Rules Regarding Photo Finish's

[Vicky]

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After much consideration after events at the weekend, i feel i must now speak up.

I’ve weighed up the personal pro’s & con’s of posting this and concluded that i owe it to my fellow racers to put something in writing to hopefully stop anyone being in the frame of mind i was on the drive home.

Those who raced at the Tom Jones will know of the situation, those that weren’t there might not be bothered but i’ll outline it anyway as it effects anyone racing.

Our dog’s race was announced as being a photo finish, and i have to say now in all the years i’ve been racing i’ve never questioned a photo finish of my dog, i have always accepted the judges decision, however on this occasion the photo was announced as a dead heat and the picture was transmitted onto the big screen in the bar. At which point 4 people approached Mark (who at this point was coming off with our dog) to say it was clear our dog won the race by a nose, i believe there were also more people in the bar who made their feelings known. As any other owner in this position would, Mark went up to look at the photo on the laptop, again it was clear who won, the Clerk of the Course agreed our dog won, as did the cameraman who held his hands up to his mistake, there was also 2 other people in the box that agreed there was a winner by the time i went up to see. At this point the Clerk of the Course (who wasn't originally in the box) announced our dog the winner, which resulted in two people (that i know of) putting in a complaint that the decision had been called and according to BWRA rules the result of dead heat must stand. Which is the reason for my post.

ALL members should take the time to read their rule books and know where they stand in such situations – the only rules i know of and can find that could be enforced in a situation like this are the following:

*Relating to straight racing - Two line judges shall be appointed. Judges are not allowed to confer. In the event of the Line judges failing to agree, a majority decision cannot be obtained, the whippets concerned shall re-run.

This was not the case in this instance, the photographic evidence was enough proof of the result.

*Any complaint must be lodged before the completion (i.e. the announcement of the result) of the following race, or after an equivalent period of time.

Our complaint to the Clerk of the course for the decision called out by the OFFICIAL was lodged well before any further races.

*Where a complaint relates to the Clerk of the Courses’ decision at a race meeting, and is upheld, the result of the race shall not be altered. However the principle so established shall be published and may be incorporated in subsequent Rules Revision.

The Clerk of the Course agreed our dog won the race, as i said above she announced our dog the winner however i feel because someone approached her stating incorrect “rules” this influenced her decision to revert back to the orginal incorrect result as she didn’t have a copy of the rule book on her.

I will not embarrass the people concerned by adding a copy of the photo finish however i have stills of the photo for anyone wishing to see them i will email them.

We appreciate all the support people have given us as well as the Clerk of the Course on the day who took the time to come and apologise.

As such i will be putting a letter in writing to the secretary of both governing bodies relating to photo finish results. Hopefully these will be outlined in future rules books.

I am not asking people to reply with their opinions and those that know me & Mark know we are not bad losers nor do we need to win but i am URGING ALL RACERS TO BE FULLY AWARE OF THE RULES RELATING TO THE EVENT YOU ARE RACING AT.

 

[rob67]

One thing most people racing dont do Vicky is check the rules and keep up to date with them. Think your last statement is right. We should all be aware of, and be prepared to race by the rule book, whichever organisation it is. :thumbsup:

chris

 

[marielou]

Well said Vicky. Most people are the same about rule books as they are about instructions with a new appliance, they only read it when it goes wrong. Yours are very wise words.

 

[stuart worcs]

surely the result should have been allowed to stand

if a winner was found after checking again

last season @ wolverhampton horse racing a judge gave a dead heat

after checking result was put right after 20 minutes(i know it cost us a bomb)

that race was for thousands of ££££s

photo finishes technology do we need it?? makes you wonder?

why have it if its not going to be used properly

 

[Trojan]

I have to say that we all at some point possibly disagree with the judges decision

(i know i have on occasions) and have also been on the other end when being a judge have had the odd person feel that my decision was not how they had seen the race finish, that is all well and good when it is the naked eye and the decision is made in a split second as the judge sees it, if we appoint someone to do the unenviable task of judging we should, or have to stick to their decisions.

