OPEN SHOW JUDGING

[~JO~]

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Well as a newbie in the whippet show world, I cam across my first encounter of judging that was just a little bias at an Open show at the weekend.

The judge just didn't like fawns, only coloureds. I was in puppy class (4 coloureds, 2 fawns), when in the final line up the judge came and removed all 4 coloured dogs and ignored the two fawns and the two fawns were not placed (of which I was one).

I though fair enough, best dog on the day until I left the ring and a couple of other exhibitors cam up to me and said not to worry as the judge doesn't like fawns. And from thereafter every class bar 1, a coloured dog won except in a class where there wasn't any!!

Oh well, I do find it a little annoying and I know I shouldn't moan but it was just a little frustrating to watch! Maybe in the judges mind all the coloureds were the best dogs but from the crowds reaction, I think they disagreed!

I will forget it and get on with the next one, I suppose this sort of thing is bound to happen occasionally!

 

[Debra]

Hi Joe,

Welcome to the world of dog showing, i know it's not suppose to happen but it does and it's not just restricted to Whippets we also had an Alaskan Malamute and we would come up against Judges who would not like wolf grey dogs but loved the black and whites. I find that alot of American judges don't care much for blue/fawn whippets. You just remember that judge and don't go under them again, it's trial and error same with size and markings etc, etc. Just hang in there .

Debra

 

[dawn]

Hi Joe

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience, as debra said you will just have to put it down to experience.

Could you ask the breeder which judges you should show under as she/he should know who should like their lines.

Well no one can say we have a colour preference as between us Richard and i have owned one of every coulour I think :0

If your dog performed well then you should be pleased after all we all take the best dog home

 

[Karen]

Bad luck Joe, You do get a few who favour one colour, sometimes they will only put up fawns, just keep a show record book or do a little investigation into what type/colour they have. Most of us I think (read below!!) judge to the standard but sometimes a certain type comes with a specific colouring so you need to see if the judge's line up look the same for type as well as colour.

I think in the UK we are far less choosy about colour than most countries.

 

[Debra]

after all we all take the best dog home

I certainly agree with you Dawn, i always go home with the best dog/dogs on the day even if they don't win.

Debra

 

[Debra]

I think in the UK we are far less choosy about colour than most countries.

Hey Karen,

I agree with you as well, i must be feeling very agreeable tonight :b .

Debra

 

[JAMES]

Hi Joe,

Just goes to show that it's down to personal preference (there's no accounting for taste). Who's to say that any one dog is better than another? Although we must have a winner otherwise why enter. I'm sure that these shows play their part in maintaning the poplularity and providing entertainment, but a few involved are in serious danger of disappearing up their own A*@s! Hopefully you won't come across too many.

Have fun taking part and remember every whippet whatever the colour is a winner, and they look a lot better than most judges.

 

[chelynnah]

Looking back I have to laugh about one Open Show we went to. The judge obviously like his whippets a bit bigger - and in every class all the males placed ahead of the females. Did no one tell him that males generally are bigger than females??

Wendy

 

[iang]

Why should you have to put it down to experience?????? If a judge is generally known to show a dislike or a bias,it should be the judge who is taken to task,If it is known for a fact that a judge discards certain colours then that judge should be taken to task not by the exhibitors but by the proper authorities from whom they were appointed.So rather than the exhibitors keeping a look out to avoid these judges maybe someone should be keeping a look out to prevent this happening.If other exhibitors are saying"hard luck this judge is known to not like your dogs colour" They must have first hand knowledge of this,and therefor by not protesting about it are to some extent condoning it.I have no axe to grind with any judge,as I have only just purchased a pup with a show background.But it makes me think twice about showing her,as if I am prepared to spend my money on petrol and various other expenses to get to a show,I would want to know that my dog was being judged on merit,not on the fact that she is discarded just for the fact that she is not"The favoured Colour" :angry:

 

[dawn]

Why should you have to put it down to experience?

Well what else can you realistically do about it?

If it is known for a fact that a judge discards certain colours then that judge should be taken to task not by the exhibitors but by the proper authorities from whom they were appointed

Who appoints the judges? At Open show level it is the committee often at the recommendation of an exhibitor - hopefully a whippet person but not always. Quite often the BIS judge is asked what breeds he (he embraces she throughout) wishes to do, or he is left with breeds the committee can think of no-one to judge for them.

