Population Genetics In Purebred Dogs

[jayp]

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Thought this very interesting have a read Jan

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...bmedid=17966340

 

[rls22]

Thanks for that Jan.

Best make myself a brew before settling down to read that lot!! :lol:

 

[jok]

an interesting read and it's written in a very easy to understand way :thumbsup:

 

[seaspot_run]

This is the new paradigm.

 

[whippynit]

Will print off and read, thanks Jan :cheers:

 

[jayp]

This is the new paradigm.

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Thanks Karen, have just had to Google this as wasnt sure of its meaning

I think it means " New scientific train of thought " "example"

If you can explain better i would be grateful Jan

 

[seaspot_run]

This is the new paradigm.

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Thanks Karen, have just had to Google this as wasnt sure of its meaning

I think it means " New scientific train of thought " "example"

If you can explain better i would be grateful Jan

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The way I am using it is in a way that satisfies two different definitions: "a theoretical/philosophical framework", and Kuhn's definition which is "an entire constellation of beliefs, values and techniques, and so on, shared by the members of a given community" (in this case, the competition purebred dog breeding community)

Perhaps the greatest barrier to a paradigm shift, in some cases, is the reality of paradigm paralysis, the inability or refusal to see beyond the current models of thinking.

What I am seeing is a paradigm shift between the older way which was established prior to the discovery of DNA when most of the genetics knowledge was straight from Gregor Mendel and his peas, and this new way which is both a reaction to bad public relations and to new knowledge from the fields of molecular biology, immunology, and genetics--things which were NOT known when the basic patterns of the dog show hobby were set down by the founders of our sport. It started as a rumbling about 10-15 years ago when registries for some breeds were temporarily opened to related breeds or non-pedigree imports in an effort to "fix" specific genetic problems. It's now building to a crescendo.

I hope that explains it.

I don't know if looking harder at things like COI, or opening up registries, or both, holds the answer, but there is no question the sport is having to change with the times. It's too easy to vilify dedicated hobby breeders. We have both a genetics and a looming PR crisis in many of our breeds, and the sport as a whole.

 

[jok]

This is the new paradigm.

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Thanks Karen, have just had to Google this as wasnt sure of its meaning

I think it means " New scientific train of thought " "example"

If you can explain better i would be grateful Jan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

The way I am using it is in a way that satisfies two different definitions: "a theoretical/philosophical framework", and Kuhn's definition which is "an entire constellation of beliefs, values and techniques, and so on, shared by the members of a given community" (in this case, the competition purebred dog breeding community)

Perhaps the greatest barrier to a paradigm shift, in some cases, is the reality of paradigm paralysis, the inability or refusal to see beyond the current models of thinking.

What I am seeing is a paradigm shift between the older way which was established prior to the discovery of DNA when most of the genetics knowledge was straight from Gregor Mendel and his peas, and this new way which is both a reaction to bad public relations and to new knowledge from the fields of molecular biology, immunology, and genetics--things which were NOT known when the basic patterns of the dog show hobby were set down by the founders of our sport. It started as a rumbling about 10-15 years ago when registries for some breeds were temporarily opened to related breeds or non-pedigree imports in an effort to "fix" specific genetic problems. It's now building to a crescendo.

I hope that explains it.

I don't know if looking harder at things like COI, or opening up registries, or both, holds the answer, but there is no question the sport is having to change with the times. It's too easy to vilify dedicated hobby breeders. We have both a genetics and a looming PR crisis in many of our breeds, and the sport as a whole.

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I think that's a really good post Karen. "Paradigm paralysis" could certainly be a problem, but hopefully people will be open to educating themselves on this very very fascinating subject.

 

[seaspot_run]

I think that's a really good post Karen.  "Paradigm paralysis" could certainly be a problem, but hopefully people will be open to educating themselves on this very very fascinating subject.

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JFYO, I ripped off that line from wikipedia. I should have attributed.

 

[Seraphina]

Paradigm paralyzes, is prefect way to describe it ! :lol: I just love it.

Dog breeding has been firmly stuck in 18th century believes. It is high time to drag into the 21st, regardless how much will some people kick and scream. Thankfully, it should be comparatively painless process for Whippets.

 

[dragonfly]

 

"Perhaps the greatest barrier to a paradigm shift, in some cases, is the reality of paradigm paralysis, the inability or refusal to see beyond the current models of thinking."

That is a perfect description, It is rather like the day it was announced that the world was round. We certainly have our fair share of "Flat Earthers" in the dog breeding game!

Cathie

 

[urchin]

for me the paradigm paralysis is summed up in the report with this thought

" the production of anatomically deformed dogs, such as pugs and daschunds, is neither shocking nor considered abnormal. To the contrary, it is taken for granted as part of a typical day as a veterinarian to see such dogs paraded in and out of the clinic for treatment of their problems."

For there to be breeds which cannot exist without serious medical intervention should be shocking. To actively breed deformities and disease into animals should be shocking. To accept that painful and debilitating conditions are par for the course for certain breeds should be shocking.

right now all of these are considered acceptable bi-products of achieving a desired set of characteristics - and it is the dogs who have to bear it.

The paradigm shift required is huge and will require people to step back and take a long hard look at what they are actually doing to the dogs that they profess to love.

Luckily, as previously stated, the blow won't be as hard for whippeteers to take as our breed is nowhere near so far gone as others. But it does affect us and unless we shift our thinking out of the Victorian era too, whippets will in time go the same sad was as the other, once-healthy breeds.

 

[petrezselyem]

Interesting. And yes, the new paradigm.

 

[moonlake]

Paradigm paralyzes, is prefect way to describe it !  :lol: I just love it.
Dog breeding has been firmly stuck in 18th century believes.  It is high time to drag into the 21st, regardless how much will some people kick and scream.  Thankfully, it should be comparatively painless process for Whippets.