When there is photographic evidence and a winner can clearly be seen i cannot see that the judges decision or announcement should be final. 'Proof' should surely overide an error in an announcement. We also talk so much about 'sportsmanship' is the biggest part of sportsmanship accepting defeat. I would not want to run in a final if i had seen proof that my dog had run a brilliant race but finished second, i would go home feeling proud that my dog had run the winner of the race to such a close finish and would be waiting till the next time we met to try and overturn the result

If we are lucky enough to have the use of a photo finish lets use it as it should be used, maybe owners of the dogs concerned should be called to view the photo before the announcement is made :thumbsup:

 

[DavidH]

surely both party should be able to view photo,and agree on the out come?????

if you complaind prior to the next race,and the clerk of the coarse confirmed you won,whats gone wrong the right decision must stand ,would think its water under the bridge now :- "

a few year ago we where done out of a title by a bad decsion,didnt realize until we got the dvd roddy won by a clear head as you could slow it down to frame to frame as he finished that hard over the last few yards it was missed

if there isnt a camera on the straight the judges decision stands.

 

[halloween]

Vicky, i tried to send a p.m. am i blocked or is your message box full?

If you could pm your phone no i would like to speak to you or at saturdays racing

 

[milly]

After much consideration after events at the weekend, i feel i must now speak up.I’ve weighed up the personal pro’s & con’s of posting this and concluded that i owe it to my fellow racers to put something in writing to hopefully stop anyone being in the frame of mind i was on the drive home.

Those who raced at the Bob Burke will know of the situation, those that weren’t there might not be bothered but i’ll outline it anyway as it effects anyone racing.

Our dog’s race was announced as being a photo finish, and i have to say now in all the years i’ve been racing i’ve never questioned  a photo finish of my dog, i have always accepted the judges decision, however on this occasion the photo was announced as a dead heat and the picture was transmitted onto the big screen in the bar.  At which point 4 people approached Mark (who at this point was coming off with our dog) to say it was clear our dog won the race by a nose, i believe there were also more people in the bar who made their feelings known.  As any other owner in this position would, Mark went up to look at the photo on the laptop, again it was clear who won, the Clerk of the Course agreed our dog won, as did the cameraman who held his hands up to his mistake, there was also 2 other people in the box that agreed there was a winner by the time i went up to see.  At this point the Clerk of the Course (who wasn't originally in the box) announced our dog the winner, which resulted in two people (that i know of) putting in a complaint that the decision had been called and according to BWRA rules the result of dead heat must stand.  Which is the reason for my post.

ALL members should take the time to read their rule books and know where they stand in such situations – the only rules i know of and can find that could be enforced in a situation like this are the following:

*Relating to straight racing - Two line judges shall be appointed. Judges are not allowed to confer. In the event of the Line judges failing to agree, a majority decision cannot be obtained, the whippets concerned shall re-run.

This was not the case in this instance, the photographic evidence was enough proof of the result.

*Any complaint must be lodged before the completion (i.e. the announcement of the result) of the following race, or after an equivalent period of time.

Our complaint to the Clerk of the course for the decision called out by the OFFICIAL was lodged well before any further races.

*Where a complaint relates to the Clerk of the Courses’ decision at a race meeting, and is upheld, the result of the race shall not be altered. However the principle so established shall be published and may be incorporated in subsequent Rules Revision.

The Clerk of the Course agreed our dog won the race, as i said above she announced our dog the winner however i feel because someone approached her stating incorrect “rules” this influenced her decision to revert back to the orginal incorrect result as she didn’t have a copy of the rule book on her.

I will not embarrass the people concerned by adding a copy of the photo finish however i have stills of the photo for anyone wishing to see them i will email them.

We appreciate all the support people have given us as well as the Clerk of the Course on the day who took the time to come and apologise.

As such i will be putting a letter in writing to the secretary of both governing bodies relating to photo finish results.  Hopefully these will be outlined in future rules books.

I am not asking people to reply with their opinions and those that know me & Mark know we are not bad losers nor do we need to win but i am URGING ALL RACERS TO BE FULLY AWARE OF THE RULES RELATING TO THE EVENT YOU ARE RACING AT.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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This is absolutely right, someone did come to the box and say that result should stand because its in the rule book.

 

[Karen-Coral]

Quote ----

The Clerk of the Course agreed our dog won the race, as i said above she announced our dog the winner however i feel because someone approached her stating incorrect “rules” this influenced her decision to revert back to the orginal incorrect result as she didn’t have a copy of the rule book on her.

