Obsessin' with children...

[JessandJackson]

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Evening all! I couldn't locate a thread on something like this (unless someone can point me in the right direct) so I wanted to ask around but nonetheless, everyone's story is different.

We are nearly a month into having Jackson (our 7 month old now, Battersea baby - 1/2 EBT 1/2 Lurcher). Good as gold as 7 month 18kg dogs come (I don't see a lot around, just the cute mini pups that are obviously are a lot easier to handle).

We soon picked up (I think the Battersea story was that he was with a family with kids and they just didn't have the time to sort manners and training out so he thought kids were just a game) that he was a little bit obsessive (or over friendly / too much) with kids. Given the fact that he is lab size now (a lot skinnier) he can easily bowl a 5-10 year old over.

I haven't yet gone down the "behaviourist" route as I feel at 6 months, behaviours and manners are all a work in progress... I can understand if he was 1 year and 6 months and still doing this but this is early days. I spent hours googling puppy training near me but trainers were reluctant to have him on the courses as they said he is very junior - and too, given his size. So I came across DogsTrust. They are a charity and specialise in rescue dog training. They will take on any dog any age. They offered me a 6 week course for 60 quid... dirt cheap. But first they have given me a lot of material to read (and to be honest I have read most of it on the net) about how to mentally stimulate him (to which I do 80% of the time) and how to not reward such behaviours - he's fine with that - he knows when he's being naughty but I can't particularly turn my back on him and fold my arms when he is going 20 mph at a child. Back to the Dogs Trust - she said read up read up etc etc and then touch base with them in the New Year and if no luck then we will do the course... but she did advise to actually KEEP HIM AWAY from kids (or at one end of the park per say). She said it is natural to want to expose them to situations they don't handle politely but until they can start to become grounded as dogs, then esph will the bull breeds, not to put them in situations they don't know how to behave within.

Whilst my O/H and I have been at work I have had a dog walker / trainer who does 121's with him, every day for an hour. He is a gem with other dogs. I can't fault him there. Anyway... I am distressing. I shall give you a couple of scenarios that occurred today over @ Bushy Park:

Example 1: Mum, Dad and x 2 kids approx. 12 years old and a dog with a frisbie – I was eyesight distance away and so I put the lead on. He pulled a lot – wanted to have a go with the frisbie and kids and it got me down looking at their puppy and how well behaved he played with them all. I stopped him to sit him and calm him – I even attempted to distract him with treats but he’d eat them and just look straight through me over to all the noise

Example 2: Tiny 3 year old on her scooter and Dad pushing the push-chair… bless her; even asked me to stroke the dog. I told her Dad no because she is right infront of his face – she was that small… but she went on in and stroked him – he did lick her and she giggled and with that, he bit onto her coat and so she found that even more funny so that excited him. I had to, at that point, pull him away and with that, Dad finally said no to her / leave the dog – Jackson was barking away and just wanted to get at her.

Example 3: ^ bounce back to example 1 – I ended up bumping into all of them later on the walk. It’s hard as I don’t want to avoid situations. Again, the kids asked to stroke the dog – he was fine with the girl as she was about 4 ½ foot and confident in stroking him. The boy was a tad smaller and a bit squeaky – I think when kids hold the hand up in the air as they aren’t sure when the right time is to stroke him that = the problem as he wants to jump up at the hand and with that, the kids get startled: this boy did he went to run off and Jackson just grabbed his coat and knocked him over – it was a split second. Thankfully parents were fine with it and told the boy to stop being a wimp! I pulled him away from the situation near a tree (literally had to drag him but his harness) and told him no and that he is going home now as he has been naughty.

Example 4: A group of rowdy school kids. I couldn’t really get out of that one as they were all calling him over and my voice was background noise. Then they started winding him up; running circles around him and I ran over and told them to stop it as he started to jump. Again got a boy by the coat and once I grab him he let go. I told the lads off I said you shouldn’t wind dogs up because one day someone could have a dog off the lead without a brain and then you will get bitten.

So I left Bushy Park a tad of a disgruntled Mum today.