If other exhibitors are saying"hard luck this judge is known to not like your dogs colour"

This comes with experience. Several years ago, before we were together, Richard told me not to bother showing under a particular judge as 'He doesnt judge the dogs' 'He stands in the ring with a whisky in one hand 'pats your dog on the head' and watches the next ring whilst your dog moves' (I am sure many know who I mean )

I did go under this person and what Richard had said is exactly what happened. I would not recommend anyone to show under him BUT they do. It is personal choice and you learn by Y O U R own mistakes - it is what is called experience

Having said that I do believe the vast majority of judges do judge the dog on the day and would encourage you to show if the dog you have has been sold as show quality which may be different to being from show stock !

If the judges have a personal preference in type this is perfectly acceptable. If the judge doesnt like my type of dog I have no problem with that - What I do dislike is judges who do not judge the dog- judges whose lineup varies tremendously in shape, size, quality and type when there is a decent selection of dogs to select from. There are some judges who we would not show under as we know they do not like our type of dog and likewise those like the one above.

And remember the folk who have been on the scene for years have the experience of knowing what type of dog a particular judge is likely to place and only enter dogs of that type - thus win more often.

I am judging this weekend and know at least one exhibitor will be pleased with my judging, some probably wont be.

 

[Lydia]

Hi Joe, by coloured's do you mean black and blue? It's just that I can't think of a judge who would select these just for their colour, usually, they are only placed by whippet breed specialists, if I knew of any variety judges who would seriously consider them, I'd give them an entry!

Lyd

 

[Karen]

Lyd, There are quite a few breed judges who go for blacks and blues, plus the ones who dont mind what colour they are.

As I said earlier perhaps we should look at the line up for type before we assume they have been judged on colour.

Perhaps I always think the best of people but some ringsiders have a knack of saying offputting things to new exhibitors that the more seasoned wouldnt give a thought to.

At my first open show I won best of breed (thought it was easy then!!!) A well known person in the breed came over and said ' well done dear, but wasnt the judging terrible' Being a bit slow I never replied and looking back I guess she didnt even mean to be nasty but I could have taken it the wrong way.

 

[~JO~]

By coloureds, I mean anything that wasn't a fawn basically. In my class the judge moved all the coloured dogs a second time and walked straight past the fawns.

I thought this a bit strange as in my very limited experience, once in the final line up before the judge has selected the judge either moves all the dogs again or just two they are having difficulty in deciding between. In another class I watched there was a brindle (2 years old) as well as about 7 fawns, the brindle hadn't even been trained to be stacked up on the table - so the judge stacked it up for the handler, also the dog hadn't been trained to gait so the judge removed the dog 3 times and it was eventually given first place!

I know exactly what you are saying Karen, and you are right that it is to easy to assume it was the colour that she didn't like. I do think though after watching most the classes the coincidence was too great! This is the time I wish I had it all on video recorder so I could watch it after - just to make sure!

Anyway, I was very proud as it was my boys first outside show and he behaved very well as I was a bit worried that he associates grass with bunny chasing! But I was really pleased and he thought it was all very good fun - especially teh hog-roast after!

 

[John E Greenwood]

I went to a show at the weekend and I didn't expect to get anywhere as my dog is black and white.So when he got second place I was over the moon.I was told that black and whites wont get anywhere because not many judges go for that colour.All the other dogs were fawn,fawn and white or brindle and white.When I got second place some of the others were surprised.So did I get picked because he was different.I have been told that certain judges like certain colours and I know that some show dogs only go to the shows that will pick them.For people like myself and Joe who are new to this it sounds like we are in for a daunting time.Seeing as this is quite common maybe we could have a site that names the Judges who like certain colours then we might know who to avoid.

 

[Vanna]

There is no denying that it does happen, but as Dawn says, the majority of judges are looking at the dogs themselves and not the colour.

It is also worth remembering that sometimes a particular colour is inclined to be more common in a particular type. If there are enough good dogs in a class, a judge will be able to pick out quality examples of the type (s)he prefers, and they may be similar colours because fawn, brindle & white or whatever is prevalent in that type. In a smaller class type may not (and sometimes should not) come into it. Perhaps you could talk to your dog's breeder when doing entries. They may know what type the judge shows, and that may give you some idea of what they may like.

It may be that the brindle, being shown by a beginner was a very nice specimen. (Please, I'm not being inflammatory here, and I don't know what dog it was or what show we are talking about!) But if a nice dog is being shown by a beginner, should it be penalised simply because it's handler is still learning? I am not suggesting that a judge should send something that won't stand still into the BIS ring, but if it is the best in the class, and the judge is able to see that, in spite of the handling, why shouldn't it win its class?

