Younger dog attacking older dog help.

[puggirlie]

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Hi, so I have been having an issue where my younger dog is attacking my older dog and it has ramped up from the odd time to now every day. It happens at night time when we are all on the bed and my older dog will be asleep when all of a sudden my younger dog will sit up from whatever she is doing whether that be sleeping or snuggling down with her teddies look at my older dog and start to growl before pouncing on her. It all happens within a split second but we have gotten better at seeing the signs and grabbing/stopping her before she can attack but I'm at my wits end. We have recently seen a behaviour specialist who told us it was because my older dog is the pack leader and my younger one is fighting for that spot and this is all because my partner and I are not seen as the alphas. So we were told that we need to start being more dominant and not allowing our dogs into our personal space unless we request it, which is extremely hard as my older dog is a rescue from an awful situation and so she has always been spoilt with affection and the fact she was my emotional support animal when I was going through a truly rough patch in my life just makes our bond that much stronger. Of course when we got our puppy she was also just as spoilt with attention and affection as we refuse to play favourites. The specialist suggested not allowing them onto the bed and sofa as they would try and one up each other by getting to higher ground, refusing their attempts at trying to get attention from us, specifically when they come up wanting cuddle and pets, and not giving them attention unless they respond to our commands of coming to us. They said this is because they are taking advantage of us and are doing this on their terms not our which then means they don't see us as their pack leaders. My issue is I am struggling to not allow my dogs up and give them attention when they come to me looking for it, but was told that they don't feel upset with us ignoring and rebuffing them. I then decided to look up about pack mentality and have found so many people saying that it is outdated and doesn't work and can make your dogs situations worse. I need help and advice from others who are more knowledgeable on this subject then I am. At the end of the day I want whats best for my dogs, specifically my older one as she can't fight back as she has no teeth (due to the mistreatment before we got her) so I need to keep her safe, but at the same time I don't want to be using the wrong methods. Please help.
Also I apologise if this isn't very coherent I am tired and writing this late as I am beside myself with worry.

 

[Tinytom]

You are right pack leadership is outdated ..I would stay clear of this so called behaviourist....
I would let your oldie on the bed but wouldn't allow the younger one ...
Could you leave the younger dog in another room at night or have a crate beside your bed for her ....
....Good for you for realising this person was talking absolute rubbish ....
Your younger dog sounds like she is initiating play rather than aggression...?????
What breed is she ....

 

[JudyN]

Please ignore everything your behaviourist said - they are well out of date, and what they advised will not help. You need to manage the situation so the behaviour can't happen. I'd do that in whatever way works - if one dog is happy sleeping on their own bed next to yours, or in a crate, then that's the way to go.

You should also get both of the dogs thoroughly vet-checked - young dogs can turn against older dogs if they sense weakness or illness in the older dog, but also if the young dog has any discomfort they could feel more vulnerable and so want to protect their space more.

 

[puggirlie]

You are right pack leadership is outdated ..I would stay clear of this so called behaviourist....
I would let your oldie on the bed but wouldn't allow the younger one ...
Could you leave the younger dog in another room at night or have a crate beside your bed for her ....
....Good for you for realising this person was talking absolute rubbish ....
Your younger dog sounds like she is initiating play rather than aggression...?????
What breed is she ....

