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Puppy in heat

Discussion in 'Puppy Forum' started by Marjory, Sep 2, 2018.

  1. Marjory

    Marjory New Member Registered

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    hi I would like some advice, our miniature Australian labradoodle is 5 months and I have not had her dressed yet, ideally it would be good for her well being to have a first season, but as I have a 2yr old beardie who is still intact I don’t really want the stress. How is beardie going to react, is this little puppy who he adores like a sister suddenly going to become a dog of interest to him in other ways ? Should I get her done at 6 months anyone else have an idea when first season will be ?
     
  2. excuseme

    excuseme Well-Known Member Registered

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    Has your boy been castrated? If he has then there would be nothing to worry about and your girl could grow and mature to a sensible age, preferably 18 months or after after her first season.
     
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  3. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

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    He most certainly wouldn't see her as a 'sister' once she comes into season. You would have to keep them physically separated, exercise them separately, and put up with them howling to get at each other. It can be done, but... one person I know who did this had two chihuahuas which would have been a lot easier to keep separate, and she still found it very stressful!

    I don't suppose there's anyone one of your dogs could go 'on holiday' to when she comes into season?
     
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  4. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    I would definitely vote for “spay before her 1st estrus” -
    doing it then virtually eliminates the risk of breast cancer, 4X as common in F dogs as it is in F humans, & many-times more lethal. // nearly 7 of every 10 F dogs diagnosed with malignant mammary tumors dies at that same vet appt, b/c on x-ray it’s easy to see that there’s are already tumors in her lungs, & no treatment is possible. :(

    That isn’t due to any neglect on the owner’s part, but simply that by the time she has symptoms, there are already metastases elsewhere. K9 breast cancer is very aggressive; M dogs can get it, too, but it’s nowhere near as common as it is in F dogs.

    More than half of all intact bitches will develop mammary tumors, over their lifetimes, & 65% of those tumors will be malignant. // Of course, some of those dogs die of other causes (hit by car, contagion, heart failure, whatever) but the cancer is present, & would have killed them, if they didn’t die of something else.

    The other nasty threat to any intact F dog is pyometra, a life-threatening infection of the uterus.
    A closed Pyo which is not draining is almost symptom-free, & a bitch with Pyo can be extremely ill before she gets to the vet; an open Pyo is more likely to be noticed, b/c of the vaginal drainage, BUT bitches who are “tidy” constantly clean it away, & an owner who doesn’t know the risks & isn’t actively looking for possible Pyo can miss it completely- the dog keeps her bum clean, the owner has no idea there’s a volcano of pus ready to erupt into the body cavity. :(

    Emergency surgery for Pyometra is about as risky as surgery gets; the uterus has been transformed from a stretchy, flexible, muscular organ, to a thin fragile bag, easily crumbled, & filled with highly infectious fluid. It’s like an overstretched balloon, ready to pop, & if it ruptures during removal, all that nasty soup of microbes falls right into the open abdomen.
    The dog is already sick, & has BEEN sick for weeks; her kidneys & liver have been working hard to keep up with the toxins from the Pyo, released into her bloodstream, & she’s running a fever.
    An overwhelming infection in addition, all around her abdominal organs, is very likely to kill her in days, no matter how young she is, or how healthy she was, before.

    Cancer is strongly associated with age, but mammary cancer can strike young dogs, too, as well as aging matrons - & pyometra can affect any intact F, anytime.
    Eliminating the risk of both at one swoop is a wonderful thing. :)

    Why do U think she “needs one estrus” before her spay? -
    IME, it only complicates the spay, as U then must wait 90 days to do the spay, & if she has a split heat, a bladder infection (common in intact Fs post heat), a psueudopregnancy/ phantom, a silent heat, etc, there will be additional delays.

    She can be brought into estrus anytime after she’s 16-WO by pheromones from another estrous F, who could be a few miles off; a dog U’ve never seen could trip her hormonal trigger, & bang!, she’s off to the start of her fertile life, whatever her calendar age, & whether U are ready or not.
    :eek:

    My Akita, who was picked to be my foundation bitch, began wearing her estrus panties for practice when she was just 12-WO, for brief periods; my mother thot I was nutz, but it paid off when she started her 1st season bang-on Day 1 of her 7th month. I put them on her with zero drama, it was just another familiar routine, & she never tried to gnaw them, remove them, or rip the panty-liners. :)
    Whether she will be intact or not, U should prepare well-ahead of “need”, when it’s far simpler & then, if estrus arrives, even ahead of schedule, both of U can cope.

