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You cant please all the people all the time.

Discussion in 'General Dog Forum' started by Mad Murphy, Apr 17, 2018 at 3:42 PM.

  1. Mad Murphy

    Mad Murphy Well-Known Member Registered

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    So theres a big media campaign going on at the moment about stopping the sale of puppies and kittens via ebay and its related sites such as gumtree in the UK and here in NL Marktplaats.

    Those for the ban are saying it will stop puppy farmers and the sale of pups by shady breeders and outright criminals.
    Loads of people are signing petitions demanding that ebay stop and saying it should be made more difficult to buy a pup and that only responible breeders should be allowed to sell/breed pups.

    Today on a breed page a woman is complaining because she has been turned down by two breeders the first she didnt say why, the second was because she made a date to view the pups then pulled out because her OH is working and then the breeder said she isnt motivated enough because she didnt want her pups going too far away (she wants to stay in touch) and the buyer is saying the 2 hour car trip is too much for her because she is disabled. She thinks its unfair of the breeder to say she isnt motivated enough to have a pup.
    The dog they are talking about is a Stabij, a hunting, working dog with an energy level close to a border collie.
    The buyer thinks this is unfair.

    Really? I think a breeder can choose who they want why they want. And what was all the shouting about more responsible breeders about then?

    The placing of a pup is surely a 50/50 thing, the breeder must take precautions and only place a pup where they think the dog will be really cared for and the buyer/prospective owner should be prepared to undergo some questioning and be willing to prove they are suitable to take on a pup?

    Unless the potential owners are willing to take some responsibility what good will banning the sale of pups via ebay do?
    Surely people will just go back to the old fashioned way of things, placing small ads in the paper , card in the shop window , sign by the side of the road, from a bloke down the pub...and the situation wont be any different. At least not for the poor pups and their mothers..
     
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  2. Caro Perry

    Caro Perry Well-Known Member Registered

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    They need to tighten up much more. Now that dogs have to be microchipped it wouldn't be difficult to make it a legal requirement that the chip numbers of the parents are recorded along with the pups own microchip. The system could then flag up over breeding etc.

    Obviously no system is foolproof but this would certainly help
     
  3. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

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    There will always be people who think they are entitled to have a dog of whatever type they like the look of regardless of their circumstances. And there will always be people willing to let their pups go to anyone who will pay and not care about their wellbeing at all. But the more we can make people accept that they shouldn't buy a puppy from a bloke in a layby, but should see the pup's parents or at least the mum, and that a good breeder will assess the buyer just as they would assess a school to send their children to, the less business there will be for puppy farmers and 'backyard breeders' who are only in it for the money or owners who thought it would be nice to breed from their dog but don't really know the first thing about breeding.
     
  4. Nanny71

    Nanny71 Active Member Registered

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    Dudley was a private sale on Gumtree. He is not pedigree but we did see both parents and his sister. He was a mating between the man's Bichon and his girlfriend's Chihuahua. He told us that the bitch was going to be spayed as he didn't want any more pups.
    We believed him, maybe naive but I don't think so as Dudley has been a joy from day one.
    East to train, got on well with other dogs from an early age. He was supposed to be my granddaughters dog but due to very sad circumstances he came to us at six months.
    He is still a joy, such a nice, kind, friendly little dog.
     
  5. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

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    Quite often - and I'm sure this wasn't the case with Dudley, @Nanny71 , people think they are seeing the pup in the home environment with the mother, but the pup has come from a puppy farm, has never been in a house before, and has never met that bitch before either.
     
  6. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    .

    @Nanny71 -
    IMO Dudley's breeder was very lucky, & his GF's Chi was even luckier, that she apparently whelped without much trouble. :eek: The difference in size between a Bichon sire & a Chi dam is considerable, & a breeder who did this on purpose would usually have brains-enuf to do it the other way 'round:
    M Chi, F Bichon, making it far-less likely that the dam must struggle to expel every pup, & U can lose dam & litter together. :(

    Ideally, medium-to-Lg dogs should not differ by more than 10 to 15# in weight, between sire & dam of the same breed - Ms tend to have heavier skeletons, more muscle-mass, broader chests, & heavier skulls, but U want to be sure it's a minor difference, to make whelping safer & easier. // A 20# difference is a bit too wide a gap.

    In Chis, the dam ideally should outweigh the M, & it's safest to use a dam who weighs at least 5#. // A 2# Chi bitch should never be bred - she should be spayed B4 1st estrus, & become a pet, no matter how pretty & "perfect" she might be, as she's just too tiny to carry the wt of a litter & nourish both herself AND the growing fetuses, with her itty-bitty stomach, plus her pelvic opening will be too small to whelp naturally, & such a small dog is a high-risk patient for C-section deliveries.

