Tail Docking

[dawn]

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Just watched a peice on GMTV about banning tail docking.. Seems like now Crufts has come round again they are determined to bring up these controversial issues!

How many of the people who text in actually know the full facts about the breeds concerned. Not many I bet they just seem to think of this as mutilating the dog and dont see the full picture of the damaged tail after a working injury. How long befroe we get onto the dewclaws issue this week??

Sorry off my soap box now!

 

[Mark Roberts]

what do you expect on GMTV

 

[talisman]

Hi

Dont get me started on this subject. As my other breed is Jack Russells I feel really strongly about the docking issue. I am so fed up hearing how it is mutalation ect from people who dont know what they are talking about. If they had actually seen the procedure done then they can comment but until they do :rant: better not say to much in case I get chucked of lol

My last litter,the pups screamed more when the vet checked their mouths than they did losing their tails. And that was more annoyance they had been woken up than pain.

Wendy

 

[Alex Delarge]

I can understand getting dew claws removed, I can understand a dogs tail being docked - but there is absolutly no need for the tail being docked on a pet. Fact is it's mainly down to tradition & asthetics - you can't argue that. It doesn't matter if the dog suffers pain or doesn't feel a thing. Like I said there are circumastances for it being done on a working dog. But people who dock their pets tails have no basis for an argument. Now go on and tell me why this is wrong & that I don't understand, I'm interested to know if there are any REAL reasons for it. :blink:

 

[Alex Delarge]

My dad had his leg amputated due to having cancer, now he doesn't have much pain from the amputation, but he does have phantom pain occasionally. This is very sore for him and I can see him in quite a bit of discomfort. Like I said it happens like mabye once a month or whatever. It happens because his brain thinks his leg is still there and his cut nerve endings signal a problem. This happens to almost all amputees, whether it's their finger, leg or arm. How do you know if your dog suffers in the same way? You don't. A dog can signal very very painful things by whining. But it wont tell you of a discomfort that lasts only a few minutes. Another problem my dad has is his nerves continued to grow to his stump and actually penetrated through his skin - this again is common. Some cases are less painful than others, and sometimes it doesn't happen. But it makes the skin very hypersensative & more painful to touch. Again this is a discomfort, not a jagged blown out pain.

My dog is 11 now and he wasn't as active as he was before, he was still very happy though, so we just put this down to old age. We took him to the vets as he started having a skin condition at the same time, this seemed to reduce his activity even more, after loads of tests with nothing found the vet gave him pain killers. BANG!!! Back to his usual self, but he SEEMED happy enough?

Fact is he was in discomfort, not enough for him to whine when his arthitic back legs were touched or when he was out for a walk, he looked steady when he walked & just seemed like age was catching up to him.

What I'm saying is there is NO WAY any human being can say - the dog suffers no pain before, during or years & years after having it's tail docked. FACT.

I hope I didn't waste my time in typing all this up - remember what I said before tails should be docked in some circumstances, but NOT for tradition and certainly NOT for asthetics.

 

[quintessence]

I can understand the possibility of working dogs injuring their tails but wonder just how many of them actually do. I have no experience of terriers so cannot comment on how much of a problem it is, and would bow to those with a greater knowledge, but docking dogs tails has always troubled me. I have never owned a breed with a docked tail but I have often wondered why we need to dock the tails of many breeds in this country, eg. The Poodle.

I can understand this issue causing an outcry from the general public because as I have said previously it troubles me.

I just find it difficult to understand why if dogs were born with tails we feel the need to remove them on selected breeds.

Jenny

 

[foxway]

My dad had his leg amputated due to having cancer, now he doesn't have much pain from the amputation, but he does have phantom pain occasionally. This is very sore for him and I can see him in quite a bit of discomfort. Like I said it happens like mabye once a month or whatever. It happens because his brain thinks his leg is still there and his cut nerve endings signal a problem. This happens to almost all amputees, whether it's their finger, leg or arm. How do you know if your dog suffers in the same way? You don't. A dog can signal very very painful things by whining. But it wont tell you of a discomfort that lasts only a few minutes. Another problem my dad has is his nerves continued to grow to his stump and actually penetrated through his skin - this again is common. Some cases are less painful than others, and sometimes it doesn't happen. But it makes the skin very hypersensative & more painful to touch. Again this is a discomfort, not a jagged blown out pain.   My dog is 11 now and he wasn't as active as he was before, he was still very happy though, so we just put this down to old age. We took him to the vets as he started having a skin condition at the same time, this seemed to reduce his activity even more, after loads of tests with nothing found the vet gave him pain killers. BANG!!! Back to his usual self, but he SEEMED happy enough?