    - terry

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  5. Michele83

    Michele83 Member Registered

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    I will also be getting my pup spayed before her first season, as strongly advised by my vet for the reasons Terry mentioned above. It also depends on dog breed and size. Mine's a whippet and the vet said it would be fine to spay at 6 months. Near-eliminating the risk of cancer outweighs any other potential downsides for me.
     
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  6. gypsysmum2

    gypsysmum2 Well-Known Member Registered

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    You have to balance the benefits to the dog's physical health with the emotional impact of early spaying. Spaying pre first season can have a marked effect on confidence and the formation of joints etc. Ask your vet to explain all the down sides. Do tell your vet that you will spay but just want to know the best time for your dog.
    I would find somewhere for one or other of the dogs to go during the bitch's season. Is there any reason you are keeping your male dog entire? If he is a fully mature, and a confident dog, then there are fewer downsides to neutering a male and some physical benefits.
     
  7. excuseme

    excuseme Well-Known Member Registered

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    Why get a female when you already have an entire male:eek:.
    I would suggest castration of the 2yo male, and to allow the young female to grow naturally with hormones intact.
    Have you considered researching into early spaying and what long term side effect this may cause.
    I am surprised that there are any wild Dogs, Wolves, Dingo's, still in existence, having read some of the very long post by LFL.:eek:
     
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  8. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    I’m sorry, @gypsysmum2 , but I really must disagree with that. :(. I don’t want to cause bad feeling, but castigating pre-estrus spay as if it alone would cause our F dogs to grow up into crippled emotional train-wrecks is huge overstatement, & the risk of pyometra & the lifelong risk of breast cancer, IMO & IME, greatly outweigh any theoretical joint risks.

    As for the claim of emotional damage, or the usually MALE-dog-only accusation that it will “destroy her confidence”, I can only say no one has ever posted a link for a study that alleges spay (or castration) prior to 6-mos makes normal friendly pups into cowering wimps. I have worked with hundreds of dogs who were desexed pediatrically, as pups between 8 & 12-WO, & not one was changed emotionally into a shy or timid dog post-surgery.

    As a matter of fact, while working with PACC in Virginia, I frequently had whole litters of feral-born pups or half-grown dogs come into care who’d never met humans up close in their lives, & they were of course, petrified of us... they had only seen humans from a distance, & had never been fed, touched, or restrained in their lives. Their dams had reared them, & they were as wild & shy as rabbits. //. Every one of those dogs was S/N before they were listed as adoptable, often B4 I met them, & their b-mod was as straightforward & simple as it gets.
    If any dogs were going to be screwed up emotionally by desex, THEY would be the ones - but they weren’t. They went on to be adopted by average pet-owners / APOs, & were perfectly normal friendly pets, out on the street, going to Bark in the Park with hundreds of other dogs & people amid a live radio broadcast, traveling on vacation with their families... they were fine.

    Re joints:
    No statistics that i’ve seen claim “spay before 1st estrus causes damage to their joints”.
    What I HAVE seen is stats that claim there’s “an
    increased risk of very specific joint issues, associated with spaying. That’s not the same thing at all.

    A, the increase in presumed risk is quite small.
    B, association is not cause; no one said that spaying CAUSES joint problems.

    Joint issues are multifactorial; some is genetics, some is rearing / environs / experience.
    I can buy a pup from screened parents, both had excellent joints, even perfect joints - & then by overfeeding my pup, & keeping her / him on SLICK FLOORING with poor traction, & exercising her or him on hard surfaces (running on pavement, rather than turf or other natural substrates), I end up with a young dog who, despite his good breeder & his parents’ wonderful joints, has serious joint issues at an early age, which can only worsen as time goes on.
    And nobody caused this... but me. I did it.

    There are now, living in the U-S, literally millions of dogs (& cats) who were desexed as pups or kittens before 12-weeks age, & millions more died of old age who were also pediatric desex patients. It’s been done here since the early 70s by progressive shelters, & has been standard protocol for ALL shelters & rescues since about 1982 / 1985.

    If it was true that “early desex” caused joint problems, pets in the USA should have multiple times the incidence of hip & elbow dysplasia, trick knees / patellar luxation, unstable hocks, & all the rest of the limb or joint issues we could name, when compared to the U-K.
    But they don’t.
    :)


    If the premise were true, Boston, & New England in general, SHOULD be a hotspot for orthopedic vets... b/c depending upon the neighborhood & residents’ average income, 75% to 90% of New England pets are neutered, & ALL of the kittens and pups who are placed in adoptive homes here, are desexed before they are listed as adoptable/ available.

