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Why might an owner not want his dog neutered

Discussion in 'General Dog Forum' started by hollysh, Feb 2, 2019.

  1. hollysh

    hollysh Active Member Registered

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    I walk and dog sit for a 6 year old 'entire' golden retriever.
    In every other way he is a fabulous dog.
    He's very loving. Loves his walks, swimming in the sea. He's great with the other dogs I walk as well. It's just when it comes to meeting with other male dogs that are 'entire'...
    We've been having a lovely week together. And just now bumped into a fellow male golden retriever on the beach and he attacked him.
    The dog in question is 15 years old. He was no threat whatsoever. It was an open beach. Luckily I knew the woman and I managed to pull him off quite quickly and he wasn't hurt. But it's shaken me up and I feel so bad for this dog and the woman.
    I generally only let him off the lead when it's quiet. I won't take him on the beach if there are big dogs down there but it was quiet this morning. There was one lone dog walking with its owner towards us. I didn't recognise who the owner was until it was too late (that the dog was an un-neutered male). I know I should have been quicker at pre-empting it. I explained to the woman as soon as I saw her that they were both un-neutered and we had better pull them apart. She went up to them but said my dog had started growling and asked me to sort it out but by the time I got to him he was on him.

    In hindsight on a Saturday (busier) I should have kept him on the lead.
    In the 2 years I have been walking him he has been aggressive with 2 dogs. But his owner has said he has also tried to fight dogs when he's taken him out as well.

    I have said again to him that he needs to be neutered. What other suggestions can you give other than keeping him on the lead? I won't let him play with strange dogs anyway just in case of this behaviour occurring.
    He's very close to my dogs, for 2 years he has not so much as barked at them but they are all neutered.
    Im not sure how to convince the owner that getting him 'done is the right thing.
     
  2. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

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    Has the owner said why they don't want to neuter him? In your postion I would simply explain to them that you're not prepared to let him off lead because you can't be responsible for him attacking other dogs. Then it's down to the owner to decide if his dog would be happier without his gonads, but with his freedom.

    However... being entire might not be the cause of the problem, and neutering him might not fix it. My neutered male, like many, doesn't like entire males and has been aggressive with them (though he's mellowed a lot over the years, this was a big problem when he was around 2-3). He has also been aggressive with an older, infirm dog - that one caught me right out of the blue - from experience I was sure he'd be fine with it, but there was something about that dog he really didn't like.

    So even if this dog was neutered, it's not guaranteed that neutering will help.
     
  3. Jack-Russell-Lover

    Jack-Russell-Lover Well-Known Member Registered

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    I agree, just say that you can't risk letting him off lead. It'll be safer for you and him and any other dogs you may come across. If the owner decides to keep him entire or neuter that's their choice.
    I think that unless you're breeding all dogs should be neutered, unless of course they're at an increased risk from going under anaesthetic due to health reasons such as epilepsy. But that's just my opinion.
     
  4. Mad Murphy

    Mad Murphy Well-Known Member Registered

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    As @JudyN says neutering isnt a magic cure. This dog is obviously just not trustworthy , we accept that Murphy even though neutered doesnt like certain types of dog black labs are Nr 1 on his hit list we know the cause which was a numpty owner who thought letting his dog bully a pup was funny but its left us with the fall out. However we cant just let him attack every black lab he sees and give this past incident as an excuse.. I hear people do that when they say 'oh hes a rescue ' no your dog is badly behaved deal with it.

    So just tell the owner that you cant let his dog off in open spaces anymore and maybe suggest a therapist to see if they can guess the cause of the behaviour.

    On another note , what if the other dog had been small? What if the damage had been significant? What would be the outcome for this dog then?
     
  5. JoanneF

    JoanneF Well-Known Member Registered

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    There are many reasons why people choose not to neuter - @excuseme posts a link sometimes which is quite balanced Neutering Your Dog – Making an Informed Decision. Some people just don't want to have the procedure because they don't consider the benefits to be sufficient, others might wish to breed - at the end of the day, it's his choice.
    To be a bit blunt, in his position I wouldn't appreciate my dog walker trying to convince me of anything.

