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The Dog Whisperer Tonight

Discussion in 'Dog Behaviour and Training' started by Tim 1, Feb 7, 2011.

  1. Tim 1

    Tim 1 New Member Registered

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    UK - On National Geographic Wild 8PM Channel 528 enjoy :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2011
  2. Stubournazza

    Stubournazza New Member Registered

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    This starts tomorrow Tuesday ;)
     
  3. Tim 1

    Tim 1 New Member Registered

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    :oops: my mistake
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2011
  4. JAX

    JAX New Member Registered

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    Missed it , Bummer !! must remember for next week
     
  5. FeeFee

    FeeFee New Member Registered

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    Sorry, can't stand the man or his methods, very depressing to see yet another series on TV setting dog training back 10 years :(

    Shame people can't see brilliant trainers like Ian Dunbar or Jean Donaldson at work, but they aren't 'entertainers' and training dogs properly demands time and patience, so not good TV.
     
  6. wilfred

    wilfred New Member Registered

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    I completely agree, FeeFee :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
     
  7. Tim 1

    Tim 1 New Member Registered

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    I totally disagree the man knows his stuff,also if Dunbar and Donaldsonwhere offered TV SHOW would they turn it down i dot think so, also please explain why it would set dog training back 10 years,
     
  8. FeeFee

    FeeFee New Member Registered

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    also please explain why it would set dog training back 10 years,

    Harsh, bullying methods, too much manhandling of dogs, everything based on old-fashioned dominance theory which every other decent behaviourist discarded years ago, little use of rewards, no use of modern training techniques such as clickers, everything geared towards conflict and 'showing who's boss'.

    He may appear to 'know his stuff' but when you listen to what he says the dog is doing/feeling, then watch the dog's body language he's often talking complete rubbish. I saw an episode in which he'd pinned a dog to the ground and was talking about the dog being in a state of 'calm acceptance', when in fact the dog was lying there with it's sides heaving and eyes rolling, obviously extremely frightened and stressed.

    Pretty much every respectable behavioural and veterinary association have denounced his methods.

    http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/

    Fair enough, if people are knowledgeable about training and having seen other trainers at work, read their books etc still think he's OK that's up to them. Unfortunately for the majority of ordinary dog owners he's the only professional trainer they see and they assume because he's famous and on the telly that his methods are OK.

    One dog we rehomed was very nearly pts because the owner persisted with CM-type training methods against all our advice, resulting in a frightened dog who bit someone badly. Luckily we were able to take him back into a situation where he was trained using much more sensible, positive methods and he's absolutely blossomed and has had no further problems.

    You've probably gathered I don't like him. I'll shut up now :lol: :lol:
     
  9. JAX

    JAX New Member Registered

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    We are all entitled to our own opinion,

    personnally I take some of CM ideas and not others .

    but you must admit that running all the dogs he has together in LA , he must know something about dog behaviour.

    I still like to watch him and went to see him when he came to my home town . Hes certainly `fit` :thumbsup:
     
  10. Tim 1

    Tim 1 New Member Registered

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    I used to train springer spaniels for field work and have a fair knowledge of training differant breeds 30yrs approx, id never heard of Cesar till a read a book he published, i was impressed look up how he sorts out pitbull terriers and tell me the man does not know what he is doing,Ok you do not like him but let other people decide whats right and whats wrong you cant please everyone but please keep an open mind,as dog behaviourists go i would recommend him to anyone rememeber what you are seeing on tv is edited so you are not seeing the full picture, there is no quick fix, but this show is on for half an hour rant over.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 13, 2011
  11. FeeFee

    FeeFee New Member Registered

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    Of course everybody will have their own opinions and will make up their own minds about him :thumbsup:

    It just worries me that a lot of people watching CM on TV have no idea how controversial his methods are. He's a great entertainer, a charismatic character (and yes Jex, very fit :lol: ) a relentless self-publicist and has a major TV network behind him. He's also widely disliked and held to be something of a charlatan by most of the people generally respected in the dog world, which of course isn't ever apparent to people watching his programmes, so I think it's important people have both sides of the argument :))
     