    That ought to result in a locally-high proportion of pets whose joints need surgery, medication, or minimal stress, but the fraction of pets with problem joints, here, is very similar to that of pets in the Southeast, Atlantic, Midwest, Mountain, & Desert Southwest.

    I ought to see many young dogs hobbling along the street, as I see many dogs who were clearly ped-desexed, but they walk, jog with their owners, & don’t bunny-hop or gimp. // Where are all the affected dogs? ... Where are the alarmed articles in journals & pet magazines, demanding to know why New England has so many more dogs suffering from joint pain?
    Those many, many ped-desexed dogs are here - but the suffering, crippled dogs MADE by ped-desex aren’t here. // The hypothesis doesn’t pan out in the data.

    - terry

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  9. gypsysmum2

    gypsysmum2 Well-Known Member Registered

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    There are no studies because no one wants to fund them.
    Women are not routinely offered hysterectomies when they have finished having children because the loss of hormones has a negative effect on various parts of the body.
    One season is not going to give a bitch cancer.
    It is all about common sense and balance at the end of the day.
     
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  10. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    True, ONE estrus will not result in cancer in EVERY F dog, no -
    but it increases her risk by a specific known value, greater than the alleged increased risks of “joint damage”.
    One estrus raises her risk of mammary tumors by 11%. The alleged increase in risk of joint issues from PEDIATRIC spay / neuter is approx 2%. Also bear in mind, ped-desex is S/N before 12-WO; she’s not under 3-MO. She’s already aged out of that category.

    There may not be studies about joint health & pediatric desex, @gypsysmum2 -
    But there are multiple studies about intact F dogs & breast cancer, precisely b/c it’s so common & so lethal.

    The simplest statistic is that every estrus adds 11% to an individual bitch’s risk of malignant mammary tumors.
    Another simple stat is that 50% of mammary tumors are, on pathology, malignant.

    Add to those facts that 7 of every 10 F dogs diagnosed with breast cancer are euthanized at the same appt, with lung metastases, & it should be very clear that this is a lethal disease.

    Breeders have no option but to risk it - their bitches are the future of their breeds. Pet owners have the option of virtually eliminating all risk, by proactively spaying their F dogs prior to 1st estrus.

    For more info on breast cancer & F dogs, see the Cancer Research journal at http://www.cancerres.aacrjournals.org

    Search for “Mammary Tumor Development in Dogs is Associated With BRCA1 & BRCA2”, published Nov-2009.

    If U are even slightly familiar with breast cancer in women, BRCA1 & -2 are strongly predictive of risk, & carrying both genes makes it almost inevitable that U will, at some time, develop breast tumors, plus that the cancer U get will be aggressive, develop rapidly, And metastasize quickly to remote tissues (liver, lungs, bones, brain, etc).
    Those genes were the reason Angelina Jolie opted for a double mastectomy, rather than have the Sword of Damocles over her head, hung by a hair. It was & remains a controversial choice, but she simply wanted not to worry, period. Gone entirely was better, in her opinion, than here & watchful waiting.

    - terry

    .
     
  11. Biker John

    Biker John Well-Known Member Registered

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    Sorry but your statistics are crazy, if the above is correct, every female that has 10 estrus's will have tumors, but their are many female dogs over the age of 6. So clearly that is incorrect.
     
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  12. Michele83

    Michele83 Member Registered

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    Someone who's better at maths can probably check this, but I think the stat Terry mentioned looks reasonable. If a dog starts off life with a 5% chance of tumors (for example) then by the time its had 10 estruses the risk will have increased to 14.2%. (Not 100%)

    Here's my working out (like a good maths pupil!)

    5 x 1.11 (i.e. adding 11% of 5) = 5.55
    5.55 x 1.11 = 6.16
    6.16 x 1.11 = 6.84

    etc.
     
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  13. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

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    @Michele83 is correct - at least as far as the theory goes, I haven't checked the numbers. Just as, if your risk of lung cancer doubles for every year you smoke, it means that it increases by 100% every year, but this doesn't mean you'll be dead in a year.
     
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  14. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    Thanks, @Michele83 - yes, that’s the math. :)

    As it’s illegal to desex pets in ? Norway? -or is it Sweden? -
    [EDIT: except for medical need: Pyo, anal fistula in M dogs, hypertrophic prostate, etc] —- anyway, in one or t’other of them, U cannot S/N for anything other than medical reasons, so those F dogs form a perfect population pool for statistical research.