We got home – he knew even at home he wasn’t the best; I could tell in his mannerisms towards me. so the fact he knows what he is doing is wrong is great – I think he is crying out to know how to fix it with me??? if that makes any sense.
sorry for the long spew
REALLY WELCOME FEEDBACK, SITUATION SHARING AND THE BEST WAY TO GO ABOUT THESE THINGS. I am trying so hard here I don't want to give up on him and keep him away from kids altogether because one day we will have kids!

 

[Caro Perry]

I'd follow the Dogs Trust advice - I have a dog who is over friendly with other dogs so I've been there to a certain extent.

You are in control here. In scenario 2 for example I would have not allowed any interaction with the children . Just taken my dog and walked on. It's nice to stop and chat but you need to avoid situations where he can misbehave like that. I know you don't want to appear rude but getting your dog trained has to be the priority at the moment.

 

[JudyN]

First up - he doesn't know he's been 'naughty', he just knows that you're being 'odd' with him. Punishment after the event is rarely, if ever, effective, and he probably has idea that it was linked to him playing with 'human puppies' in a way that was completely appropriate in his mind.

Adolescent lurchers can be wild and almost uncontrollable and at times truly horrible!! It's normal for them, so please don't compare Jackson with other pups. Been there, done that, it's like comparing a tiger with a domestic pussy cat!

I would treat this in a similar way to dogs who make a beeline for other dogs and want to play with them all regardless. Keep your distance from children, and put him on lead before he takes off after them. And work on recall, focus on you, etc., to give you more chance of getting him back to you (don't expect too much while he's going through adolescence). I think allowing interactions with other children while he's on lead is fine, if he can manage a calm interaction (maybe in a sit?) and if you can persuade the child that the moment he gets excited or grabs, the child should turn and walk away. Don't let children give him treats - if he's been calm you can give him a treat.

 

[Ari_RR]

My 2 cents (Sorry!!) - this is a perfectly normal large size baby dog, full of energy and curiosity, doing what feels good, g-d bless him.

Agree with Judy - telling him off after the fact, or being “odd” with him later at home - won’t yield the results you are looking for. It’s not dissimilar to punishing the dog who ran away after he came back. He will most likely associate the punishment with the action of coming back, which is the opposite of what you’d want.

So, IMHO at this stage of the game avoidance is probably the best approach. Take him to places where there are no wild kids to chase, or if there are wild kids everywhere - take him there at times when they are asleep or just not there.

Putting him in a “sit” and trying to distract with treats - not great to me in this case. Treats at this stage won’t measure up to wild kids, so him sitting there staring at the kids just builds up excitement and frustration I would just get further away.

Good luck. This will pass. The less he gets to practice bowling kids over - the faster it will pass. And when it does pass, and he is all serious and grown up, there will be moments when you will dearly miss your wild baby dog...
Meanwhile, I would suggest avoidance, with slow and controlled reintroduction to wild kids a bit later.

 

[Janer]

Does he like a squeaky ball or have a favourite toy? When Roxy was young she was a nightmare especially with kids playing ball or running around. I found squeaking the ball just before she was about to go off on one worked as it was loud and distracted her enough that she would look at it and carry on walking with me focused on the toy, then after the ‘danger’ was passed I would have a game with her with it. You have to make the squeaky and yourself more exciting though that’s the hard part. I would say the same as above replies, avoid all interactions until he’s a bit older as at the moment he’s not mature enough to be calm x

 

[JessandJackson]

I'd follow the Dogs Trust advice - I have a dog who is over friendly with other dogs so I've been there to a certain extent.

You are in control here. In scenario 2 for example I would have not allowed any interaction with the children . Just taken my dog and walked on. It's nice to stop and chat but you need to avoid situations where he can misbehave like that. I know you don't want to appear rude but getting your dog trained has to be the priority at the moment.

Thanks for the heads-up. On another note, I just checked out your cottage and may have to take a further look into it - looks beautiful.

 

[JessandJackson]

First up - he doesn't know he's been 'naughty', he just knows that you're being 'odd' with him. Punishment after the event is rarely, if ever, effective, and he probably has idea that it was linked to him playing with 'human puppies' in a way that was completely appropriate in his mind.

Adolescent lurchers can be wild and almost uncontrollable and at times truly horrible!! It's normal for them, so please don't compare Jackson with other pups. Been there, done that, it's like comparing a tiger with a domestic pussy cat!

