Another dog indoor wee problem.

[Rupert Barnes]

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My wife and I have a Young Collie but have just inherited a 10yr old Jack Russel from my late parents. He wasnt brilliantly house trained or castrated when we had him, as he lived on a farm and was the only dog.
Since being with us, 6 months, we have got his house training much better and had the snip.
I go away quite a lot and both dogs sleep on the bed with my wife but when I am home both dogs are not allowed in the bedroom and have to make do with anywhere downstairs. The collie is not bothered but the JR wee's and Poos in the hall and kitchen during the night if not on the bed. He has started scratching at the bedroom door and barking as well if not allowed in the bedroom. The nights he sleeps on the bed there is no accident and he could get of to do so if he wanted. They are not allowed in at night without going to the toilet so its not incontenance. He is generally quite an attention seeking dog, as JR's can be and the Collie has let him be in charge, but then the collie is a big softy so anyone could be in charge of him.

Thanks

 

[Rupert Barnes]

He did only have the snip in the middle of January.

 

[JoanneF]

I think you probably know the answer? He is obviously so upset at being excluded that he can't control his toilet.

Can you relent on allowing him in the bedroom? That appears to resolve the toileting problem.

 

[Rupert Barnes]

I suspect he will just to it every night.

 

[JoanneF]

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, do you mean you will just accept that he is going to toilet because you can't have him with you?

If so, please do recognise that the toileting could be just the outward symptom of a deeper rooted problem.

 

[Flobo]

I think that you have to remember that he had 10years living with your parents and probably a completely different way of life, so as well as the loss of your parents, everything else has changed for him. If he needs the security of being close at night and he gets that when you are away, how about a middle ground of having his bed in your bedroom for him, when you are home?( if you aren't happy with him being on the bed?)His toileting sounds like an emotional problem to me if he only does it when he's suddenly(to him) not allowed in the bedroom when you are there and then allowed when you are not. It must be confusing for him but your collie is used to that routine.

 

[Hemlock]

As he has only just had the surgery, he will be feeling even more at sea than his total change of home and humans has created (this is NOT criticism but observation). This is probably at the root of his issues, though you do say he wasn't great at being clean in the house anyway.

I'd be inclined to have him in the bedroom for now. When he has had time to adjust to his new circumstances, he may choose to sleep elsewhere, and with this in mind I suggest you invest in a sensationally comfortable dog bed in the same room. As the year moves on and the weather gets warmer, he may choose to sleep on his bed rather than in yours - or he may not. Meanwhile, although I hear you when you say the dogs are emptied out before bed, do you go with them and make sure or do you just put them outside? A 10-minute walk outside your garden may help him to empty out properly. But multiple bowel movements are indicative of stress, and don't underestimate how the whole veterinary experience has made him nervous too.

 

[Rupert Barnes]

Thanks for the replies.
I agree he is probably ansious and needs somewhere with close people. We have had him on and off before over the last 10 years so we are no strangers to him and in the last year also when he couldnt be looked after. The only problem with suggestions is that he will not sleep on a bed on the floor, we have tried that and there is not room for all four of us on the bed, as it would not be fair to shut the collie out and not the JR.

Its either ansiery or he is trying to mark his territory around the collie or myself but doesnt feel the need to do so when I'm not at home.

 

[JoanneF]

Have you considered something like this?

https://www.smythstoys.com/uk/en-gb/baby/cots-cribs-and-bedding/cot-beds-and-bedside-cribs/bedside-cribs/nested-cozi-sleeper/p/216877?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=surfaces_across_google&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA_OetBhAtEiwAPTeQZz1xErrqwM5KUuqQstzmjlkF0M9tVz2VMkdD6DMyzmcc9G5c6tyUGRoCJNQQAvD_BwE

 

[JudyN]

Letting him sleep on your bed and not allowing the collie in the bedroom might feel wrong, but may not be a problem at all. The collie's sleeping arrangements, which he is used to, won't change, and dogs don't think 'Hmmm, they're allowed bedroom privileges, that's so not fair.' It doesn't sound like a territory issue at all - most dogs would find it confusing to be allowed to sleep on their owners' beds some nights but not others.