    Using insurance & vet records for retrospective analysis, they found that by age 6, nearly 60% of intact bitches had experienced a pyometra, (some of whom died, others had emergency spays, and some were caught early and recovered with antibiotics), & IIRC, by age 8, about 1 in 5 had mammary tumors, of which half were malignant.
    That’s 10% of intact Fs by age 8, & remember, it’s aggressive & has zero to minimal symptoms B4 it has already spread to lungs or other organs.

    It’s a serious risk.
    - terry

    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
  15. excuseme

    excuseme Well-Known Member Registered

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    Just a little :eek: more information about spaying/castration from a British Vet with British views, and more figures. Maybe LFL would like to spend some time reading this, posted from our side of the water, i hope you find it interesting! :rolleyes:

    Neutering Your Dog – Making an Informed Decision
     
  16. Michele83

    Michele83 Member Registered

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    And here's the statement from the British Veterinary Association:

    "BVA believes that there is no current scientific evidence to support the view that the spaying of bitches should take place after the first season. However, at the current time there is insufficient scientific data available to form a position on the early neutering of dogs and bitches."

    "There are some reservations about spaying but most are not justified when examined more closely. Spaying may predispose to weight increase but dietary management can control this. Urinary incontinence can occasionally be associated with spaying but whether that relates to the age at which the bitch was spayed is unknown. Spaying is irreversible and a decision to spay a young bitch may be postponed by controlling her oestrus with drugs under veterinary direction. BVA believes the benefits of spaying a bitch outweigh any potential risks that are involved with the procedure."

    BVA Policy - Neutering of cats and dogs

    If only there was a definite answer. People will always want their own view to be right and they'll state it as if it's the absolute truth. But the fact is we have a situation where some vets are strongly against spaying before first season and some (like mine) are strongly for it. When you've got people who state their case as assertively as the people in excuseme's link, and then the actual BVA itself giving the opposite view....it's basically just a nightmare for those of us just trying to do the right thing.
     
  17. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

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    Indeed. And when you start digging, you'll find a host of vested interests in the research, people emphasising statistics that agree with their view and not mentioning the ones that contradict them (confirmation bias, both intentional and not), and that the tools used in the research are also in question. e.g. I know LfL doesn't regard C-BARQ as reliable, but there have been other studies on C-BARQ that conclude that it is valid, if not particularly reliable. And you could also, I'm sure, question the reliability of the studies that test the reliability of tools used in other studies... Plus some studies that, say, found no negative consequences of early/late spay might only have been looking at a limited set of outcomes, e.g. physical but not behavioural or vice versa.

    All you can do is read as much as you can, with an open mind, don't take anything for granted, particularly/even if they cite a pageful of authoritative-looking studies. And bear in mind that the plural of anecdote isn't data;) Then you make a decision to the best of your ability, confident that if there was a very clear unequivocal 'right' answer then there wouldn't be so many arguments for and against all over the internet.
     
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  18. Michele83

    Michele83 Member Registered

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    Couldn't have said it better!! :)
     
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  19. gypsysmum2

    gypsysmum2 Well-Known Member Registered

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  20. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    BTW, here in the U-S, land of the free, the decision on when or whether to S/N one’s pet may be a matter of law.

    Quite a few cities, as well as apt-complexes, HOA gated communities, counties, towns, & other authorities, now mandate that pets not intended for possible breeding, or who are not actively shown / competing in sports that require gonads, MUST be desexed ... & many of them mandate that it be done by 6-MO.

    The exceptions are medical only - risk of hemorrhage, unable to be anaesthtized, & so on. And a vet must sign off on it, U can’t just say, “my dog had a bad reaction to anaesthetic...”
    And if U claim U will be showing or competing, U better have entries - typically, they want U to show or compete by the time the dog is 12-MO, at the very least in matches if not for titles.

    As we are now a nation of lifelong renters with the odd exception of the well-off or lucky, LANDLORD POLICIES decide whether intact pets can be kept. // Many leases stipulate that any animal not kept in a self-contained environment (fish, rodents, reptiles, insects, etc) must be desexed, often before U are allowed to move in.

    With 3 to 5 MILLION “surplus” pets being killed every year in the United States, reducing the number of unintended or poorly planned or “accidentally on purpose” or deliberately bred-for-profit litters, is paramount.

    - terry

    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018

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