  12. Dotty&Duke

    Dotty&Duke New Member Registered

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    I have to admit I did Pm Tim and say I think Caesar is Fab. (also quite cute :wub: but beside the point) I didn't have the guts to say so on the forum but now a few more have replied. I have to say no I do not agree with all the methods he uses espescially the e-collar and prong collar. i do however have to say he has saved a hell of a lot of red zone dogs that would otherwise have been PTS and also his calm manner seems to work wonders. I have been attempting to use this with Duke who gets way too excited when we go out, and I have to say I have seen improvements. Obviously though as mentioned by Jax, people need to use a bit of sense and use only what is applicable to them and what is kind and in the best interest of their dog and themselves. I saw him when he came to the UK last year and yes he does have a gift. Sorry Tim I was too gutless to post before. :))
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 13, 2011
  13. FeeFee

    FeeFee New Member Registered

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    Blimey Dotty&Duke, I'm sorry if my post intimidated you or made you feel reluctant to post, it certainly wasn't intended to do that.

    I was just stating my opinion, other people have stated theirs, I haven't attacked anyone for having a different view or been rude or unpleasant to anyone I don't think?

    I certainly wouldn't want to fall out with anybody over differing opinions about a TV dog trainer, life is too short :))
     
  14. Dotty&Duke

    Dotty&Duke New Member Registered

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    Aww no Fee fee quite the opposite, you were the one that gave me the confidence to reply! :thumbsup: I liked the way you said 'you respect everybodys right to an opinion'! And not just that i could see the thread was going in the way it should, an adult debate which is how it should be. I actually PMed Tim even before anyone had replied because you know what its been like lately with some of the other threads which have decended into people scrapping. Actually this thread is going the way all threads should healthy debate Thanks to all who have posted :thumbsup: By the way I'm not very happy with Caesar tonight they've put one of the UK episodes on for the 3rd Time !!! Lol :lol: sue xxxxx
     
  15. beaker

    beaker *blackaholic* with contagious whippetitus Registered

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    i do so wish more people would try understanding the canine 'language' it makes for far better communication and harmony between us and dogs,

    I was having a discussion with my little brother just the other week about why his dog, whom he showered with love and affection and spent so much time training to perfection would drop him like a hot potato when ever i came to visit, in fact he actually said it really cut him to the bone and he accused me of witchcraft lol (w00t)

    i explained that i just talked to her in her own language, if he lived in a house full of French people who only spoke french and him only english, it wouldn't matter how many eclair's and cakes they fed him, how many hugs they gave him, how much they thought of him and were lovely to him, if a fellow english person knocked at the door he'd just be thrilled to have someone to simply talk to.

    no matter how his methods sit with us, it is hard to deny that Cesar does have a talent for talking and listening to dogs, just watch how he communicates with the closed off nervous dogs

    maybe if more people understood how to get a dog calmly surrender to their will themselves, there wouldn't be all that many cases for Mr Milan and some of his over dramatic tecniques to deal with.
     
  16. FeeFee

    FeeFee New Member Registered

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    I agree about understanding dog's communication and body language, it's something people so often overlook. I particularly like Turid Rugaas' take on this, I saw a video talk of hers on calming signals and how you can use them yourself working with timid or aggressive dogs, and it really does work. I keep meaning to buy her book http://www.canis.no/rugaas/index.php

    I don't really see myself as bending my dogs to my will, I like to try to set things up so I'm working with them not against them - but I think that's what you mean really Beaky, that the dogs become willing partners in whatever you are trying to teach them or do with them? If my dogs aren't wagging their tails when I'm training them then I'm doing something wrong.

    All my dogs over the last 30 years have been rescues, some of them have suffered horrible abuse or neglect and some have had behavioural issues of one kind or another, and I've invariably found that being gentle, calm and quiet and doing things in tiny steps with lots of chances to succeed and get rewarded along the way gets much better results than any harsh methods or trying to force them in any way.
     
