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Recall.... Well when I am going to loose you, maybe...

Discussion in 'Dog Behaviour and Training' started by OneSea, Oct 5, 2018.

  1. OneSea

    OneSea New Member Registered

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    Were looking for a little help, we have rescue 8 month old hound (Pointer x Beagle x terrier= ?Spanish Hound). He is a rescue from Spain and when he came to the UK at 3 months he was emaciated, yet quickly we learned he is not really food motivated.

    As an 8 month old he is cracking dog we have had him since he was 4 months old and he has very few bad habits and many good:
    • Still jumps a bit round strangers but he seems to know which ones allow/ encourage it,
    • Will sit reliably sometimes after a bit of wait (2-5 seconds),
    • Will walk at heel with minimal pulling (unless other dogs etc) he is improving (at 28kg my 11 year old can walk him and hes easier than a friends cocker she says!)
    • Will wait and stay,
    • Does not leap out of car when door opened sits calmly on journeys,
    • Leaves the open bin alone 95% of the time,
    • Won't just take food when dropped,
    • We take him sailing and he is well behaved on the boat,
    • Very good round small children or nervous adults,
    • Good if not perfect round animals and live stock,
    • Stay down stairs 90% of time without a gate,
    • Does not climb on furniture,
    I hope your thinking hes 8 months old what more do you expect. The answer is for him to come when...
    • When he thinks we are walking away/ he might lose us.
    • If he sees us (hes not to preoccupied) run away from him,
    He won't when walking him if there is something he deems more interesting a smell a person. He is not running away he just wants to smell, say hi 90% of the time you don't need to use the lead or a snack to walk him away he will just join us after a couple of calls.

    Its with other dogs he is a nightmare occasionally he will come back eventually, normally because of an older grumpy dog that does not want to play.
    He is just wanting to play with any other dog he can find and will go surprising distances before thinking about us...
    Once away from another dog we might not even need the lead to move away. Although sometimes he gets where you think it's safe and he bolts back to another dog (play full dogs normally).

    Other than for other dogs he has always come back eventually, he does not run away as such.

    He will willingly get in the car and have the lead put on him with no resistance, he does not resist (its just he does not to come to you). It does not matter if this is at the obvious beginning or end of a walk or once you have got hold of him when playing with another dog he rarely protests snacks make little difference.

    We think we are doing all the right things
    • Never scolding when he comes back,
    • Call him during walks just to treat him and fuss him,
    • Taking toys and balls,
    • Rewarding all recalls,
    • Rewarding with his favourite snacks,
    • Whenever possible if comes away from another dog (sometimes it happens!)we let him return to play if all are happy,
    We have found coming back can be encouraged by petting another dog, he is jealous.
    Our dog is just not that interested in us or a delinquent.
     
  2. Caro Perry

    Caro Perry Well-Known Member Registered

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    You are describing my Harri here!

    Recall is entirely on his terms. He'll come if it suits him. Most of the time it doesn't - he'd rather go and play with another dog, follow an interesting looking walker or try and find the source of an irresistible scent. No treat is more rewarding to him than doing what is important to him.


    He knows perfectly well what he should do but he chooses not to.

    He's now pretty permanently on a 10 metre line as he simply cannot be trusted ( he's 14 months old).
     
  3. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    .

    @OneSea , a dog without reliable recall cannot be allowed off leash, unless s/he is inside a fenced, secure area. :(

    The reason for this apparently draconian rule is that EVERY TIME the dog ignores a recall & continues to sniff / play / wander, or worse yet, takes off in pursuit of someone or something, THEY BECOME EVEN MORE LIKELY to ignore a recall, or to bolt off when called.
    It’s just like any other behavior: if U don’t want it, U cannot allow the dog to rehearse it. Practice makes perfect, & setting the dog up to practice undesired behaviors is shooting oneself in the foot.

    U must manage the dog so that U eliminate any opportunity to do that undesired behavior, which in this instance means keeping him on a front-clipped Y-harness, as mentioned above by @Caro Perry .