 

[patsy]

I went to a show at the weekend and I didn't expect to get anywhere as my dog is black and white.So when he got second place I was over the moon.I was told that black and whites wont get anywhere because not many judges go for that colour.All the other dogs were fawn,fawn and white or brindle and white.When I got second place some of the others were surprised.So did I get picked because he was different.I have been told that certain judges like certain colours and I know that some show dogs only go to the shows that will pick them.For people like myself and Joe who are new to this it sounds like we are in for a daunting time.Seeing as this is quite common maybe we could have a site that names the Judges who like certain colours then we might know who to avoid.

John, you should not be in for a daunting time, , at the open shows you get judges that are just starting to judge, like all experieced judges they should read the breed standard, colour, all colours and mixtures of colours!I think that you have to look at a black and white very carefully as some times their markings distract and draw your eye more than a softer fawn and white, whole colours are much easier to judge as the eye is drawn to the overall dog, it is your hands when going over a dog that tell you its faults and virtues, and it is always virtuesyou judge on and never faults, every dog has faults, and movement plays a big part, for me side gait is very important. There is a young black and white dog being shown at the moment by a novice , she has had lots of lovely wins with him including the C.C. at Manchester. Good Luck with your boy and keep going and well done on your second place

Patsy

 

[Debra]

I think that you have to look at a black and white very carefully as some times their markings distract and draw your eye more than a softer fawn and white, whole colours are much easier to judge as the eye is drawn to the overall dog, it is your hands when going over a dog that tell you its faults and virtues, and it is always virtues you judge on and never faults, every dog has faults, and movement plays a big part, for me side gait is very important. Patsy

Patsy,

I agree with you and i feel the same applies when it comes to blue's, they give the illusion of being fine boned(and some are) but when you go over these dogs they are ok, what really S##t's me is when a dog wins because it looks good on the stack but can't move to save it's life and it goes on to wins because of the person on the end of the lead(do you think that's abit strong? :b ), ive decided to stop as i think i just might get myself into trouble if i carry on . To Joe and John i say don't give up(i keep saying that, but due to illness in the family i have had to, for the moment) and to all these people in the breed that say not so nice things(only a few people) your only worried because we might beat you one day.

I will get down off my soapbox now and be abit quieter .

Debra

 

[Karen]

When I first started judging I was obsessed with movement, I didnt care how wonderful it looked standing it had to move right. Now a few years down the line I see that movement is only part of the package. If I had two dogs in front of me and one was exhibiting excellent breed type but went a bit close behind or toed in slightly, the other had excellent movement all round but was short in loin or had to much arch over the loin or straight stifles :0 and yes these dogs can move very well particulaly coming and going, which would I give the first place to, well which would you give the first place to? ??? Movement is still a big part of the overall picture for me but its still an overall picture.

Debra, I used to think faces won too much and Im sure it does happen sometimes but most of the time IMO its because they know how to pick a pup, show the dog and where to show it.

a novice handler can make a really good dog look ordinary and an expierienced handler can make an ordinary dog look really good.

John and Joe, Make sure your handling is A1 and if your dog goes well and is turned out well then you cant ask more than that. Win or lose I just look forward to the next show and never dwell too much on what went on at the last one there is too many what ifs and you can get dispondant trying to analysing it all. Im sure you will be made very welcome at the shows and people will help you as much as they can.

Finally, you cant police it and report judges to the KC for colour bais or anything else, we have gone for their opinion of our dog, and how could you ever prove someone was not considering all the colours if they just prefered the movement, type, bone, size of the others.

 

[Terry Smith]

I think that you have to look at a black and white very carefully as some times their markings distract and draw your eye more than a softer fawn and white, whole colours are much easier to judge as the eye is drawn to the overall dog, it is your hands when going over a dog that tell you its faults and virtues,

I remember some one telling me that B & Ws looked like "smooth haired fox terriers". It was at SYWC open at Grenoside about 5 years ago .

Wonder if they still hold that opinion!

 

[anniewhippet]

This I am afraid is an 'old hot potato' which never seems to be resolved but is there not an old saying ' a good dog/horse is not a bad colour'. I agree there are some judges who are blinded to one particular colour, and I have even heard some proudly :0 admit to that fact which says to me that they do not see the overall picture, type, movement, conformation etc etc.

Over time the 'few' colour blind will become evident to you & then vote with your feet as we have tried to do, mind you it gets confusing when you have owned a few different colours over the years

And I do agree that certain colours are more testing on the eye when stacked but that is why we have a hands on & then movement examination, next time you ought to ask the judge to close his/her eyes when actually doing the hands on, they might be surprised :0

Keep at it & enjoy, that or invest in a few pots of different coloured paint to take with you just in case