    When breeding, the size of the male does matter, but it's his body-wt & skull size per the prospective dam, not his wee willie, that we're concerned with. :rolleyes: Male vanity notwithstanding, penile size is pretty irrelevant. Sperm - now that's another matter! Sperm quality & numbers most definitely matter, & Ms in high demand should be strictly rationed as to the number of matings so that they recover numbers & fertility between Fs.

    - terry

    .
     
  7. Mad Murphy

    Mad Murphy Well-Known Member Registered

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    We adopted Benny my beagle from a couple with one child. The guy didnt want a dog, the boy didnt want the dog, the mother weighed about 200kg and could barly walk yet they bought a male beagle. When the dog didnt conform to their idea of a cute lap dog they beat him, threw him in the canal and when he managed to get out they decided to chain him to the garden fence. I cannot repeat any of the language or names they used for him. I got him because I put up an ad asking for a companion dog for my B.C.. Benny's pedigree was impeccable, his breeder was one of the top most well known breeders in NL with a whole host of champion dogs. This did not make him a good breeder or a responsible one. Benny came to us at 11 months totally untrained and passed away on june 10th 2016 aged 15.

    Murphy came via an ad on a website his owners had intended one litter but not at the time he came along. I did some checks on them and they seemed ok. When I arrived at the house both parents were there I was allowed to interact with both dogs. I saw the phtos of the mother while she was preganant and the pups as they were born. I was shown their paperwork and proof that the male had been de-sexed to stop any more litters. I was asked what I knew about stabijs , if I had had dogs before and loads of other things all done nicely over a cup of coffee. I wasnt rushed or pushed and I wasnt even asked for a deposit (I offered one) His breeder has stayed in touch as has one of his littermates owners. He arrived at 8 1/2 weeks fully toilet trained and answering to his name. He had been health checked twice by a vet and had his first vaccination.

    Good breeder isnt always the one with the posh kennel or the registration and pedigree papers hung above the door, a good breeder is the one who takes the time to know where their pups are going and wants the best for them.
     
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  8. Nanny71

    Nanny71 Active Member Registered

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    Sorry the dam was Bichon and the sire was Chihuahua. Not a teacup chi and a smallish Bichon. Dudley is bigger than both of them. He was very tiny when we got him and looked more Chi than Bichon with a apple shaped head and a slightly turned up nose he had a straight coat which became curly. He was also a fawn colour and the white didn't develop until his puppy coat was gone
    Even as a mismatch he is an amazing little dog and I think we are very lucky.
    I think he looks a bit more like a Chi in this photo.
     

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  9. Nanny71

    Nanny71 Active Member Registered

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    I have to say I think we were extremely lucky with Dudley. He is an amazing little dog.
    Benny had a good life with you after a dreadful start.
    Sometimes the best things in life come in an unexpected way.
     
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  10. Flobo

    Flobo Active Member Registered Partner

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    Two bitches I know, both bought from 'home' breeders, one a cocker spaniel that the breeder was selling as she couldn't carry a litter, supposedly lived in the home with the family and she was around 18months.. yet she had no experience of walking on a lead,not house trained, manically obsessed with food and when she stays with me I have a stair gate in the hall to separate the dogs from my ferrets and the front door and when she's at the gate she weaves like mad, pretty sure she spent her young life in a cage or kennel with little interaction. Her new owners have been brilliant, patient and have worked hard with her and she is a lovely little dog and maybe the fact she couldn't carry a litter, saved her a few years of intensive breeding...
    The other little dog is a Westie, adopted at around 6years of age from another 'home' breeder, she had successfully given, I dread to think how many litters and was put up for adoption because they no longer wanted to breed from her. Her new people took her in and she was scared of everything, leads,people, other dogs etc and within a couple of days of getting her home they had to rush her to the vet with what turned out to be a massive womb infection... Again she is doing good now, still quite nervous but getting there in a loving home...
    I don't know what the answer is but for every litter advertised there is also a mum and some sadly don't get the care, attention and love they deserve, intensive farming of dogs I can't really put it any other way, but it's going on and it's not right.
     
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  11. arealhuman

    arealhuman Well-Known Member Registered

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    Despite the success stories listed here, for me, buying a dog from ebay or Gumtree just doesn't feel right. I suppose because the internet is awash with scams and cons, my paranoia extends to these sites too.
     
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  12. JoanneF

    JoanneF Well-Known Member Registered

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    I feel like this too. I don't really feel comfortable with sentient animals being classed, as they are legally, as possessions in the same way as second hand washing machines.