  Fact is he was in discomfort, not enough for him to whine when his arthitic back legs were touched or when he was out for a walk, he looked steady when he walked & just seemed like age was catching up to him.

  What I'm saying is there is NO WAY any human being can say - the dog suffers no pain before, during or years & years after having it's tail docked. FACT.

  I hope I didn't waste my time in typing all this up - remember what I said before tails should be docked in some circumstances, but NOT for tradition and certainly NOT for asthetics.

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I have fox terriers who are a docked breed. They are docked for a reason which is for them to work. Fox terriers are breed to go to ground to catch the rat or the fox badger ect.. My fox terriers are show dogs and brilliant ones at that but they also can chase and catch vermin they have never been trained to work but it is in there blood have you ever seen a fox terrier chase a rat! i dont think you could stop it they are very fast dogs as soon as i know it my terriers are down the hole! when my puppy was young she chase a rabbit down a hole and got stuck if it hadnt of been for her docked tail acting as a pipe stopper(it acts as a anchor stopper the terrier going right in the hole) i wouldnt have been able to get her out. she was only a pup and was crying. It was the first time she had gone to ground and was crying for me to pull her out. I pulled her out of the hole by her tail. Which had no damage as it had been docked. If it were undocked she could have been suffercated in the hole as her tail would have been too long curled over at the back! whos going to pay me for the lose of a pet who i love dearly it is priceless! Although some fox terriers seem to have no problem it has been found that the undocked tail is lifeless,curled onto the back and unable to wag in the way it did. The risk of damage is more likely it ristricts the working terrier going down the hole. The ban came into force in Sweden in 1989 and that year 38% of dogs in one breed alone had tail injuries before they were 18months old. By 1991 the number of injuries increases to 51%. The practice of tail docking was insituted 450years ago. It would appear the same reasons exist today.

To people who agree to the ban its up to you. The docking has been banned and it is such a shame. The puppies do not cry whist having there tails removed and dont remember a thing 5mins later. Just like when a baby has a vaccination. Now defra are trying to bann all docked breeds for showing where the public pay for entry. Thats not fair on people who have paid money for pets that have been docked by the the breeders by the vet. fair enough they have banned the docking and it is no more but banning docked dogs from showing is very silly. As they were docked befor the ban. Defra should concentrate on other issues such as how bird flu got into the country! perhaps if they hadnt had been so wrapped up it tail docking the bird flu incident wouldnt of happened. Ther are also other issues of crulety all around the world far worse than the docking of tails eg the killing of the bull in spain ect..

People always find something to moan about and they will never be happy. One day there will be no dog show as they will probaly say its cruel to stand a dog in the ring for minutes on end with too much noise and stress for the publics entertainment(but i bet all you who support the ban will be watching crufts!). Is horseriding cruel for bearing too much weight on a horses back?! wait for the ban! lol this country is getting ridulious. Thankyou mr blair.

 

[muttz]

:wacko: I dont have overly strong feelings on tail docking either way but I cant always understand why the working dog argument is always used. Foxhounds and Beagles work in the most dense undergrowth/brambles etc but are not a docked breed so why Vizlas etc ?

I know its the time of year when these issues are raised (Crufts) but it is interesting to hear other peoples views and opinions. :huggles:

 

[Paula Roberts]

To me a Jack Russell or boxer or any other breed of dog thats always had its tail docked, just look like mongrels with long tails, they must at some point in time been done for a reason so why change them now, if they are done in the correct way i see no harm in it at all.

 

[JAXASS14D]

The pain a dog will endure having damaged it's undocked tail in adulthood is far far greater that the pain a puppy feels when getting it's tail docked at a few days old . Having lived with Boxers for many years , I can assure you of that .

http://rocksetdesigns.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

 

[Alex Delarge]

I still have not heard one argument for the docking of tails, I have already stated I think certain working dogs should have their tails docked, but still have not heard one person come out with a valid argument. And by the way - just because an issue is less significant than other issues doesn't mean it should not be discussed!!

And also - how can you compare a child vacination to a dogs tail being amputated!!? - This is the logic that these people follow!! Like I said for pets - there is NO reason what-so-ever to dock a dogs tail other than asthetics or for tradition.

 

[Alex Delarge]

The pain a dog will endure having damaged it's undocked tail in adulthood is far far greater that the pain a puppy feels when getting it's tail docked at a few days old  . Having lived with Boxers for many years , I can assure you of that .

http://rocksetdesigns.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

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Lets cut pups legs off because the pup will go through less pain than an adult that breaks their leg.