  17. Esty

    Esty New Member Registered

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    I do applaud the fact that CM has helped save hundreds of dogs from death row and he is quite amazing to watch BUT there is a big problem with people trying to copy him and damaging dogs.

    Recently I went to a TTouch training seminar held at the Dog's Trust. We we all assigned dogs to work with and we were asked if anyone would volunteer to help with a 'known biter'. I volunteered (quite why, I don't know, just had a feeling it would be educational) and went out to meet the dog and the Dog's Trust assistant who brought him out. I looked at the dog and his body language and said to the guy 'Not being funny but he doesn't show any of the signs I would expect from an aggressive dog.' I worked with this dog for an hour and at no point did I feel threatened by him (and I'm not a 'dog handler' by any description, just a keen amateur.) The assistant told me the full story. This dog, with no known history of biting at the time, was placed in a new home with a couple. On the day he went home, the lady owner tried to remove his bowl before he had finished eating becasue he was making a mess with his food. The dog growled (not brilliant, but not a capital offence) but the lady carried on. Bear in mind she had had the dog for a day and had no bonding with him. The dog warned more obviously and the man of the house decided it was being dominant and did a half assed Ceasar Milan alpha roll, at which point the dog naturally bit him. This dog faced months in rescue because then the DT had to tell every potential owner that he had a history of biting :(

    I do believe in learning everything I can about canine language which is why Jim Greenwood is coming here on Friday morning to help me with my unruly pack! :b
     
  18. FeeFee

    FeeFee New Member Registered

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    That is exactly the sort of story that we hear all too often Esty. I'm afraid it's got to the point where if someone applying for one of our dogs proudly tells us that they know about training because they watch CM and think he's great we see that as something to be concerned about.

    Jim Greenwood is fab, I've been on a couple of his workshops and really enjoyed them and learned loads.

    His manner with dogs is lovely, really gentle and softly spoken, but dogs just take to him somehow. He's helped rescues and turned round some difficult dogs - without e-collars, prong-collars, alpha rolling, heel jabs or hissing in their faces :thumbsup:
     
  19. jayp

    jayp New Member Registered

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    I do think "some" of the things Cesar does are used as a blanket description of his methods. He hardly ever rolls a dog, he heels or hisses to get them out of a "fixed" mode of behaviour.....not to hurt them

    One thing he does exceptionally well is to show owners what got them into needing his help in the first place

    If as Becs has said owners were helped in the beginning to understand that ignore and treat does not make a balanced dog, after all the vast majority of dogs he has to work with come from owners that give plenty of treats but zilch discipline

    As with children it needs to be balanced with reward and consequences ......reward on its own isnt enough it has to be balanced with consequences too

    All methods dont suit every dog ......I could easily teach mine to sit, stay down etc with treats alone

    But teach them recall from running prey ......there is not a chance that any treat and click would make them trustworthy. It would mean I could train them to stay with me with the expectation of food .......not difficult but trustworthy if something jumped up and ran, No

    If I had trained them better younger then maybe but most of Cesars cases are like mine ....dogs with re-inforced bad habits that have had no consequence so the behaviour.

    I do appreciate and understand rolling dogs etc etc by people who cant read a dog is very harmful and to that end I agree 100%
     
  20. Dotty&Duke

    Dotty&Duke New Member Registered

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    i'm just thinking about what Esty said. The people who had that rescue dog with the apparent food agression. if they were stupid enough to use methods caesar was using without consulting a professional then surely it is them that are at fault not Caesar? At the beginning of every epsode of the dog whisperer it is clearly stated 'Do not try any of these methods without consulting a professional'.Surely these people are at fault not Caesar. Its common sense with an issue as serious as food agression you should always either refer back to the rescue for support or consult a professional. The people who had this poor dog sound like absolute half wits!!
     

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