    Any Y-harness that fits the dog well will do, U don’t need a high-priced brand name or a special model, any sturdy harness is fine. It should adjust in at least 3 places, & 5 adjustments is optimal (buckles or slides).
    A long-line clipped to the dog’s chest will allow plenty of running room, if U can find open space to give him the radius he needs. Underbrush, landscaped plantings (shrubs, flowers, herbs, a specimen trees...), road signs, etc, will all provide opps to get snagged or tangled.

    If space is limited, U can always deploy the dog to the more-open side, & if he crosses ahead of U (or behind) to reach the congested side, just reel him in, & send him back to the more open, less cluttered side. // Eventually, after umpteen bazillion repetitions, he will grasp the concept, & will stay on the less cluttered, more spacious side.

    Dogs aren’t stoopid, they’re very intelligent, but unlike humans, they are very SLOW to generalize. (Humans are IMO far too quick to generalize, & yes, I include myself. It’s a flaw.)
    Dogs will notice all kinds of possibly-salient differences between events that WE see as “the same” or at least, as largely Similar if not identical. B/c dogs cannot be sure exactly what differences are salient, & which other variants can be safely ignored, they treat everything as salient until proven otherwise.
    That means loads & loads & loads of repetitions. THEN, dogs can generalize, or at least begin to generalize. :)


    Be consistent, keep him on a longline or a drag line when outside a fence, practice recall only when inside a fence or on a long line, & proof, proof, proof him. :)
    U will get there.

    - terry

    .
     
  4. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

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    It sounds to me as if he's doing very well for his age, and responding to your recall most of the time. He's an adolescent, a time at which dogs are going to feel more independent and often find playing with other dogs incredibly exciting.

    Personally, if he's only ignoring recall when he's playing with other dogs, if he is playing nicely with them and not bullying, being rough, or getting too worked up, and if he isn't likely to disappear over a road, I wouldn't keep him on a long line and deprive him of the fun of play. You could try a drag line attached to a harness, though sometimes they can get in a tangle.

    I wouldn't use my standard recall command while he was playing if he was likely to ignore it - I quite like having a couple (or more) recall cues, one that I only use when I'm 99% sure that my dog will respond, and one which is really the equivalent of 'I'd quite like you to come over here now'. Then if he ignores the second one you're not teaching him that he can ignore your MAIN cue. I often find that the second command still works well, possibly in part because it doesn't put pressure on the dog.

    I wouldn't expect him to notice if you walk or run off without saying anything. I would regard this as a sign that he feels confident and secure - you don't want your dog to worry about being abandoned.

    This is just my opinion, based on my experience - I simply wouldn't expect perfect recall in an 8-month-old dog and wouldn't want to deprive him of the fun of being off lead if the risk of him harming himself or another dog is very low. My dog's recall continued to improve as he matured despite having this freedom (though we did go through a phase when he had to stay on lead as he was bullying other dogs).
     
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  5. OneSea

    OneSea New Member Registered

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    There in lies the challenge, when we had him on harness he was becoming unmanageable on the lead. The dog trainer we have seen recommend a slip lead and he quickly walked at heel with slack lead.
    He is now 28 kg and if he decides to bolt on a long leash he would put the person on the other end the deck. Plus finding the ground you describe without people of hazards is challenging.

    As it is people we meet on walks are seeing some improvement, we live with him so it's hard to see. When we have a walk when he is on the lead due to hazards his energy levels become excessive.

    If he gets his 20 minutes off the lead morning and night he is fine, if we take him to newnew pla his recall improves even if it is on his terms.

    Sounds like we are doing the right thing except letting him off the lead...
     
  6. Mad Murphy

    Mad Murphy Well-Known Member Registered

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    Sounds like he is doing really well.. Remember beagles are just noses on legs so the beagle in your dog will want to sniff and follow the scent above all else but if you carry on working with him as youre doing you should be able to get a solid if not 100% perfect recall.
     
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  7. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

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    It's a balance - the risks of letting him off when he won't come back, versus the risks of not giving him the exercise/freedom he needs and becoming more delinquent that way. Adolescence in dogs can be a trying time and one where you should expect to see a little backtracking on training & behaviour.