What I've just said is Just a little more idiotic than what you posted. And about you being able to assure me of your dogs not suffering any pain - read my previous posts. :thumbsup:

 

[Nicola]

My dad had his leg amputated due to having cancer, now he doesn't have much pain from the amputation, but he does have phantom pain occasionally. This is very sore for him and I can see him in quite a bit of discomfort. Like I said it happens like mabye once a month or whatever. It happens because his brain thinks his leg is still there and his cut nerve endings signal a problem. This happens to almost all amputees, whether it's their finger, leg or arm. How do you know if your dog suffers in the same way? You don't. A dog can signal very very painful things by whining. But it wont tell you of a discomfort that lasts only a few minutes. Another problem my dad has is his nerves continued to grow to his stump and actually penetrated through his skin - this again is common. Some cases are less painful than others, and sometimes it doesn't happen. But it makes the skin very hypersensative & more painful to touch. Again this is a discomfort, not a jagged blown out pain.   My dog is 11 now and he wasn't as active as he was before, he was still very happy though, so we just put this down to old age. We took him to the vets as he started having a skin condition at the same time, this seemed to reduce his activity even more, after loads of tests with nothing found the vet gave him pain killers. BANG!!! Back to his usual self, but he SEEMED happy enough?

  Fact is he was in discomfort, not enough for him to whine when his arthitic back legs were touched or when he was out for a walk, he looked steady when he walked & just seemed like age was catching up to him.

  What I'm saying is there is NO WAY any human being can say - the dog suffers no pain before, during or years & years after having it's tail docked. FACT.

  I hope I didn't waste my time in typing all this up - remember what I said before tails should be docked in some circumstances, but NOT for tradition and certainly NOT for asthetics.

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That's certainly food for thought. Interesting reading

I do believe docking in some breeds should be banned (but not working breeds). I own a mini schnauzer, and this is a breed that is still docked. Minis don't work...they are now first and foremost pets. They have lovely tails when undocked...either crescent shaped or the odd curled one (whoch would probably be an undesirable trait). I sometimes feel sad when Stan gets excited and only his stump is wagging.....minis have such beautiful tails. Last year at Crufts a continental fully tailed mini schnauzer went BoB. The cheer that went up was resounding....and the dog's tail wagged furiously! :teehee:

Whether Stan suffers any pain as a result of his docked tail...hard to tell...as you say, but I do sometimes wonder!

Now...for those dogs that are truly working dogs...then don't ban docking. I agree with those that say the injuries are far worse than the dock itself. However, the list of true working dogs needs to be reconsidered!

 

[sharron]

I agree that working dogs should be docked. But only if they are working dogs.

We walk with afew dogs same of which are docked and same of which arent.

1 is a rottie with a complete tail. Hes a pet dog and his tail is beautful.

We also see a weimaraner who has never hunted and never well. He is docked, when the owner first got him he did ask for him not to be docked but the breeder would not sell him undocked.

But each to there own opinion.

 

[Alex Delarge]

I think the horrible thing here is the fact that it's always been done with some breeds and obviousley a lot of breeders/owners of these docked breeds are going to be conservative about such things. I don't see any harm in letting such a thing go in pets. The animal is born with a tail. You can see similarites in this topic with the argument of circumcision in humans. But that issue has more of a religous background that's why it's so deep rooted, it's not just tradition!! Tonsils in humans are removed now only if the tonsils are prone to infection, yes if all tonsils were removed when we were younger it would be less painful in the future if we needed them out. But if there is nothing wrong with the tonsils - they are left!! I just find it a bit sad people have problems in letting such things go

 

[jezza]

My dad had his leg amputated due to having cancer, now he doesn't have much pain from the amputation, but he does have phantom pain occasionally. This is very sore for him and I can see him in quite a bit of discomfort. Like I said it happens like mabye once a month or whatever. It happens because his brain thinks his leg is still there and his cut nerve endings signal a problem. This happens to almost all amputees, whether it's their finger, leg or arm. How do you know if your dog suffers in the same way? You don't. A dog can signal very very painful things by whining. But it wont tell you of a discomfort that lasts only a few minutes. Another problem my dad has is his nerves continued to grow to his stump and actually penetrated through his skin - this again is common. Some cases are less painful than others, and sometimes it doesn't happen. But it makes the skin very hypersensative & more painful to touch. Again this is a discomfort, not a jagged blown out pain.   My dog is 11 now and he wasn't as active as he was before, he was still very happy though, so we just put this down to old age. We took him to the vets as he started having a skin condition at the same time, this seemed to reduce his activity even more, after loads of tests with nothing found the vet gave him pain killers. BANG!!! Back to his usual self, but he SEEMED happy enough?

  Fact is he was in discomfort, not enough for him to whine when his arthitic back legs were touched or when he was out for a walk, he looked steady when he walked & just seemed like age was catching up to him.

  What I'm saying is there is NO WAY any human being can say - the dog suffers no pain before, during or years & years after having it's tail docked. FACT.