This is all to often the case ---and on many of these occassions comes down to who can shout the loudest!!!!

not enough of the old pal (((( COMMON ????--SENSE)))))---

We have had this happen as i am sure most racers have and if you dont make your feelings known your wrong ----and if you do ----your a trouble maker who just needs to win ---VERY SAD INDEED!

Absolutely no excuse for bad/wrong decisions when photos are available

if its a win ---call it

if it a dead heat -re-run

if you cant---- get someone who can ---that simple

steve

i would like you to email me pics please Vicky

 

[Paws123]

When the 1 st decision for a dead heat was given who was judging and was the camera not used then ?

Only asking as i was watching that race and knew it was very close ..

We did leave how ever very shortly after , as Vicky was going up the judges box

I never judge racers as i admit i am possible the worst judge walking ... :lol:

 

[Paws123]

Vicky,Nov 20 2008, 10:32 PM

As such i will be putting a letter in writing to the secretary of both governing bodies relating to photo finish results.  Hopefully these will be outlined in future rules books.

Some of the NNWRF rules are been looked into at present Vicky, and the committee have a meeting tomorrow morning last one of the year , one of the agenda's is our rules for 2009 , so if you wanted to possible email your letter over to john today it will get discussed :thumb sup:

No problem if its a bit quick for you to send it ...but new rules books will need printing for next years cards

 

[Vicky]

Vicky, i tried to send a p.m. am i blocked or is your message box full?If you could pm your phone no  i would like to speak to you or at saturdays racing

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I've emptied my inbox now :thumbsup:

When the 1 st decision for a dead heat was given who was judging and was the camera not used then ?

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The cameraman at first glance announced dead heat, the person on the mike didn't look at the picture. The only thing i can thing why at first glance it could have looked like a dead heat is because of the black on Jude's face, the other few inches of white muzzle were perhaps missed but were clearly noticable on further inspection and when the two noses were marked with pen on the screen.

Some of the NNWRF rules are been looked into at  present Vicky, and the committee have a meeting tomorrow morning last one of the year , one of the agenda's is our rules for 2009 , so if you wanted to possible email your letter over to john today it will get discussed  :thumb sup:No problem if its a bit quick for you to send it ...but new rules books will need printing for next years cards

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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I'll get it emailed over asap.

 

[milly]

I was stood outside near the finish line, and at first glance I thought the dog in the black jacket just managed to hold on to win, but it was a very close race, and it did need the camera to split the dogs.

I can see why a dead heat was called at first, but when you looked closer the dog in the black jacket just had the edge. I M O

 

[sherry]

I have to say that we all at some point possibly disagree with the judges decision (i know i have on occasions) and have also been on the other end when being a judge have had the odd person feel that my decision was not how they had seen the race finish, that is all well and good when it is the naked eye and the decision is made in a split second as the judge sees it, if we appoint someone to do the unenviable task of judging we should, or have to stick to their decisions.

When there is photographic evidence and a winner can clearly be seen i cannot see that the judges decision or announcement should be final.  'Proof' should surely overide an error in an announcement.  We also talk so much about 'sportsmanship' is the biggest part of sportsmanship accepting defeat.  I would not want to run in a final if i had seen proof that my dog had run a brilliant race but finished second, i would go home feeling proud that my dog had run the winner of the race to such a close finish and would be waiting till the next time we met to try and overturn the result

If we are lucky enough to have the use of a photo finish lets use it as it should be used, maybe owners of the dogs concerned should be called to view the photo before the announcement is made  :thumbsup:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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very interesting topic and a very good answer from karen :thumbsup: will b reading my rules books very carefully now

 

[halloween]

O.K. Lets put a few things straight. I have no interest on who won or who didn't

I hope i am friends with both parties concerned and i can assure you that i am a very fair and honest person. I was stood directly on the winning line and i saw the following, as the dogs approached the line it was neck and neck the lead was being swapped on the nod. Just before the line Primus had the call , on the line i couldn't split them, just after the line i think maid your point had the decision.

I looked at the photo and yes -maid your point was in front by a nose , but on the photo the dogs heads were past the line. I did ask if the image could be took back to the line and i was told no.

(you know this Geoff you agreed with me at the time.) For me the right choice was a dead heat .

