Is this territorial marking?

[Paulak]

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hello there. I have 2 rough collier males aged 27 months and 23 months. I have bought countless beds but the elder one always pees over the bed. He also does it on rugs to the point where I currently have bare wood floors. I bought an expensive sheepskin rug which he has totally ruined. The younger one did occasionally use his bed and I know if I was to get him another he would use it but the elder will pee over it! Any ideas how to stop thiis my couch is ruined because they both constantly use this instead of beds

 

[Kara 1]

Hello ...are they both neutered and have you ruled out a urine infection

 

[DixD]

I wondered about an infection though the vet said, years ago, wen our pup had one it was more unusual in males And I would imagine quite a coincidence in two.

Did you obtain them as pups at different times, or as a pair of different ages. History can sometimes help in working out possible causes!

I’d imagine, but it may not be, that dogs would be inclined to mark up against things to mark territory. The higher the better, hence leg cocking as dogs mature. If our dog puppy widdles when he is out, we know his back is bothering him a little.

Sounds almost like a toilet training issue gone wonky along the way too, associating soft coverings with toileting.

 

[Paulak]

Hello ...are they both neutered and have you ruled out a urine infection

Yes both neutered. We

Hello ...are they both neutered and have you ruled out a urine infection

yes he is neutered. I did mentioned to vet when he was about 8 months he said he's marking his territory and will grow out it

 

[Paulak]

I wondered about an infection though the vet said, years ago, wen our pup had one it was more unusual in males And I would imagine quite a coincidence in two.

Did you obtain them as pups at different times, or as a pair of different ages. History can sometimes help in working out possible causes!

I’d imagine, but it may not be, that dogs would be inclined to mark up against things to mark territory. The higher the better, hence leg cocking as dogs mature. If our dog puppy widdles when he is out, we know his back is bothering him a little.

Sounds almost like a toilet training issue gone wonky along the way too, associating soft coverings with toileting.

Yes there is 4 months between them both came as young pups. A lot of dominance issues and jealousy. If I had time over I would leave a lot more time between getting them

 

[JoanneF]

I did mentioned to vet when he was about 8 months

That was quite a while ago - I agree a sample of urine to the vet would rule out an infection then back to basics with training. Did you ever use puppy pads?

 

[Paulak]

That was quite a while ago - I agree a sample of urine to the vet would rule out an infection then back to basics with training. Did you ever use puppy pads?

Yes puppy pads used and he did well with his training. He tells us whe he wants to be out even to the point of waking us during the night. It is as if he does it out of spite.

 

[JoanneF]

Ok, first dogs don't do spite - their brains just dont work like that. Second, puppy pads have likely taught him that indoor toileting is allowed - they have their place for dogs who really cannot go outside but for puppies they give confusing mixed messages. So - vet this week to make sure it is behavioural and not medical then back to basics with toilet training. And probably with each dog separately.

Toilet training happens when two things come together - the ABILITY to hold the toilet, along with the DESIRE to hold it in order to earn the reward for doing so. So set him up to succeed by taking him out even more than he needs; for example every hour and always after sleeping, eating, playing. When he toilets outdoors make a huge fuss (never mind the neighbours, act like outdoor toileting is the best thing you have ever seen) and reward him with a high value treat. Do that immediately, don't make him come to you for the treat so he is clear that it's for toileting and not for coming to you. The idea is that he eventually wants to earn the treat enough to hold the toilet until he is outside - provided he is physically able to control his toileting obviously. As he is actually performing the toilet you can introduce words he can associate with it (like 'do weewee' and 'busy busy') that later when he is reliably trained you can use these to tell him when you want him to toilet. If you take him out and he doesn't toilet after five minutes, bring him in but don't take your eyes off him. Any hint of a toilet inside, scoop him up and get him out fast. If he doesn't try to toilet indoors (great!) take him out a second time and repeat until you do get outside toilets. You need the outside toilet to happen SO that you can reward SO that he learns. If he has an accident inside don't react at all. If you get annoyed he may learn to fear your reaction and avoid you if he needs to toilet - the opposite of what you want. Dogs cant make the distinction between you being annoyed at him TOILETING, as opposed to toileting INDOORS. Take a rolled up newspaper and hit yourself over the head for not having taken him outside in time. Not when he is there though in case you scare him. Then clean the area with an enzymatic cleaner to remove any trace of smell that might attract him back to the spot. Leave the cleaner down for 10 minutes to let the enzymes work.

 

[DixD]

Yes there is 4 months between them both came as young pups. A lot of dominance issues and jealousy. If I had time over I would leave a lot more time between getting them

What kind of issues were you seeing? How do the dogs relate to each other, and to you? It sounds an interesting and complex scenario...

 

[Paulak]

What kind of issues were you seeing? How do the dogs relate to each other, and to you? It sounds an interesting and complex scenario...

We have to feed the elder Bobby in another room he refuses to eat in same room as Bailey.
If Bailey comes up for a cuddle he'll push him out way or try wrapping his front legs round Baileys back and pull him off.
If Bailey does something wrong Bobby quick to bark and tell tales!
He's now started back answering us if we tell him off too.
Yet he's very loving too. If my husband and Itake them out together he wants to be behind Bailey and I can't cross a road or anything unless Bailey there too. Bailey looks back constantly too see he's behind and will stop if Bobby having a sniff about. They were kennelled when we went away and they said stuck together like glue.
Bobby also has fits which are becoming more frequent again vet just said to keep an eye on him. They did blood tests but nothing came up.

 

[Paulak]

Ok, first dogs don't do spite - their brains just dont work like that. Second, puppy pads have likely taught him that indoor toileting is allowed - they have their place for dogs who really cannot go outside but for puppies they give confusing mixed messages. So - vet this week to make sure it is behavioural and not medical then back to basics with toilet training. And probably with each dog separately.

Toilet training happens when two things come together - the ABILITY to hold the toilet, along with the DESIRE to hold it in order to earn the reward for doing so. So set him up to succeed by taking him out even more than he needs; for example every hour and always after sleeping, eating, playing. When he toilets outdoors make a huge fuss (never mind the neighbours, act like outdoor toileting is the best thing you have ever seen) and reward him with a high value treat. Do that immediately, don't make him come to you for the treat so he is clear that it's for toileting and not for coming to you. The idea is that he eventually wants to earn the treat enough to hold the toilet until he is outside - provided he is physically able to control his toileting obviously. As he is actually performing the toilet you can introduce words he can associate with it (like 'do weewee' and 'busy busy') that later when he is reliably trained you can use these to tell him when you want him to toilet. If you take him out and he doesn't toilet after five minutes, bring him in but don't take your eyes off him. Any hint of a toilet inside, scoop him up and get him out fast. If he doesn't try to toilet indoors (great!) take him out a second time and repeat until you do get outside toilets. You need the outside toilet to happen SO that you can reward SO that he learns. If he has an accident inside don't react at all. If you get annoyed he may learn to fear your reaction and avoid you if he needs to toilet - the opposite of what you want. Dogs cant make the distinction between you being annoyed at him TOILETING, as opposed to toileting INDOORS. Take a rolled up newspaper and hit yourself over the head for not having taken him outside in time. Not when he is there though in case you scare him. Then clean the area with an enzymatic cleaner to remove any trace of smell that might attract him back to the spot. Leave the cleaner down for 10 minutes to let the enzymes work.

They both get treats when they toilet outside its been the norm since day 1 to the point where the younger will go out and cock his leg just cost he knows he will get a treat. Bobby asks to be out he knows he has to toilet outside he scratches at the door and barks.

 

[Paulak]

Ok, first dogs don't do spite - their brains just dont work like that. Second, puppy pads have likely taught him that indoor toileting is allowed - they have their place for dogs who really cannot go outside but for puppies they give confusing mixed messages. So - vet this week to make sure it is behavioural and not medical then back to basics with toilet training. And probably with each dog separately.

Toilet training happens when two things come together - the ABILITY to hold the toilet, along with the DESIRE to hold it in order to earn the reward for doing so. So set him up to succeed by taking him out even more than he needs; for example every hour and always after sleeping, eating, playing. When he toilets outdoors make a huge fuss (never mind the neighbours, act like outdoor toileting is the best thing you have ever seen) and reward him with a high value treat. Do that immediately, don't make him come to you for the treat so he is clear that it's for toileting and not for coming to you. The idea is that he eventually wants to earn the treat enough to hold the toilet until he is outside - provided he is physically able to control his toileting obviously. As he is actually performing the toilet you can introduce words he can associate with it (like 'do weewee' and 'busy busy') that later when he is reliably trained you can use these to tell him when you want him to toilet. If you take him out and he doesn't toilet after five minutes, bring him in but don't take your eyes off him. Any hint of a toilet inside, scoop him up and get him out fast. If he doesn't try to toilet indoors (great!) take him out a second time and repeat until you do get outside toilets. You need the outside toilet to happen SO that you can reward SO that he learns. If he has an accident inside don't react at all. If you get annoyed he may learn to fear your reaction and avoid you if he needs to toilet - the opposite of what you want. Dogs cant make the distinction between you being annoyed at him TOILETING, as opposed to toileting INDOORS. Take a rolled up newspaper and hit yourself over the head for not having taken him outside in time. Not when he is there though in case you scare him. Then clean the area with an enzymatic cleaner to remove any trace of smell that might attract him back to the spot. Leave the cleaner down for 10 minutes to let the enzymes work.

This is my fifth collie and each and everyone fully toilet trained in same manner as you suggest in your post yet never have I had an issue like this

 

[DixD]

It sounds a strange mix of behaviours. I’d have thought, if Bobby was lording it over Bailey, he’d be eating both dinners. It sounds more that he doesn’t feel comfortable eating in front of Bailey, a bit intimidated. And more like he is following Baikey’s lead, ie., the sniffing. There seems to be quite a lot of anxiety mixed in there too, which could cause the barking, a sort of displacement behaviour. And urination can be a sign of anxiety too, as well as a marking behaviour, as can mounting. I wonder if maybe, too, with dogs’ abilities to sense upcoming epileptic seizures in humans, the fitting is playing a part too, the unpredictable energies for both dogs.

Wrong turnings in training can come down to individual dogs. I mentioned, in a previous post, how, when training my small dog on agility contacts, I inadvertently taught him to stop, at the bottom of the A-frame, when his front feet landed on artificial grass, where the A-frame ended. I found this out, when I put a jump in its place, and he stopped as soon as he landed on the artificial grass, and refused to move until I said “Go!”. So, the soft surface/urination connection coukd have been made accidentally. I’m not sure if a dog would also mark something for security reasons, eg., smells like “me” rather than for territorial reasons. Maybe one of the other posters knows.

Anyway, just some thoughts, but you’re on the scene and seeing day to day behaviour.