Obedience Issues

[Anastasiia M]

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I have a litter of puppies with different personalities. One of the female pups is proving to be quite a challenge when it comes to obedience. During our obedience classes where all owners let their dogs off-leash, I can't do the same. She starts attacking other dogs. The prong collar doesn't seem to work, and it's tough to control her on the leash. She (Boerboel, it’s African mastiff) weighs 60-70 kg and is almost a year old. Any advice on how to train her to be more obedient? I have four other dogs from the same litter, and they don't pose such a problem

 

[JoanneF]

The first thing would be to get rid of the prong collar. If she associates the class with the discomfort / pain from the prongs, it's not going to help.

In terms of obedience in general, I think there are three main reasons why dogs don't do as we ask. The first is they don't understand what we want, so that's where training comes in. The second is that the desire or motivation to do what we want isn't as great as the desire or motivation to do what they are already doing. So you need to increase the reward, while looking also at the environment and conditions (normally I'd be pretty compliant if chocolate was on offer but if the house is on fire, chocolate is not going to cut it, if that makes sense). The third reason is that sometimes you are working against a deeply rooted breed trait. There's a reason why we don't use terriers to herd sheep.

Specifically regarding your dog, we probably need a lot more information to be helpful. It could be that she is over threshold, over-stimulated. How are the other dogs in the class behaving? What's her body language like during the rest of the class? Does she attack immediately or is there a build up? Does she pick on any other dog, or the closest dog, or is there a pattern? Has this started happening recently or has she always been reactive to other dogs? What's she like with other dogs outside of class?

Importantly, what is the class trainer doing or suggesting?

 

[Anastasiia M]

The first thing would be to get rid of the prong collar. If she associates the class with the discomfort / pain from the prongs, it's not going to help.

In terms of obedience in general, I think there are three main reasons why dogs don't do as we ask. The first is they don't understand what we want, so that's where training comes in. The second is that the desire or motivation to do what we want isn't as great as the desire or motivation to do what they are already doing. So you need to increase the reward, while looking also at the environment and conditions (normally I'd be pretty compliant if chocolate was on offer but if the house is on fire, chocolate is not going to cut it, if that makes sense). The third reason is that sometimes you are working against a deeply rooted breed trait. There's a reason why we don't use terriers to herd sheep.

Specifically regarding your dog, we probably need a lot more information to be helpful. It could be that she is over threshold, over-stimulated. How are the other dogs in the class behaving? What's her body language like during the rest of the class? Does she attack immediately or is there a build up? Does she pick on any other dog, or the closest dog, or is there a pattern? Has this started happening recently or has she always been reactive to other dogs? What's she like with other dogs outside of class?

Importantly, what is the class trainer doing or suggesting?

Wow, thanks for the thoughtful advice! Taking off the prong collar seems like a good first step. Your insights on why dogs might not listen totally make sense, especially the part about breed tendencies. Our trainer insists on using a muzzle and prong collar because there's a mix of breeds in our class, and things got pretty rough once. Sometimes there are 40-50 dogs in our classes. We've been visiting those training lessons twice a week since August, and I'm seeing improvements with all the pups, except Amelia. She is good at home, she follows commands well, but her fear and aggression towards other dogs really worry me. The trainer's trick is to not tighten the leash when another dog comes close and just walk away if things get intense. Do you think this tactic is the way to go?

By the way, the training class situation is quite tense, with all those dogs of different breeds running around. There was this really bad incident where a Cane Corso hurt a Labrador's eye. So our trainer's taking extra precautions like using muzzle and prong collar. Thanks for your help!

 

[JudyN]

Your starting point shouldn't be with the aim of making her more obedient, but making her comfortable in the situation she is in, so she doesn't need to hold herself back. If she anxious of other dogs, then a prong collar, or other punitive form of control, will add to that anxiety... and even if she doesn't attack, that stress will take its toll, and she may eventually be so overwhelmed she will EXPLODE without warning.

Prong collars are rarely seen in the UK - last year I saw a young dog being walked with on, and could see the dog was incredibly anxious and skittish. Each time she moved out of line, the owner yanked her back towards him. No doubt he wanted her to walk calmly by his side, but what he presumably didn't see was that it was the collar that was making that impossible for her to do.

I would ditch the collar... and ditch that particular training class. Look for one that is rewards-based only. Have a read of this article on dog reactivity, too: Dog Reactivity

 

[JoanneF]

I'd agree with Judy, look for another class.

40 to 50 dogs in a class that you describe as tense isn't likely to be an environment that's conducive to learning anything. And if the trainer needs people to use prong collars and muzzles, they don't have control. And if they don't have control of the class, why are they letting dogs run free?

I don't know if you studied Maslow's hierarchy of needs in school but basically it says that we can't fulfill our higher level needs like learning if our basic needs of things like safety haven't been met - I can say with some confidence that you are wasting your money at that class because your dog won't be able to focus on learning.

I'd look for a small class of maybe six to eight dogs - or maybe even some one to one training. At the very least, give your dog a few quiet days to let the stress hormone cortisol clear from her system.