I would treat this in a similar way to dogs who make a beeline for other dogs and want to play with them all regardless. Keep your distance from children, and put him on lead before he takes off after them. And work on recall, focus on you, etc., to give you more chance of getting him back to you (don't expect too much while he's going through adolescence). I think allowing interactions with other children while he's on lead is fine, if he can manage a calm interaction (maybe in a sit?) and if you can persuade the child that the moment he gets excited or grabs, the child should turn and walk away. Don't let children give him treats - if he's been calm you can give him a treat.

Good old Judy!

Yes agree - Jackson not the typical pup or dog in my eyes (bet everyone says that about their dogs though!)

 

[JessandJackson]

My 2 cents (Sorry!!) - this is a perfectly normal large size baby dog, full of energy and curiosity, doing what feels good, g-d bless him.

Agree with Judy - telling him off after the fact, or being “odd” with him later at home - won’t yield the results you are looking for. It’s not dissimilar to punishing the dog who ran away after he came back. He will most likely associate the punishment with the action of coming back, which is the opposite of what you’d want.

So, IMHO at this stage of the game avoidance is probably the best approach. Take him to places where there are no wild kids to chase, or if there are wild kids everywhere - take him there at times when they are asleep or just not there.

Putting him in a “sit” and trying to distract with treats - not great to me in this case. Treats at this stage won’t measure up to wild kids, so him sitting there staring at the kids just builds up excitement and frustration I would just get further away.

Good luck. This will pass. The less he gets to practice bowling kids over - the faster it will pass. And when it does pass, and he is all serious and grown up, there will be moments when you will dearly miss your wild baby dog...
Meanwhile, I would suggest avoidance, with slow and controlled reintroduction to wild kids a bit later.

How long do you think I should "avoid" the children situation? Quite lucky as of course, when the dog walker takes him mid week midday, people and kids are locked away!

 

[JessandJackson]

Does he like a squeaky ball or have a favourite toy? When Roxy was young she was a nightmare especially with kids playing ball or running around. I found squeaking the ball just before she was about to go off on one worked as it was loud and distracted her enough that she would look at it and carry on walking with me focused on the toy, then after the ‘danger’ was passed I would have a game with her with it. You have to make the squeaky and yourself more exciting though that’s the hard part. I would say the same as above replies, avoid all interactions until he’s a bit older as at the moment he’s not mature enough to be calm x

It's funny - he doesn't have a favourite toy. He lucks a tug rope and he usually runs after the balls / sticks and picks them up, walks round with them in his mouth, gets distracted and drops them in a undergrowth somewhere. I think bull breeds are quite different as in - right now he has a tennis ball and is just pulling it apart. He likes things he can just sit with and get his teeth stuck into - he won't sit there and chew, he'll sit there and rip. So - maybe I can get him a squeaky toy today and see how he gets on I just avoid those things as he's so strong he pulls them apart and pulls the squeak out in minutes lol.

 

[Michele83]

When my dog was younger and used to go crazy trying to play with other dogs and humans who came up to her, I used to crouch down right next to her and hold her harness with both hands, one at the neck part and one at the body part, so I could hold on to her tightly while the other dog, or the human, was fussing with her. This meant she couldn't jump around or do anything really. And the humans would understand that the dog wasn't going to play. Then we just moved on. Can you do this? It's a very easy solution. Was your dog on the lead in the situations you describe? I always put mine on the lead if I saw other dogs or children (before I knew she could be trusted).

 

[JessandJackson]

OK, so I thought I would give everyone a pup-date on this post... I am typing this a tad on the emotional side.

Lauren - experienced trainer / walker whom I met a few walks ago reached out to me and said she wants to pack walk him once a week and help train him for me. She popped in today and gave me good walking techniques to help with the pulling and the whole allowing yourself to leave the home first / get him to set and then leave after you etc.