    If you aren't happy with the risk this dog presents, I think you have two choices here - walk the dog on lead or ask him to find a new dog walker.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  6. Rhythmpig

    Rhythmpig Active Member Registered

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    I go to alot of lurcher/longdog events,usually there's about 30 dogs and bitches. The vast majority of these dog are all intact. I can't remember the last time I saw any hassle between the dogs.
     
    Ari_RR likes this.
  7. Ari_RR

    Ari_RR Active Member Registered

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    There ought to be a way for dog walkers to upgrade their skills to be able to walk and train. I am sure there is market for this kind of service. High end, one of one, walk and train may well be more profitable than just walking, even if walking more than 1 dog at a time. But would need new skills and probably different marketing.

    I would try to convince the owner to first invest in a training program, where the dog goes through a series of steps designed to make him more reliable, confident, and less reactive/aggressive towards other dogs. Either himself, or with the help of a dog walker or a positive reinforcement trainer.

    This would be more time and effort than neutering, of course.
     
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  8. hollysh

    hollysh Active Member Registered

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    Thanks. He's a really good boy. I wouldn't want to give him up, as I love him. I love all my dogs but I have a soft spot for him as his owner works away on business a lot and he spends a large amount of time alone. He is so happy to see me always.

    I do feel that his owner does respect my opinion (i hope). Ive walked him for 2 years. I have messaged to explain what happened and have said to ask his vet what he feels i.e would he benefit from being neutered. As the owner knows he has aggressive tendencies, he's experienced it himself. He's said he will speak to the vet, so am hoping he does. As it's not nice for him. It's just not in his nature to be nasty. And maybe behavioural classes would help. Maybe vet would suggest that too.
     
  9. hollysh

    hollysh Active Member Registered

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    They've all been big dogs. I dont think he feels threatened by little ones.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  10. Ari_RR

    Ari_RR Active Member Registered

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    This could be a contributing factor too.
     
  11. hollysh

    hollysh Active Member Registered

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    Yes it definitely is but not a lot I can say about that.
     
  12. Josie

    Josie Administrator Administrator Registered

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    Hello @hollysh I have the same issues with an entire GR male that I walk. He is perfect with Dennis and females but a real bugger with other entire males!

    I have just adapted to his behaviours. I only let him off the lead when we go up the woods where dogs are few. Out in public I keep him on his lead and am just very aware of all other dogs around me.
     
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  13. malwhit

    malwhit New Member Registered

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    My Mini Schnauzer male was never neutered, he never pestered females, nevee got involved in fights and never lifted his leg indoors.

    My vet said castration only has one guarantee, the dog can't reproduce. If a dog is aggressive or has other issues it may help, but not always.
     
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  14. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    .

    @malwhit ,
    It’s true that no-one can guarantee a good result on ANY ONE DOG - but statistically, yes, castration reduces aggression across the spectrum, whether that’s dog:dog aggro, M:M reactivity [posture, growl, challenging displays, etc] or actual M:M aggro involving fights & bites, territorial aggro, stranger intolerance, etc.

    THere’s no “warranty” that claims a neutered dog will never fight or bite, that would be ridiculous - but the stats are quite clear, in that intact Ms are hit by cars far-more often than mere chance would predict, & the classic ‘biting dog’ in the USA has a definite profile, per the CDC: the typical “biting dog” that delivers a bite requiring medical attn, which results in scarring or permanent damage, & usually needs butterfly pins or stitches to close the wounds, is male, intact, approx 2-YO, untrained, & either lives outside, or is sequestered from the family: he spends most of his time in a pen, on a chain, or similarly not in the family’s shared space.


    I can also state definitively that fully 60% of the owner-surrendered dogs in the various VA shelters & rescues where i volunteered, were intact Ms between 6 & 12-MO;
    That’s very significant, as approx half of all pups born are F, & half are M — why are more than half the dogs who are surrendered, not only M, but not neutered?... Moreover, why are more than half that 60% pool between 9 & 12-MO?
    Obviously, it’s not a random sample of the pet-dog popn, it’s a weighted subset, & this means that “being male” makes U more likely to lose Ur 1st home than U would be, if U were a F dog.
    However, if U are neutered, U are apparently more likely to keep that 1st home - while if U are intact AND male AND between 9 & 12-MO, the odds of losing Ur home skyrocket.
    And to rub salt in the wound, those intact-M dogs in their super-male phase were also almost invariably untrained, except for possibly being housetrained. They didn’t know a single cued behavior reliably - not Sit, Down, Come, Stay, nada.