  I hope I didn't waste my time in typing all this up - remember what I said before tails should be docked in some circumstances, but NOT for tradition and certainly NOT for asthetics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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That's certainly food for thought. Interesting reading

I do believe docking in some breeds should be banned (but not working breeds). I own a mini schnauzer, and this is a breed that is still docked. Minis don't work...they are now first and foremost pets. They have lovely tails when undocked...either crescent shaped or the odd curled one (whoch would probably be an undesirable trait). I sometimes feel sad when Stan gets excited and only his stump is wagging.....minis have such beautiful tails. Last year at Crufts a continental fully tailed mini schnauzer went BoB. The cheer that went up was resounding....and the dog's tail wagged furiously! :teehee:

Whether Stan suffers any pain as a result of his docked tail...hard to tell...as you say, but I do sometimes wonder!

Now...for those dogs that are truly working dogs...then don't ban docking. I agree with those that say the injuries are far worse than the dock itself. However, the list of true working dogs needs to be reconsidered!

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I live round the corner from a miniture schnauzer with a full tail and he looks gorgeous with it :wub: certainly not like a mongrel! (and why would it matter if he did?????)

I agree that working dogs should be docked, but not pets. However, I imagine that it would be a difficult law to implement.

 

[neave]

What i cant understand is docking of a lambs tail by farmers not vets is still being alound to carry on?

 

[posh totty]

farmers imo are better qualified to do it then some person with a limited knowledge but a certificate to say they can , some farmers can splint legs better then your average vet as they do it more often, they work with and know those animals far better

also many good breeders are far better at docking or removing dews for the very same reason

the tails are taken off to prevent maggot probs and also the soiling devalues the fleece :thumbsup:

 

[foxway]

I think the horrible thing here is the fact that it's always been done with some breeds and obviousley a lot of breeders/owners of these docked breeds are going to be conservative about such things. I don't see any harm in letting such a thing go in pets. The animal is born with a tail. You can see similarites in this topic with the argument of circumcision in humans. But that issue has more of a religous background that's why it's so deep rooted, it's not just tradition!! Tonsils in humans are removed now only if the tonsils are prone to infection, yes if all tonsils were removed when we were younger it would be less painful in the future if we needed them out. But if there is nothing wrong with the tonsils - they are left!! I just find it a bit sad people have problems in letting such things go 

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It not about traditions it really is about the true damage that can happen to a dog. Have you ever seen a spaniel that has has its tail ripped to shreds? its not a pretty sight. My dads spainel riped his tail on some barbed wire whilst out brushing it never healed he was in alot of pain and distress. Distress that wouldnt have occured if he had his tail docked. Why cant a dog work and show? people need to find a fine line between the two. I like the fact that my terriers are able to work and show and would hate for them to have to give one or the other up beause of tail docking. My dogs work and show and are also my pets they DONT spend their lives in kennels and cages they sleep in the bed with me and my hubby. they eat better food than i do and get more attention than my kids and have a fourtune spent on them on accessories. I love my dogs and would never let vets dock their tails if a thought it was causing them any pain. I saw on the news today that 20 in 2years police dogs that has not been docked had tail injuries thats ten dogs a year. Like i stated above in sweden when the ban was introduced the statistics increased 51% of injuries to tails befor dogs reached 18months in one breed alone to undocked breeds. Im not stuck in my ways i am only 22 but have lived in the courtyside all my childhood and have always lived with animals. I have seen accidents happen and truly believe that some things need to be done for a good reason. I have yet to hear anyone say it is about tradition or for cosmectic reasons and if it were i too would be agaist the docking, but it truly is for the dogs benifit. o

 

[beaker]

farmers have to dock hundreds of lambs tail each year and are generally much more skilled and competant at it than a vet, lambing season can extend over quite a period so in order to have all the lambs tails done at the right time the vet would have to be called out so many time to do such a simple procedure that it would probably put the farmer out of business just paying the bill. some of the farmers i know 'band' the tails, quick simple and it leaves a very neat finish.

i grew up with working english springers and have seen dogs working both with and without tails in a wide variety of terrain and undergrowth, the only tail injuries i saw were on the full tailed dogs and because of the happy waggy bouncy nature of the breed these dogs were forever re-opening the wounds and in one case through infection the dog lost the entire tail and was lucky to survive.

many people's first venture into a working trials, beating for shoots etc is done with their beloved pet, they may later invest in a purpose bred dog but not always, so to try and distinguish something that is only ever going to work and something that is only ever going to be a pet is impossible.

i aggree that there are several breeds that no longer require being docked but maybe a re-assessment of breeds that should and breeds that shouldn't is a better way foward than a blanket ban