We went on an "intro" walk over to a pretty bog-standard playing field. Quite a popular circle-walk for dog walkers in my area and one I have taken him to before and let him off etc. We got 5 minutes in, let him off (as we couldn't see any children) (I prepped her about all the examples lately) - he pottered around then all of a sudden he clocked the tennis court and the fact a ball was going 100mph around. He darted straight over to watch (it was gated). We both looked at each other and just said oh sh*t - about 1/2 way around to the side was a Dad, a 1 year old and 5 year old plodding about. By that point he clocked the tiny human beings with brightly coloured clothing & talking high-pitched... we were 1/2 way across that field &I felt like I was about to vomit with anxiety. He bowled the baby over & started to play tug with her coat on the floor - the Dad reacted immediately /grabbed him & launched him away & Jackson came back for more but on the little boy - did the same, bowled him over and wanted to tug (and sadly growel with excitement) on the Parker jacket / hood / sleeves. I ran so fast, I grabbed him and yanked him off the boy and carried him over to a tree - I got the lead and muzzled him up with the hand-hole and put another lead onto his harness. I was just sobbing. To add insult to injury - a jogger (yuppie) came over and was all "I SAW THAT YOU SHOULD REPORT A DANGEROUS DOG IT NEEDS TO BE TAKEN AWAY AND MUZZLED". Sadly I live in an area of range-rover driving stay-at-home-Mum's vs my kids are every vs I have a dog but it's the size of my shoe and it's more of a trophy than a dog... therefore... a bull breed in my area, 7/10 is frowned on. Anyway, thankfully Lauren just handled it beautifully with her Australian charm & experience with kids. I felt like a complete wet weekend - crying in the corner. We all apologised profusely but there were people 1/2 way across the field just standing & watching it all.

Anyway - we of course kept him leaded up for the rest of the walk. Quite pleasant and happy around all the other types of dogs which was sad as he was clucking to be let off and run. Laura kept an eye out for triggers that set this obsessive overly excited streak - one, funnily enough, was a lady with a shopping bag that had some like tissue paper inside he wanted to sniff - he had a sniff and went a little skitzo and then wanted to jump up at the lady so she pulled him and sat him to calm him. I liked all her techniques they gave me reassurance. She said she'll pay another visit before she pack-walks him in the New Year but nonetheless, here I am at my PC, reluctant to go out for a drink tonight - red-eyed and just watching him sleep - feeling sorry for him and myself.

 

[JudyN]

What a horrible experience, I can understand how you feel You do need to develop a thick skin when you have a wild adolescent pup but it's not easy. I can assure you though that almost every lurcher (and other breeds of course) owner has had similar mortifying experiences.

Obviously this behaviour DOES need careful management as though he probably doesn't have a bad bone in his body, he could injure a child. So this will involve more time on lead/training line, and walking at inconvenient times in inconvenient places. There's a website that can give details of enclosed dog walking fields local to you: The Only Listings Site for Enclosed Dog Walking Fields in the UK

It's good you've found a calm confident dog walker who can take this in her stride. I'm a little wary of her methods - it used to be said that always walking through doors before the dog would reinforce that you were pack leader, but that approach as been discredited now. On the other hand, though, getting your dog used to following your commands, waiting for you to say OK, or whatever is very valuable. If it suited you better for the dog to stand quietly while you put the lead on (sitting is uncomfortable for some lurchers) and then, on command, walk out the door before you, that's just as good. But hey, if her approach helps you and J, then that's all that matters!

Talking of self-control, have a look on YouTube for a video called 'It's Yer Choice' on impulse control. Not only does a dog need to know what you want him to do, he has to have the self-control to stop himself doing what he wants to do. This video really helped me, and I developed it into games like teaching my dog to stand on a small mat, putting another in front of him and telling him to stand on that one, then putting the first one in front of that... I'd start him at one end of the kitchen, put a treat at the far end, and gradually get him to go from mat to mat till he could get to the treat. It's good fun, a chance for some great interaction, and will work the dog's brain so - in theory - he's less wired for his next walk.

 

[Ari_RR]

Go out, have a drink, chill - nothing new or unexpected happened, really.. he saw little kids and went over to play with them, the way he knows how to play. Why would you or anyone be surprised or disappointed? And cheer up - tomorrow is another day!

You can surely practice impulse control in the kitchen, it's a good thing. But even if he becomes a master of self-control in the kitchen, do not expect the same outdoor when he sees kids.