    You could try scenting games on walks to tap into his natural behaviour and use up some of his mental energy - have a search on the internet for ideas. Also investigate different types of long line/harness combos that might make it easier/safer for you - have you tried a front clip one? (Never attach a long line to a collar, as it could cause injuries if he did take off.)
     
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  8. Caro Perry

    Caro Perry Well-Known Member Registered

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    The risk here is if he rushes up to a reactive dog. For his own safety you need to be able to get him back. This is the main reason I now let Harri loose very rarely. I have tried putting him on a lead whenever I spot another dog but that does rely on me being within grabbing distance of him when HE spots the dog and is far from foolproof. Although we walk in very quiet areas I have been caught out and we've had a couple of very close calls and Harri has come very close to being badly bitten.
     
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  9. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

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    I absolutely understand where you're coming from, and it's very much a personal view based on my experiences. However, I am lucky in that just about all the dogs I meet are either lovely or well managed, and my dog is excellent about only introducing himself to non-reactive dogs. And, I suppose, he's fast enough to run away. In the last going on 9 years, he's only had one instance where a dog 'properly' turned on him (bruising, no skin breakage), and she switched from nice greetings to biting an armpit in an instant - the result would have been the same if he'd been on lead and allowed the nice greeting. And he's also a type of dog which loves to run, and where training recall is a long hard slog. Plus he finds enclosed fields really boring.

    When he was younger, if he had to stay on lead the whole time because of an injury, he would be absolutely wild and unbearable after a few days, and be throwing tantrums left, right and centre - no state of mind to be learning 'perfect recall' in.

    I have always put him on lead when I've seen another dog on lead, though, or a dog that has a 'look' that suggests he won't like them (young, confident, cocky dog with a bit of a strut, possibly entire) - this hasn't usually been a problem as long as I'm observant and prompt.

    Also, as most of the dogs round here are lovely, people tend to be very lax about letting them interact and about training perfect recall, and if a young bouncy dog comes up to J, it tends to go a lot better if J is off lead.

    So it's very much a case of your mileage will vary. I'm not saying that you're wrong and I'm right - this is very much based on my situation. It's up to individuals to consider both sides of the coin and decide whether they can live with giving their dog a degree of freedom when they don't (yet) have perfect recall. If anyone thinks that I'm irresponsible, really, I can live with that :)
     
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  10. OneSea

    OneSea New Member Registered

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    Thats is the challenge, so far he has always done the right thing when he has met a dog with attitude. Keep away and head to safety, and its normally back towards us a successful recall:D

    Owners who chastise their dog for being grizzly I end up reassuring them their dog is doing what is the right thing for everyone. I often starting by saying to my dog "if you carry on doing that you will get bitten and you will deserve it". We believe he was taken away from his mum a little young there are various clues one being initially he could not tell the difference between play and attitude he is improving.

    The other problem is the dog owners, normally with there dogs on the lead or out for a jog who keep running or turn and walk away from us! 95% realise hes a playful puppy enjoy watching the dogs play wait and let us catch up. The ones that walk away really undo the recall training.

    We have learned to avoid certain high density dog areas (often with suitable places for long leads) as we tend to meet the worst behaved dogs who again undo training.

    My understanding is 99% of dogs off the lead will not harm each other without reason, ie as long as one becomes submissive or runs away tail between his legs. Most will stop its dogs on leads that seem to hurt each other or the aggressive dog of the lead because no one is around, which we all fear.
     
  11. Caro Perry

    Caro Perry Well-Known Member Registered

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    Now this would be me. I'd turn and walk away from your puppy. We're working with a behaviourist to try and get Harri more dog neutral and part of that is that he only gets the reward of an interaction if he looks at me and gains permission to say hello.

    Loose dogs running up to him really make this hard and undoes MY training!!
     
  12. Flobo

    Flobo Well-Known Member Registered Partner

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    It is really hard if you walk a 'special' dog! In an ideal world all dog owners would be responsible, observant, aware of others and on the ball, and all dogs would have perfect recall, but unfortunately that's not the case... aswell as the fact that all our dogs are also individuals with their own thing going on. Your boy sounds like he's doing great, he is 8 months, finding his feet and full of it, you are aware of his issues with recall and are working on it, keep at it, he is at that age where he is not a pup and not yet an adult, work with the knowledge of the cross he is too and know that his instincts will sometimes over rule your recall maybe, even into adulthood. It is not personal if he doesn't come when you call him, you are his family/pack absolutely, he is just distracted sometimes!!
     