    Since per AKC stats, 90% of America’s pet dogs receive no training, the fact that these surrendered dogs are almost always untrained is not shocking - but that so many are 9 to 12-MO, AND intact-Ms, is IMO very significant.

    Many of the dogs who are brought to Massachusetts for placement in adoptive homes are precisely those dogs: post-puberty intact Ms, 1-YO or younger. // The rescues who bring them here desex them, vaccinate them, treat their heart worm [another near-universal trait of these dogs, along with hookworms & roundworms], get rid of their fleas, & place them in foster care until they are adopted, thus giving them some experience of living with humans, in a human environment.

    Rescues & shelters in all 50 states are almost all legally required to S/N any mammalian pet they place, with the exception of mice; Guinea pigs, rats, rabbits, dogs, cats, etc.
    Horses & other livestock, the Fs are usually left intact, but Ms are castrated; so cows are not OHE, nor are mares, ewes, or sows, but bulls become steers, boars become stags, rams become wethers, & stallions become geldings.

    BIRDS are not usually desexed, only b/c they are such a high risk under anaesthesia - they only go under GA for emergency medical procedures, such as surgery for life-threatening conditions. // Likewise, fish & reptiles are not usually S/N before they are listed as adoptable.

    EDIT:
    Correction, thank U, @Ari_RR -
    Fish & herps are intact when they are adopted. :). I missed that phrase while editing, it went to the end of the sentence, LOL, & i had inserted “fish & reptiles”.

    addendum:
    Parrots’ sexual attachments to humans can become life-threatening, as hens will lay eggs repeatedly & cocks can become overattached; both sexes may regurgitate food in a pair-bonding ritual, & can become dangerously aggressive if they are jealous.
    I wish there was a nonsurgical option to neuter parrots. :(

    - terry

    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  15. Ari_RR

    Ari_RR Active Member Registered

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    Fish are not usually S/N.. meaning sometimes they are S/N?? I would have never thought. Live and learn.

    Sure, there is a subset of dog owners who are unfit for the role. For good or bad reasons, this is not a judgement call. Dogs come with a lot of life-long responsibilities. Not everyone realizes the extend of the commitment, not everyone is able to sustain.

    However, there are also plenty of responsible owners, willing to put the necessary effort, who among other things ensure no unintended matings/litters. For those - my advice is to do their own research and actually learn about neutering before scheduling the surgery, based on modern studies, and understanding risks and benefits (and lack of benefits).

    Neutering a dog, which one intends to keep and care for for life, based on the stats related to dogs in shelters - would be a strange reason. There ought to be a hell of a better reason than that, unless one intends to surrender his dog to a shelter.

    A long winded way to say that shelters and responsible owners have quite different considerations.

    “Responsible owner” doesn’t just mean responsibility to neighbors, random people, and their dogs. It also means responsibility to your own dog. A part of it is to know the risks and effects of surgeries, and at least attempting to solve potential behavioral problems via training and management first.
     
  16. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    In fact, @Ari_RR , not “only” shelters & rescues in the U-S perform pediatric desex - that is, prior to 12-WO. :)

    In the UK, in an effort to reduce the number of unintended litters in cats - who are extremely precocious & prolific breeders, compared to dogs! - “early neuter” is an option that more & more cat breeders offer to their buyers. // The snip is done by the vet on the entire litter, before they leave for the buyers’ homes; they recover in a matter of hours, romping, eating, & behaving as tho nothing had happened.
    In the U-S, some dog breeders have been offering this option to their puppy buyers, & I think the UK will soon follow suit.