I would suggest taking "avoidance" seriously, for a while. This would really mean ensuring no kids. Not just a glance around, but 5 AM walks if that's what it takes. It's a bit of a pain, but you will also appreciate not having to worry about undesirable encounters.

People looking, shaking heads from across the filed, frowning, whispering to each other pointing fingers at you - nonsense. I know it's easier said than done, but I've been there more times than I care to admit - this just needs to be ignored, you will have to grow thicker skin, he may never grow into a dog which will please your neighbors, I would start trying to accept this as just a fact of life. Trust me - this is not the end of the world Eventually he will win some of them over, make friends - and that will feel darn good!

 

[JessandJackson]

Thanks all to have replied so far.

Yes we have a huge lake area about 10 minutes drive from us more towards Heathrow airport and you get the more down to earth people going there... and it also has a dedicated excersize park for the dogs there. I’m ok in the week. The dog walker hasn’t yet come faced with kids yet / at school and people at work. Nevertheless I have texted her to just keep her informed about today’s antics. It’s the weekends and obviously now the festive period where people and their kids are out and about. It’s fine. Like you said. Nothing that hasn’t before and I love him so ofcourse I’ll get up and do a 930am walk instead of waitng until lunch where people are present. But I am pretty confident with the lake area. My boyfriend agreed he needs to step in more and do like even take him night walks round the streets. Mummy’s really do end up doing everything.

No. Can’t face a drink tonight but gone to get a massage and a facial instead. My boyfriends a plumber and given the time of year isn’t about a lot during days. But he’ll be home soon - I left Jackson with a nice marrow bone and told him I loved him. Ah. Look at me. I’m soppy. I just hope he grows out of this and gets over children...

 

[Ari_RR]

Let's apply the magic of "positive".

The stage is set this way - you and Jackson are walking down the path, and there they are - little bright colored kids, waving arms, screaming and yelling and laughing.. all very exciting.

What would you like Jackson to do?

'NOT TO RUN OVER" is not a good answer, it's actually not an answer at all.

So, let's say you want him to come closer to you and keep walking while focused on you. This sounds pretty good, and would probably even impress your dearest neighbors.

Ok, now we have a target to train for.

You come up with a command, or a gesture, or some other signal, reward, etc... the usual positive way of training... BUT - you have to start with no distractions, and then slowly increase the level of difficulty by having distractions.. first kids a block away, then half a block away, then closer, closer... slowly, gradually... But is starts with no kids.

So, that's what avoidance will give you. It will give you an opportunity to train to focus on you, with no distractions, which is a necessary first step on a rather long road towards you walking with Jackson through the kids playground and him paying no attention to the kids.

You seem to want to find a place where down-to-earth humans are. They will probably be more tolerant, and will probably laugh at a puppy playing rough with kids instead of calling a dog warden... This will make your life a bit easier, but it will not help Jackson.

Avoidance, and not just avoidance but using absense of kids to train focus on you during the walks - that would have been my action plan.

Good luck!

 

[Auntie Ange]

Go out, have a drink, chill - nothing new or unexpected happened, really.. he saw little kids and went over to play with them, the way he knows how to play. Why would you or anyone be surprised or disappointed? And cheer up - tomorrow is another day!

You can surely practice impulse control in the kitchen, it's a good thing. But even if he becomes a master of self-control in the kitchen, do not expect the same outdoor when he sees kids.

I would suggest taking "avoidance" seriously, for a while. This would really mean ensuring no kids. Not just a glance around, but 5 AM walks if that's what it takes. It's a bit of a pain, but you will also appreciate not having to worry about undesirable encounters.

People looking, shaking heads from across the filed, frowning, whispering to each other pointing fingers at you - nonsense. I know it's easier said than done, but I've been there more times than I care to admit - this just needs to be ignored, you will have to grow thicker skin, he may never grow into a dog which will please your neighbors, I would start trying to accept this as just a fact of life. Trust me - this is not the end of the world Eventually he will win some of them over, make friends - and that will feel darn good!

Jess you did the right thing, you rescued a dog and he is lucky to have some one who is going to help him grow into a lovely boy. Unlike your well to do neighbours who spent hundreds of pounds on a 'pedigree' which is often a designer cross breed these days.
Ange