Where about are you? I'm guessing you aren't in the UK but maybe we can help you find a class.

 

[Anastasiia M]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I totally get what you mean about making Amelia comfortable first. Thing is, where I live (Poland), it's pretty common to use muzzles and prong collars for training, with trainers emphasizing their importance. While we stick to regular collars and short leashes mostly in the city, the training methods we've come across tend to be more on the dominant side, almost like what you'd see in the military or police training.

I hardly ever put a muzzle or prong collar on Amelia during our normal walks in the city. There was this one incident in the forest where she nipped someone, that guy called for a police, and they did warn me to be extra cautious. Luckily, no fine, but she did manage to slip out of her leash that time, and she wasn't even wearing a prong collar.

Let me clarify that the off-leash segment is only a part of the training session, which usually lasts around two hours. During this time, the dogs are let off-leash around 3-4 times as a form of 'reward' for following commands and to encourage dogs socialization.

 

[Anastasiia M]

Just to clarify, the prong collar we use isn't the kind that chokes the dog continuously. It's actually fitted in a way that leaves plenty of room around the neck. The most popular ones here in Poland are the semi-choke prong collars that owners put on their dogs by sliding them over the head. When worn, the prongs hang around the dog's neck much like a regular collar. Similarly, the muzzle is designed to allow the dog to breathe comfortably as it is custom-fitted. The prongs themselves aren't sharp, but they do provide a firm deterrent when the dog tries to pull away.

 

[JudyN]

Even the police and military use positive reinforcement training now, at least in the UK and the US - it's a myth that 'powerful, aggressive, dominant' dogs need to have similarly aggressive, 'dominant' training methods.

Muzzles as a precaution are fine - my dog wore one on all his walks just in case an unexpected situation arose (e.g. child appearing around the corner and tried to pet him before I could react), and was more than happy to wear it. But if the need is to control a powerful dog, then a well-fitting harness with a chest attachment, would be a less punitive but still effective option. Imagine if you were a child being walked on a prong collar to stop you running off...

Dogs don't actually need socialisation that involves mixing freely with other dogs - that can as easily create bullies (and victims) as happy playmates. The aim of socialisation is to make dogs comfortable round other dogs, and many dogs want nothing more than to greet another dog politely and walk on, or simply to ignore other dogs.

 

[JoanneF]

it's a myth that 'powerful, aggressive, dominant' dogs need to have similarly aggressive, 'dominant' training methods

And to reinforce that, have a look at the video clip at the end of this thread -

Training with a clicker

 

[Anastasiia M]

What about my dogs, Boerboel, they are very protective and sometimes do not take too well to strangers. Socialization is crucial for Boerboels. This will limit their aggressiveness brought about by their strong watchdog instincts. Owners should always supervise them if strangers are present.


As you said, „many dogs want nothing more than to greet another dog politely and walk on”. One of my dogs, Ana, whenever I let her off a leash, she doesn’t run or rush at other dogs, she stays next to me. Alex, just playing with other dogs. Bella (the mother of these dogs) has been trained, she is already 6 years old and she behaves perfectly, walks near my left leg and does not attack until I give her a command.


Boerboel can be a dog that never meets other dogs or people, the word boerboel is translated as “farm dog”. This dog becomes super aggressive and won't let anyone come near . But there is a second way out: don’t make a monster out of dog, just let him get to know others as a puppy, which is what I do.

 

[JoanneF]

don’t make a monster out of dog, just let him get to know others as a puppy, which is what I do.

I don't see it quite the same way. If your dog, by instinct, is aloof and not going to be a social butterfly; by making her participate in huge classes twice a week, with the added issue of a prong, is adding to her stress and just reinforcing her perception that crowds of dogs are not where she wants to be. It's possible in fact that the classes have contributed to cause her behaviour.

Think of it like this - if you didn't like people, being forced to go to a big noisy party twice a week, every week, would be horrible, wouldn't it.

Please read the link Judy added earlier about reactivity. There's a lot you can do with her without going to classes, particularly classes like the one you describe.

And, you should probably do a bit of research into littermate syndrome too.

 

[Flobo]

Can't add anything more constructive than has already been said...

if you didn't like people, being forced to go to a big noisy party twice a week, every week, would be horrible, wouldn't it.

This for me really sums it up, although your other dogs have managed well at the training sessions, it is quite obviously not a good environment for Amelia and she is finding it incredibly stressful. Dogs are as individual as people are and what suits one could be hell to another... one size does most definitely not fit all!

 

[Anastasiia M]

Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts. I'll definitely take your point about the classes and Amelia's stress into consideration. Judy's link on dealing with reactivity sounds like a good read, and I'm eager to explore alternative training methods that suit her better.

I've actually seen that littermate syndrome in action myself. Sometimes, when Amelia gets all anngry and shows aggression to a new dog, her sister for example, Ana, sees this and tries to protect Amelia. It's a bit of a juggle, but I'm trying my best to find the right way through