    I do think there is a tricky balance though. While stamping out puppy farms is obviously what every responsible dog lover wants, and health tested parents used for responsible breeding; it would be sad too if pet dogs became unaffordable for people on lower incomes who could make wonderful owners.
     
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  13. Mad Murphy

    Mad Murphy Well-Known Member Registered

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    I agree puppy farms should be stamped out but I dont see how simply banning ads from Ebay will do it. They were around long before ebay and they will find a way to survive if banned from it meanwhile possibly responsible breeders and some recues who use ebay related sites to promote adoption and rescue would also be banned in this blanket change should it happen. BTW Ive had two dogs with good pedigrees who have been sold by 'good' KC registered breeders of championship dogs but the pup ended up being placed in the wrong home with abusive people. (money talks)

    Surely a registration of breeder and registration of the amount of pups born with chip numbers and then the mandatory registraion of the pup with the owner would be better.. I know its like a car and dogs are not things but lets face it there is more paperwork and more checks involved in buying a car than there is a buying a living breathing being so maybe its time to apply similar rules if every dog had a V5 (log book) instead of just a collar and a price tag and that includes those from KC breeders who dont advertise and have waiting lists... We might start to win the war on the huge amount of dumped dogs.
     
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  14. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

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    No, I agree - it would have to be done as one of several measures. And it could play a part in changing behaviours - how most people approach buying a dog. Sites like eBay and Gumtree just make it too darn easy, both for innocent/naive/stupid buyers and ignorant/cruel/criminal sellers.
     
  15. Flobo

    Flobo Active Member Registered Partner

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    Just going back to the the thought of 'intensive farming' of dogs, there are laws in place to protect our farm animals, to a degree, to ensure basic rights in their welfare, why are there not any similar laws as far as I'm aware to protect domestic animals being 'intensively' bred for profit in awful, inhumane conditions? Like I said I haven't got the answers other than an extreme blanket ban of multi litter breeders, or that anyone who wants to breed, and can therefore be held accountable for any animals in their care, has to apply for a licence, but to whom?? It is a frustrating and heartbreaking situation:(
     
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  16. Mad Murphy

    Mad Murphy Well-Known Member Registered

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    @Flobo, your point on farm animals is a good one a couple of years ago HRH princess Anne suggested eating horse meat..
    It wasnt about eating the meat it was simply that if the horse was classified as a farm animal it would have more protection and more that owners might actually take better care of the animals if they thought they could eventually sell them as meat and make profit.
    Im not saying we should eat dogs ( stomach turning at the thought) but if they had better classification and better registration maybe that would help. Many people critizise the RSPCA for not getting involved in cruelty cases but often their hands are tied because the law only says the dogs should be given a shelter food and water. Regardless of how awful it is as long as that is provided and the animal is not being visibly abused then there is nothing they can do.
     
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  17. Flobo

    Flobo Active Member Registered Partner

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    You are right about the RSPCA, they do get a lot of flack and without laws to back them up their hands are tied as you say, and even if they successfully get a case of cruelty/neglect to court the sentences are nowhere near harsh enough( it's only an animal afterall...)which must be soul destroying for them.
     
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  18. merlina

    merlina Active Member Registered

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    Puppy farms are a real problem in Wales (I speak as a Welsh person who has campaigned against them) and I feel any easy way of selling their wretched produce on the net just encourages them. Therefore Gumtree etc needs regulation. I know the argument that people on low incomes can't afford hundreds for a good pedigree puppy- but what happens to the £50 pup when it gets ill and needs expensive treatment? Either it's dumped on the street, on a rescue or left to suffer.
     
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  19. Nanny71

    Nanny71 Active Member Registered

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    I read all these and theoretically I agree but Dudley came from a Gumtree advert. Can't imagine life without him now.
     
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  20. Nanny71

    Nanny71 Active Member Registered

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    We paid £200 for Dudley, which I know is cheap. He is obviously not a pedigree dog at that price, neither is he a designer dog such as a cockerpoo or labradoodle which people buy for ridiculously inflated prices because they have a fancy name.
    A woman who walks her cockerpoo where I do, is not having the bitch spayed because she says she can make a lot of money if she breeds her to another cockerpoo. I believe that these next generation mixed breeds will lead to many problems in the future, particularly when we get third and fourth generation of these mixed breeds. Basically they are mongrels.
    This particular lady is the type who will sell a puppy from her house with no other thought than the money she will be making.
    Having said all that non pedigree dogs can be wonderful animals. Paying a lot of money does not guarantee a good dog.
     
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