 

[colettedb]

It sounds like a difficult situation for all involved- have you thought of a crate in your bedroom with his bedding and a few comfort toys- so he is close but has his own space? I know he is old but may adapt to that easier than complete lock out when you are home.

 

[JoanneF]

It sounds like a difficult situation for all involved- have you thought of a crate in your bedroom with his bedding and a few comfort toys- so he is close but has his own space? I know he is old but may adapt to that easier than complete lock out when you are home.

That's great, as long as the crate doesn't create more anxiety. It would depend on whether he is crate trained, or whether the OP can commit to training it (we do have an excellent guide that we can share if they want to do that).

 

[Rupert Barnes]

Little update
We have put his little bed/basket (not Crate) in the bedroom. The door is not is not shut and both dogs can sleep in the bedroom when they like. The first night the JR desperately wanted to be with us but we put him in his basket by our side. He seemed ok. The collie doesnt seem bothered by any of it at all.

We shall see what happens the next few nights.

 

[Rupert Barnes]

Further update.
Both dogs can come into the bedroom, although we dont let them on the bed til morning.
There is now no anxiety at all. Both dogs go out last thing at night and go to the toilet.
We have put a camera up downstairs to check the time of things and the JR is still weeing and pooing, in the middle of the night. LAst night it was at 01:45 so not a long way into the night, considering he went to bed at 23:15. The night before it was at 05:50. He is not asking to go out, or is so bad at it we do not notice, but we are tuned into hearing him making his noises.
If he sleeps on the bed all night, it doesn't happen so he can do it.

 

[JudyN]

When he's in the kitchen, does he seem to come alert and maybe pace a bit before toileting, and does he then continue to wander? Or does he wake, have a calm pee/poo, and then settle straight back down again?

If the former, then there may be something that's disturbing him, e.g. fox noises. If the latter, he may just have formed a habit, or can still smell the odour from where he's been before. Or possibly, it's colder in the kitchen which means he's less settled (even if he's chosen to be there). I'm wondering if it would be worth shutting him out of the kitchen at night. He might then just toilet in the hall, or he might choose to sleep with you, or he might wake you up to let him into the kitchen...in which case of course you can let him into the garden instead.

 

[Rupert Barnes]

He actully does it in the hall and he just wanders downstairs does it , wanders around then heads back up to bed. If there was anything disturbing him he would bark, it doesnt normally take anything to get him barking. The only thing about the habit is that its at different times and if we awake in the night sometimes he can be got outside sometimes he doesnt want to.

 

[JudyN]

My mistake - you did say he went in the hall as well as the kitchen. Could you try shutting him in the bedroom with you? It does mean that your collie won't be able to come in unless you let her in, but that's probably better than having your JRT toilet in the night.

 

[Rupert Barnes]

Maybe once the small dog has got over the tioletting routine we can get back to normal.

 

[Flobo]

From your first post you said he wasn't brilliantly house trained when he lived with your parents on the farm, so did he wander at night and toilet then or is this a new behaviour since living with you full time? Was he used to just toileting when he got the urge wherever he was, inside or out, day or night? Did he sleep on the bed with your parents? Sometimes looking to his past routine may help understand his present, especially as he had this routine for 10 years.

My thoughts about him not toileting if he's sleeping on the bed is that it's probably where he feels most secure and actually sleeps like a log until the morning... but I do understand that's not massively helpful if it's not possible...

My only other suggestion would be maybe a short walk around the block before bed may trigger more toileting than just going out in the garden...possibly? Not sure how feasible that would be...

 

[JoanneF]

The common denominator seems to be being allowed on the bed. If that's what stops him from toileting overnight, like you said in one of your early posts, it really points towards him being more settled there; and when he isn't settled it causes him to have accidents.

I don't think you said how long you have had him, but really, anything that makes him feel secure enough that he doesn't need to toilet in the night has got to be a good thing. And if that means sharing your bed with him for a while, surely that's better for all of you?