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  13. Mad Murphy

    Mad Murphy Well-Known Member Registered

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    *The other problem is the dog owners, normally with there dogs on the lead or out for a jog who keep running or turn and walk away from us! 95% realise hes a playful puppy enjoy watching the dogs play wait and let us catch up. The ones that walk away really undo the recall training.

    My understanding is 99% of dogs off the lead will not harm each other without reason, ie as long as one becomes submissive or runs away tail between his legs. Most will stop its dogs on leads that seem to hurt each other or the aggressive dog of the lead because no one is around, which we all fear.*

    Can I just point out the 'oh hes only playing ' is a cry that 99% of dog owners dread? If an owner is walking on and their dog is on a lead they are NOT the problem. You cant tell why a dog is on lead it could be reactive it could be ill or infirm it could be contagious (these dogs also have to go out) it could be following a training regime. When my BC hurt his back we didnt know if he would ever gain the strength to walk un-aided again. A playful puppy jumping on him could have ended his life so yes we walked away from any off lead dog. When Benny went blind we were careful about unknown bouncy dogs. We do have set areas where dogs can be on or off lead but there are always people who ignore the signs.

    As for your second point in law the fact is that if an off lead dog approaches and is bitten its the off lead dog most likely to be deemed out of control. In my experience an on lead dog cant do damage as long as the owners keep hold of the lead so I cant see how an lead dogs would be hurting each other, the problem comes when off lead dogs are allowed to run over to an on lead dog and invade its personal space, and why should every on lead dog have to be submissive to every off lead social butterfly?

    Its great if dogs can be off lead and run about together but your dog also needs to respect the space an on lead dog needs. Work on that recall and respect others rights to remove themselves and their dogs from yours. Its not their job to make sure you get your dog back its yours.
     
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  14. OneSea

    OneSea New Member Registered

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    Lets just clarify some things here "why should every on lead dog have to be submissive to every off lead social butterfly?"
    As I stated earlier I often starting by saying to my dog "if you carry on doing that you will get bitten and you will deserve it" I fully respect that if my dog runs over to another dog any attack is our fault.
    As it is dogs due to keeping puppy socialised any dog that advises my dog hes not unwanted he leaves alone. I feel for the dogs that do this as many owners chastise there dog for doing the right thing by them, a growl, a bark I am a grumpy old man and our puppy backs off even to much smaller dogs.

    "In my experience an on lead dog cant do damage as long as the owners keep hold of the lead so I cant see how an lead dogs would be hurting each other"
    An unlucky meet on a corner with a dog on long lead and our pickagnese at heel on short lead, result our family dog been thrown around like a rat. With me having to extract our dog from a larger dogs mouth, previously when off lead our Pickagnese had enough sense to run away due to being on the lead he had no chance. We used the lead allot less after that.
    Dogs on leads can and do fight often with more aggression as they are protecting owner, cannot run away etc.

    If we meet another dog on the lead we always attempt to get ours on the lead, the problem is people walking round corners from behind bushes etc that we cannot always predict.

    "Its not their job to make sure you get your dog back its yours." Fully agree but if their dog is busy playing with our puppy they call their dog away and ours runs with it a little assistance goes a long way to resolving the situation. Certainly once we get the recall sorted as I have had with previous dogs I will continue to help get there dogs back to their owners.

    I live on the edge of the New Forest and know the importance of a good recall and well socialised dog. Presently we seem to have the socialisation going in the right direction, yesterday he was described as a gentle giant by some one with much smaller dog.
    Sadly the recall is not where we want it but he is 8 months old only interested in playing with other dogs, thinks the world is his friend and never shown any aggression to other dogs or people.

    I came on here to ask advise on how to improve the recall, if your solution is to keep the dog on the lead I am not certain that is the correct advice...
     