They are pugs. I would like to note he has not told us to hurt the dogs in ways I've seen people say to hold them down and stuff, but I just don't know if I agree that they are always trying to manipulate us for their own benefit and that they don't feel sad about being ignored and not being snuggled anymore. He wants everything to be on our command, and that they only get attention if they come to us 3 seconds after we call for them, they aren't allowed in our personal space or to climb on us as it is considered disrespectful in the dog world and thus they are looking down on us. They are to sleep on their own in their beds downstairs at night. They are not to get attention from people coming into the house until the human has acknowledged us and they have calmed down, once again they must be called over. They are to be rewarded with attention and not treats as he says if they get treats they won't be learning to be submissive as they aren't doing it on their own agenda but rather have been trained to simply act a certain way. The only rough methods he has told us to use is to poke her side when she is in her fixated mode before she attacks so that it will snap her out of it. To grab her by the scruff to get her off my other dog if she makes it to attacking her as picking her up gently isn't going to get her attention or make her see what she has done is wrong, and the last which we got told to do today after an incident (and honestly I hate typing this out) he says when we go to reintroduce them if she is still trying to attack put a slip leash on her and if she goes give her a little quick tug (he also said not to hard, to make sure the leash is at the top of her neck and to not hold her in that position as he doesn't want to strangle or choke her) to discipline her and snap her out of it. We have not done this. He also says the behaviour is going to ramp up before it plateaus and fades out as we are disrupting the hierarchy and they are not going to take that easily as they don't like change. I do want to get a crate as we had a pen for our puppy but she can now jump out of it which makes it pointless. My worry is that by isolating the younger dog she is going to go after my older one more as she sees that she is getting favoured. I will say it's definitely not playing as they do play fight and this is way different and more violent. My partner is more onboard with this all then I am as the dog that is the aggressor is more 'his dog' as it's his first ever dog that we got together, whilst my older is one I came into the relationship with, so he's pretty desperate as if it doesn't work she would be the one who would get rehomed in worst case scenario. He is also more up for trying this method for the 2 months we have been told as since implementing some of the tactics yesterday (the no sofa/bed and no uncommanded attention) the dogs have been more subdued and have been in their dog beds which they never used to do. That being said the younger one has still attacked twice, once yesterday night whilst my older dog was sleeping in front of our feet on the floor (which he said is because she was in our personal space and the other was not ok with this) and this morning when my partner was getting up for work and the younger dog got on the bed and when being taken off she then went for the older, who was sleeping in her dog bed on the floor by my side of the bed) we couldn't get her to calm down and stop so that is why he gave us the newer instructions I listed. He said she attacked this morning as the 'pack' was getting up for the day and my older one was lying about so she took her chance to tell her off or something like that. I hope this has given more insight into what we have been told. I just don't know where to go from here as I feel as though I am on my own with my concerns. I am sorry for rambling and I truly hope this makes sense as my mind is all jumbled up right now. (Also there may have been things that I have missed but I'm quite emotional at the moment so I am struggling to focus and remember everything.)

 

[puggirlie]

Please ignore everything your behaviourist said - they are well out of date, and what they advised will not help. You need to manage the situation so the behaviour can't happen. I'd do that in whatever way works - if one dog is happy sleeping on their own bed next to yours, or in a crate, then that's the way to go.

You should also get both of the dogs thoroughly vet-checked - young dogs can turn against older dogs if they sense weakness or illness in the older dog, but also if the young dog has any discomfort they could feel more vulnerable and so want to protect their space more.

They are both happy to sleep on the bed with us and they snuggle up to us constantly, but my younger one seems to attack more often on the bed as we were told that was basically the best a dog can get or something like that (I'm sorry but I am exhausted and having a hard time recalling what he said exactly). I will look into getting my dog checked out as I too was worried it could be something like this as I have heard of dogs sensing cancer in humans and can sense when a dog falls ill. The two dogs recently both got diarrhoea and that is when it really got out of control as we were doing ok before that, so we thought it was because she was uncomfortable and sick like you said and so she was lashing out but hen she continued we didn't know what to do. Our younger dog was also spayed on the 12th of jan so I wanted to add that for context as well. I have put a lot of extra details in a reply I made to another user if that helps with any more insight.

 

[JudyN]

Yes, the bed is a high-value place, but the idea of 'dominance' and rank has been disproved in most senses of the terms - there is no rigid hierarchy in a group of dogs. Aggression is caused by stress, not by 'rank', and dogs also won't see their humans as subordinate to them, however spoilt they are.

The dog only getting attention on your terms is called NILIF, or 'nothing in life is free'. In some contexts this can work and encourages the dog to listen to you - you get to go on a walk when you stop rushing around the hall like a loony, you get the treat when you do as asked, and you don't give your dog their tea straight away if they start whining for it half an hour early, but to refuse to pet or play with a dog who asks for it is simply ignoring their basic needs, and will make life more stressful - which is likely to increase aggression. Dogs can manipulate us, yes - they have evolved to give us those appealing looks that make it difficult not to give them a titbit, and will beg in whatever way they find works - but you have the bigger brain, so you simply turn the tables, and manipulate them to do what you want. (My crafty dog, on hearing hubby approach the front room, would jump on his sofa purely so hubby would ask him to get off and reward him with a treat. Yes, he was manipulating us, but we were also manipulating him, as we now had a dog who always got off the sofa whenever asked, so we were all happy with the arrangement.)

