behaved - exceptional if they are seperate.

We have changed our job, now live in a house not a truck so obviously their life has changed drastically and their access to us is not as unlimited as it once was.

I fully understand all the issues going on here and why they are mis-behaving - attention / seperation etc etc BUT at the moment my biggest problem is that they have inverted to each other - when I take them out together they are tending to ignore me and my commands and just interact together. I take them out seperately and do one on one training - in which they are great - put them back together and they are deaf again - how do I start to combat this problem?

Secondly as we now live in a house, they have a covered outside run to dry off in before coming in the house - again I understand all the issues why they are doing this, but they cry and cry. It is so constant that I cant get to the stage of rewarding them for being quiet, which in turn results in them thinking im going out because they are crying.

Any advice on any of this would be greatly accepted, thanks

 

[eingana]

What you are experiencing with them ignoring you and listening to each other is one of the reasons that many training classes just won't take littermate dogs. They are the constants in each other's life and they are doing the doggy equivalent of developing a unique twin language that nobody else understands. This means that the effects you can have as an owner are reduced because they provide each other's emotional security and are likely to be resilient to all sorts of requests and commands that you may make. This can make them very hard to train, 'selectively' deaf when it comes to anything that isn't what they want to do and make both together go further with naughtiness or disobendience than either would be with you when they are alone.

To be honest, the bad behaviour when out in a group can affect all sorts of family groups whether actually related or not, but it's an awful lot worse with littermates. I also work in rescue with a breed where we would specifically advise people against getting 2 young bitches of the same age together, whether they are related or not, because of the dominance issues and fights that often result. In GSDs the issues are frequently severe enough that one dog has to be rehomed to prevent further bloodshed, so we never advise getting 2 young bitches of a similar age. If you have to have 2 young dogs together make it a mixed gender pair, and you're still likely to get dogs that listen to each other more than the owner, but with a bit of luck they won't shred each other to the point that you need to rehome one.

On this one I think you really could do with working out which one is driving the behaviour to address it, and to do that you need to be observed by someone like a behaviourist to watch you interacting with the dogs. Once you know who is driving the behaviour you can then hopefully change the fundamentals of your relationship to just tip things back into your favour a bit.

As for the crying whilst outside and drying off, I think the answer to this is going to come down to starting right at basics as you would for any separation anxiety. Work upwards from 1 minute very slowly, with treats and fuss when you come back if there's no noise.

Do you go back to them when they cry at the moment? If you do then even if you're waiting for ages to go back to them what you're teaching them is that if they cry for long enough, it will get them what they want (i.e. some attention and to get out of the run). If you're going to train them out of this you will at some point have to leave them to whine, but you can work up from a very short time which means that you can delay the start of the whining.

 

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Hi thanks for the reply - their relationship is a bit funny, they have always been the same and obviously the change in our circumstance means its now an issue. They are joined at the hip and get an like a house on fire, they both compensate for each other and have their own dominant areas so its not clean cut as to one being dominant over the other - it depends on the locations and situation.

Generally dog A is the go getter, more confident and dog B relys on her for things BUT dog B is passively confident and dominant and knows exactly how to get her way. When off from me it is always dog B who ignores me, its dog A I call back as dog B will always follow her but dog A doesnt always come - theres the problems right there ha I dont want to rely on dog A to get dog B plus they should both come back when told.

We have always done seperate training and they are great one on one, now we have the field out back of the house I am starting to train them seperately but in each others company, one on a line so I have control but any other tips would be great.

the barking - well I left them the other day while I was in the house and timed it , dog A in particular cried for 3 hours straight without a break, absolutley no chance to jump out at them in a quiet second for praise and fuss. Dog A is definatly the baby of the two and whilst very intelligent her mentallity is still stuck at 12 weeks old and wanting her dad who she beyond adores and no doubt that is half the problem here - if shes with her dad shes happy in the world!

I completely understand about not going back until they are quiet and why - but at what point do you let them get and stay distressed???? At the moment it has been the fact we went to them after a considerable time, got them quiet and left, never go into the run or let them out or give biscuits - not ideal as they got us when crying!

My husband started a new tactic yesterday that, tentatively, worked although prob not approved by you - the run has an open section, a covered section then a kennel. when they had cried for 5mins, from inside the house so they couldnt see us he told them to go to bed, they went in to the kennel and the crying stopped - then we had the opening to go and reward after a few minutes of silence, left them in there and started the process over. They were quieter for longer before crying and after being told to go to bed. Luckily from 12 weeks we made a kennel a special great place for them to go so that part has never been an issue.

We also tried this in thier indoor kennel room when we want 5 mins away from them so to speak, this also seemed to work. Having had them since 12 weeks and knowing them, their personallities and character I think alot of it is insecurities of having us 24/7 until 2 months ago and now their time is slightly more controlled which goes back to the seperation anxiety you mentioned, so maybe this tactic that they know we are still there and they are safe is why this method seemed to work yesterday, I will keep you posted.

Any other suggestions or opinions would be great thanks

 

[banana]

Hello and welcome to pet Forum - I would love to see a picture of your doggies!

Have you tried some sort of calming diffusers or drops?

 

[Reco]

Hiya, we have tried the kongs and other attention devices but these are discarded in less than 5 mins, tried all sorts of tasty, smelly treats inside but they arent exactly food orientated.

Due to the life we led before with them I know we made a rod for our own back - they are humanised rather than dog and think we are their pack and should be with them all the time as we used to be.

as I mentioned yetserday with our tactics for the crying - it continued to work yesterday and has still been working into today so fingers crossed this may be the path for us.

 

[banana]

Maybe you could try something like a calming diffuser:

www.petremedy.co.uk

 

[eingana]

What is normally advised with the separation anxiety is to start with the dog in another room but without you leaving the house, and if they get really anxious you rattle the door handle or similar so that they get the reassurance that they aren't being left but without you feeding their belief that you will come when they cry.

On that basis your solution doesn't sound so far from the advice, does it?

Whatever works for you.....

 

[Reco]

yea our attempts seem to pretty much mimic what you have said so thats a plus

Its still seems to be working so we will presevere