  15. Josie

    Josie Administrator Administrator Registered

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    Welcome @OneSea - I have a 10 year old lab who sticks by my side so I don’t have much helpful advice I’m afraid! But... you said he wasn’t a foodie, does he enjoy a ball or a cuddly toy?? Would a good squeak be enough to tempt him back?
     
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  16. Caro Perry

    Caro Perry Well-Known Member Registered

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    Sadly dogs don't understand English well enough to know what "if you carry on doing that you will get bitten and you will deserve it" means.

    In public places a dog with poor recall should be kept on a lead for its own safety. Not all reactive dogs will give a warning and puppies can be annoyingly persistent. In the UK now a couple of complaints about your dog being out of control ( which he legally would be) can lead to the dog being put down.

    I would love to allow Harri to run free - he loves playing with other dogs but at the moment that can only happen in a few safe enclosed spaces.
     
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  17. Mad Murphy

    Mad Murphy Well-Known Member Registered

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    I came on here to ask advise on how to improve the recall, if your solution is to keep the dog on the lead I am not certain that is the correct advice...

    No my solution was to keep practising. But dont always expect other people to accomodate your dog they also have their way of doing things so you cant expect people or other dogs to move over for you.

    As I mentioned we have clearly designated on /off lead areas and when people abide by the rules there is no problem , the danger is when people do as they please.

    Im glad to hear you would accept responsibilty but many owners wont and the owner of the dog who has done the biting may well decide to rehome or have their dog PTS after a bite incident are you also taking responibilty for that?
    Practice practice practice and when your dog has its recall sorted then let it loose.

    Sorry you didnt like my answer but thats MY experience of off lead dogs running over and bouncing on my dogs who for various reasons could not be off lead. Dogs who dont listen dont get much respect from me because protecting my dogs comes first in my book.
     
  18. OneSea

    OneSea New Member Registered

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    I know my dog does not understand english enough to understand he will get bitten but I hope the other dog owner will.

    We have again tried walking on long lead, and to be honest he learned nothing and got no real exercise. When we got to relatively safe area we let him off and he would not come back to the me carrying the long lead :/
    He would to my other on his own terms but still well enough not to disturb the forest ponies or cowes.

    In the open saw other dog owners and horse riders take large detours to avoid the "problem dog" on long lead.

    We will keep practicing recall, doing what we can we think its is slowly improving. Exercising at times and in areas where the chances of meeting unknown dogs are minimal or we know hes going to meet friendly dogs. We get him on the lead (meaning achieving some sort of recall) for probably 50% of the dogs we see/ meet (not counting those we have already predicted meaning he's already on the lead). Most of the owners round here have met our puppy, many are pleased to meet him knowing there dog has safe buddy to play with.

    Yes we have tried squeaky toys, throwing a ball/ frisby to distract him, changing treats to keep them interesting/ attractive.

    I have strict rule when he is on pontoons on or around the boat that he is not leashed (he does wear a life jacket) because if he falls in (he has twice so far), the lead can easily be tangled snaring the dog in the water :eek:
    On the pontoons and round the boat his recall is normally pretty good, maybe we should only walk him on the Marina's :D :D

    Training a dog (particularly a rescue) is never going to be an easy thing and it seems when it comes to recall we have a challenge...
     
  19. Rhythmpig

    Rhythmpig Member Registered

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    Your young dog sounds like he's coming along nicely. I know dogs who are years older than yours and they don't do half of the stuff yours is doing.
    Just remember what's in his locker,three good working breeds. His sensors will be in overdrive when you go out. I've had terriers just about all my life. When we go out,its me who's doing the walking,they have all been hunting 85% of the time and 15% sent marking. That's working breeds for you,it's in thier makeup ,just like it will be in yours. You've just got to learn which buttons to press to manage different situations. Some are sensitive,and some you have to be firm with them. But remember being firm doesn't mean being physical, voice tone always plays a massive part in any training I give my dogs. A certain tone I use will indicate that I mean business and it usually means my dogs do as I ask them. If not,it's back to basics even with older dogs which usually does the trick. Keep working on him,he will get there,but remember he's still a young dog.
    All the best.
     

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