As for physical punishment such as being poked or roughly picked up by the scruff of the neck to show that they had done wrong - well, in your dog's brain, what they had done was perfectly natural and reasonable. They already felt some anxiety, hence the need to react, and an unpleasant response from you would simply add to that anxiety. If they did manage to stop the attack because they knew it would lead to something unpleasant, they would be even more stressed, and if they did then boil over, the attack would likely be worse. What positive training sets out to do is not to simply correct the behaviour, but to look at why it happened, what emotions were behind it, and how you can manage the dog's environment so they are comfortable and relaxed and don't feel the need to act in that way. Managing the situation so prevent the problematic situations can be enough to stop the emotions arising in the first place, so everyone can live happily together.

Note that your dog being spayed will almost certainly have introduced more anxiety - both dogs will know that 'something' happened - so hopefully this will all calm down in the future, as long as you can prevent the incidents in the short term.

There's more about the dominance myth here: The Truth About Dominance | Positively.com

And I've found an excellent post about NILIF by the behaviourist Emma Judson on another forum - it explains the pros, cons and limitations really well (the posts below that one are really worth a read too): https://forum.positively.com/viewtopic.php?p=21123&sid=b4c70fc791b4173a543235eb3b1073af#p21123

 

[puggirlie]

Yes, the bed is a high-value place, but the idea of 'dominance' and rank has been disproved in most senses of the terms - there is no rigid hierarchy in a group of dogs. Aggression is caused by stress, not by 'rank', and dogs also won't see their humans as subordinate to them, however spoilt they are.

The dog only getting attention on your terms is called NILIF, or 'nothing in life is free'. In some contexts this can work and encourages the dog to listen to you - you get to go on a walk when you stop rushing around the hall like a loony, you get the treat when you do as asked, and you don't give your dog their tea straight away if they start whining for it half an hour early, but to refuse to pet or play with a dog who asks for it is simply ignoring their basic needs, and will make life more stressful - which is likely to increase aggression. Dogs can manipulate us, yes - they have evolved to give us those appealing looks that make it difficult not to give them a titbit, and will beg in whatever way they find works - but you have the bigger brain, so you simply turn the tables, and manipulate them to do what you want. (My crafty dog, on hearing hubby approach the front room, would jump on his sofa purely so hubby would ask him to get off and reward him with a treat. Yes, he was manipulating us, but we were also manipulating him, as we now had a dog who always got off the sofa whenever asked, so we were all happy with the arrangement.)

As for physical punishment such as being poked or roughly picked up by the scruff of the neck to show that they had done wrong - well, in your dog's brain, what they had done was perfectly natural and reasonable. They already felt some anxiety, hence the need to react, and an unpleasant response from you would simply add to that anxiety. If they did manage to stop the attack because they knew it would lead to something unpleasant, they would be even more stressed, and if they did then boil over, the attack would likely be worse. What positive training sets out to do is not to simply correct the behaviour, but to look at why it happened, what emotions were behind it, and how you can manage the dog's environment so they are comfortable and relaxed and don't feel the need to act in that way. Managing the situation so prevent the problematic situations can be enough to stop the emotions arising in the first place, so everyone can live happily together.

Note that your dog being spayed will almost certainly have introduced more anxiety - both dogs will know that 'something' happened - so hopefully this will all calm down in the future, as long as you can prevent the incidents in the short term.

Thank you for this, seriously. I will take on what you have said and read the articles you have linked. If it is alright with you could I message you the email he sent me laying out his thinking and what we should do to get your feedback so I can then pass it on to my partner. Also what would you suggest in its place? I would like to hear anything that may help. Thank you again!

 

[JudyN]

You could, but I'm not sure I'd be able to add anything to what I've already written (I'm also not an expert and haven't had two dogs at the same time). I think your first step should be simply avoiding the flashpoints, and making sure what each one needs in the way of affection. If you feel your younger dog is ignoring you at times, it would be good to do a little training to remedy this - I really like impulse control, as it gets the dog to focus on and listen to you so well - search for the video 'It's Yer Choice' on YouTube. Also learn to watch her body language so the moment you see any signs of tension when she's close to your older dog you can distract her, call her to you, do a quick game to defuse the situation, for instance.

Have a good read of the links and show them to your partner, and then ask if there's anything that still isn't clear.

 

[Hemlock]

JudyN's advice is spot on and the so-called behaviourist you used in good faith has given truly appalling advice. Do get in touch with Emma - she is pure gold - she will help you immensely. We are also here for you, and some of us are very experienced in dog behaviour. It's lovely that you are so committed to your dogs, and with the right help all of you will feel much better.

 

[JudyN]

This is Emma's website: Home | thecanineconsultants