    Cat breeders in Oz also do ped-desex / early neuter, it’s standard practice there among purebred breeders - moggie breeders, as would be expected, mostly can’t be arsed. :rolleyes:
    But then again, most moggie litters are unplanned & the sire is unknown, so again, another instance of irresponsible littering, breeding an animal with no particular goal in mind, & without thought for the ripple effect of yet another “accidental” mating & pregnancy.

    Some dog breeders in the U-S already offer desex prior to transfer to their puppy buyers, & i think it will grow in popularity.
    The pups fast briefly, are under GA for a much shorter time, bleed less, bounce back up, heal faster, rarely need any pain meds, & have fewer complications of all kinds, when compared to dogs done at the traditional age [6-MO].


    Those complications can range from minor [rash from the suture material or the skin cleanser] to major - stitches fail, post-op infection superficial or deep, internal bleeding, all the way to death.
    In young pups & kittens, ALL complications are much reduced, which is wonderful - S/N is already a safe surgery, & making it even safer is IMO, terrific. :)


    In the early days [1972 - 1980], many concerns were expressed about future complications, due to early neuter - all sorts of disasters, from serious behavior issues to life-shortening health problems.
    In fact, one of the few definitive aftereffects is that the prepuce in M dogs & the vulva in Fs is smaller, in dogs who were neutered pediatrically, & vets also predicted that M cats who were neutered as kittens would be “more likely to have urinary blockages” as adults.
    Luckily, none of the doom-&-gloom prophecies proved true; F dogs spayed as pups do NOT develop chronic vaginitis, nor do M pups have trouble urinating or have penile infections, due to their smaller prepuce. // It’s a cosmetic difference, & nothing more. :)

    Neutered M cats do have a higher risk of UTIs than intact toms, but that holds no matter at what age they are neutered, & Ms snipped as kittens suffer no more UTIs or urinary blockages than those neutered as adult toms.
    M cats have an odd anatomy, with a pretty severe stricture of the drain from the bladder where it kinks to meet the exit, & that narrowing is what makes them so prone to urinary issues. :(

    I am happy to see purebred & crossbred breeders [so called “designer dogs] opting to neuter their pups before the buyers take them - I will be thrilled to see any further drop in the total number of U-S “surplus pets”, & a drop in euthanasia numbers would be fantastic.
    We’ve been stalled at 3 to 5 million surplus pets killed each year, for over 5 years; we need to break the logjam.

    We’ve gone from 15 million pets killed annually for more than 10 years, to 3 to 5M deaths per year; that’s a marvelous improvement, but still far too many.
    We need to keep chipping away at euthanasia numbers, & ped-desex can definitely help.

    - terry

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  17. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    QUOTE, "Ari_RR:

    Fish are not usually S/N.. meaning sometimes they are S/N?? I would have never thought. Live and learn.
    ___________________________________
    .


    I shoudn’t edit late at night, LOL - i inserted “fish & reptiles”, which bumped the “not usually S/N” to the tail end of the phrase, & i didn’t correct it.
    Thanks for catching that. :D

    .
     
  18. Ari_RR

    Ari_RR Active Member Registered

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    Not a single responsible breeder that I know offers an option of "pediatric desex".
    Instead they perform extensive checking of prospective owners.

    Not a single responsible prospective owner, getting a puppy from a responsible breeder, (that I know of) would chose such an option even if it was offered.

    It could be, of course, that i have a limited perspective here, mostly around Ridgeback breeders in US...

    EDIT: If a breeder were to offer me an option of "pediatric desex" - this would be the last conversation I would have with them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  19. Dibbythedog

    Dibbythedog Member Registered

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    Agree with JudyN that it might not be the fact that he is entire that is causing the problem.
    He could be neutered and still have problems with other dogs.
     
  20. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    QUOTE, Ari_RR:

    ...
    If a breeder were to offer me an option of "pediatric desex" - this would be the last conversation I would have with them.
    ___________________________________
    .


    Well, Ari-RR, if U were discussing the possible purchase of a purebred kitten...
    U might have that very convo. :—) And then, of course, hang up. :D
    The cat breeder might be UK, Oz, or USA, but the offers would be the same.

    Maybe stick to Rhodies, huh? :p

    - terry

    .
     

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