If i am wrong then you have my sincere apologies, i would not want to lose your friendship over this.

 

[Paws123]

O.K. Lets put a few things straight. I have no interest on who won or who didn'tI hope i am friends with both parties concerned and i can assure you that i am a very fair and honest person.  I was stood directly on the winning line and i saw the following, as the dogs approached the line it was neck and neck the lead was being swapped on the nod. Just before the line Primus had the call , on the line i couldn't split them, just after the line i think maid your point had the decision.

I looked at the photo and yes -maid your point was in front by a nose , but on the photo the dogs heads were past the line. I did ask if the image could be took back to the line and i was told no.

(you know this Geoff you agreed with me at the time.)  For me the right choice was a dead heat .

If i am wrong then you have my sincere apologies, i would not want to lose your friendship over this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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Think its to do with frame rate per sec ...but not sure of the right tec's teams

 

[milly]

O.K. Lets put a few things straight. I have no interest on who won or who didn'tI hope i am friends with both parties concerned and i can assure you that i am a very fair and honest person.  I was stood directly on the winning line and i saw the following, as the dogs approached the line it was neck and neck the lead was being swapped on the nod. Just before the line Primus had the call , on the line i couldn't split them, just after the line i think maid your point had the decision.

I looked at the photo and yes -maid your point was in front by a nose , but on the photo the dogs heads were past the line. I did ask if the image could be took back to the line and i was told no.

(you know this Geoff you agreed with me at the time.)  For me the right choice was a dead heat .

If i am wrong then you have my sincere apologies, i would not want to lose your friendship over this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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The only thing I agreed with you about Gordon, was your statement regarding the rule book, and you stated that a decision couldn't be over-ruled once the result had been announced.

I didn't have a rule book on me, so I took your word for it.

I don't want to fall out with you either, but thats how I remember it.

Geoff

 

[dart]

PHOTOS CAN CAUSE PROBLEMS SOME TIME VICKY I LOOK BACK AT RACE THINK IT WAS LATE 90,s AT THE CHAMPIONSHIPS I OWNER A BITCH BY THE NAME OF MISTY MORN SISTER TO JOLSON SHE WON HER FIRST HEAT AND WAS IN THE STRAIGHT CHAMPION FINAL WITH A BITCH CALLED BLACK ON WHITE OWNER BY MICK BURGRESS THEY CAME TO LINE HEAD TO HEAD BUT AS THEY WENT PASSED DECSION WAS PUT UP AS BLACK ON WHITE HAD WON IT. SO I THOUGHT SHE RAN WELL BUT THAT HOW IT GOES THEN BY MIDDLE BROTHER CAME TO ME SAID HOW THEY GOT A DECSION HE DIDN;T NO BECAUSE IT WAS CLOSE SO ASK TO LOOK AT THE PHOTO I THOUGHT MISTY MORN HAD JUST WON SO IT CAUSE A LOT OF PROBLEM BETWEEN THE TWO OWNERS AT THE TIME SO LATE ON I GOT THE PHOTO BLOW UP AND YOU COULD SEE THAT MISTY MORN HAD WON TITLE BUT WAS NEVER GIVE IT I WAS SICK TO FEEL I BEEN CHEATED AT THE TIME. BUT GOOD NEWS I HAD LOT OF WORK AT TIME LET HER GO TO LAD IN WALES TO RACE HER AND SHE WON A TITLE LATE SO I WAS PLEASE FOR THE LAD AND THE BITCH SHE WAS A CRACKING BITCH I PAYED BRAIN WHO OWNED JOLSON £30 FOR HER AS A PUP BECAUSE SHE WAS THE SLOWER HAS A PUP SO I NO WHAT YOU FEEL LIKE VICKY AND MARK SO HOPE IT NEVER HAPPENS AT A CHAMPIONSHIPS TO YOU I NO YOUR GOOD SPORT CREDIT TO WHIPPET RACING HOPE YOU GET THE RULE PUT RIGHT FOR FUTURE RACERS. BEST OF LUCK. :thumbsup:

 

[kenny m]

how much was this race for ? (w00t)

 

[sherry]

how much was this race for ? (w00t)

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kenny i dont think it wud matter if it was for one pence or 1000 pound if it was a wrong desicion its not very fair.