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But it is also perplexing to know what route to take. I had all my dogs younger than 10 eye tested because I was alarmed by the Dutch report at the Swedish Congress but I have been unable to find a routine heart test - my vets clearly think I am crazy to be asking about heart tests as they see so little heart disease in whippets (although I think one of mine died of it aged 12 which seemed very young) and they are not able to do ultra sound on such small dogs. I also have a 12=year old who has been diagnosed as hypothyroid - which the Dobermann Breed Council website says is hereditary and should be tested for - does this also apply to whippets? One could spend a huge amount of money just to acumulate a lot of "clear" certificates which in any case are only valid for a year. Karen, could you tell us, please if anyone in America tests their breeding stock for potential hypothyroidism?

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

 

[Scudder]

you tell us, please if anyone in America tests their breeding stock for potential hypothyroidism?
Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

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I'm not Karen, but I can answer this question and the answer is YES, especially in some lines with known issues, although the test isn't done as regularly as others and if it is, not all people report the results. Its often done as a health check for an animal that might be having trouble holding weight (too much or too little) or for a dog that has an unexplained illness or general malaise.

I have issues with hypothyroidism in my racing line coming down off the old American racing whippets from the 60s and 70s. Whippets are known for having a "low-normal" thyroid which is nothing to be concerned about, much like racing greyhounds, but I have issues that are definitely LOW back there so I check everyone coming down off that pedigree and so far [knock on wood], the dogs are doing ok but I'm mindful of the issue when choosing stud dogs. It is hereditary, although managed quite easily with low-cost medication.

Thyroid tests are registered through OFA

The OFA registers the majority of testing for dogs here in the US. There is a database on there and you can see the results of testing for various breeds as well as information about various health issues.

The OFA database is dependent on owners to submit their information so they can receive a certificate. It is costly to have entire kennels registered for sure. Thats why for things like congenital deafness or thyroid, people might just keep the paper on hand from the doctor as proof and not submit the information to the database. I'm guilty of it, but I'm trying to change that and get everything submitted. I also think people expect complete transparency with health issues now. If you aren't on a public database it looks like you have something to hide, which I find usually isn't true.

For breeds with issues like Hip Dysplasia, the only way to get a certificate and know what rating you will get is to submit the Xrays to OFA to be read by a panel of veterinarian specialists.

Standard procedure here for hearts is an echocardiogram by a board certified cardiologist. An OFA form is filled out and sometimes submitted and sometimes not. I've submitted heart information to the Whippet Heath Foundation, but not to OFA. If anyone wants to use my dogs or is inquiring about their health I just send them a PDF scan.

We use the health tests in our advertising here as well. Butters ads include his BAER, CERF and Cardio (aescult) Normal. His echo will be done at the end of the month. In fact, they added "health tests" as a category in the pedigree section of our AWC Annual publication.

I feel its just as important to test NORMAL dogs as it is dogs with suspected health problems. How do you establish a baseline should something arise with the dog in the future? If a 10 year old dog has mitral valve disease how do you know if he didn't start having deterioration at 10? at 8? at 3?

Kristen

 

[Seraphina]

I decided to have my girls checked. Well, it is proving to be lot more complicated and expensive that i thought.

First i emailed our KC for information about doing heart scans; that was week ago and they still have not answered.

So I went to see my vet to discus how to do it. I took only Claudia, he checked her and all is normal. But to do the heart scan I will have to go to a specialist, and it will cost about $500. Interestingly to scan dog that has been diagnosed with heart problem would only be less that half.

To do all my girls will not be cheap. I am now pondering if I should wait until after Xmas, or just do Claudia in this moment. She is the only one I am planning to breed from, but that is not going to happen until the end of 2009 or sometime in 2010. Plenty of time, and I imagine the later the better???

So maybe it would be better to wait with the scan? Is there ever a time that heart problem would not be apparent when the heart is tested? Obviously it can be missed when just checking with stethoscope, but I always thought that there are some minute differences in diseased heart, which progressively become worse.

 

[Scudder]

I get echos done for $285 US and my cardiologist owns whippets which is pretty cool.

A lot of people wait and get their testing done at the National when its basically half price (or less!) and subsidized by the Whippet Health Foundation. Last year it was $175 US or only $100 US if you let them post it to the WHF database! Thats a GOOD deal.

At the National our prices were:

Eyes (CERF) $25 US

Hearing (BAER) $45 US, $25 US if you reported it to the WHF database

Heart (Echocardiogram) $175 US, $100 if you reported it to WHF

DNA Profile from AKC $30 US

Myostatin Deficiency ("bully" gene) $48 US, $28 if reported to WHF

Essentially you can get a breeding animal done at the National for about $200 total if you are willing to report results to the WHF database and DNA, Myostatin and BAER are one time only tests!

Its great to have a parent club on board the health testing bandwagon!

 

[Seraphina]

I get echos done for $285 US and my cardiologist owns whippets which is pretty cool.Its great to have a parent club on board the health testing bandwagon!

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Two weeks ago $285 US would have been about $300 OZ, today it is about $500 OZ :lol:

I believe some KC in other states in Australia do have some deals with universities. Hope our KC will also do something like that.

I lost my very special Borzoi with cardiomyopathy. She died without any warning just 3 months before her 3rd birthday.

 

[doris]

I feel its just as important to test NORMAL dogs as it is dogs with suspected health problems. How do you establish a baseline should something arise with the dog in the future? If a 10 year old dog has mitral valve disease how do you know if he didn't start having deterioration at 10? at 8? at 3?
Kristen

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Kirsten, I think you have just summed it up, all in one little neat paragraph :thumbsup: