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The Secret Affair Litter

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No this wasn't a planned mating, but I don't think I should have to hide them away as 'dirty lil secrets' they are very healthy outgoing puppies with great temperments which both the sire & Dam share, and I don't feel ashamed about them at all!! I had planned on getting the bitch desexed when I caught the bitch & dog together in a tie on her 8th day of her season. (as I also had a planned mating from my other bitch at the time (an dear I say I planned mating her to a dog that was related to her!!) but this planned mating didn't happen as when I sent her away she stressed out too much and went out of season.)

So then decided to let the bitch have the litter (the bitch is co owned with her breeder, so she was also aware of the situation).

I'm sure there are others on this forum that have done a close breeding, but after all this response they will keep it to themselves. I know of breeders that have done brother/sister mother/son father/daughter, matings some planned, some not, its not the end of the world if it happens, yes it can bring out the bad in the lines- but also the good. Inbreeding can be a valuable tool, but you need have knowledge of the lines.

inbred/linebred/outcross....it dosen't matter if you don't know what you are doing when you put a dog and a bitch together, it can be a disaster....people need to get their head's out of the clouds on this issue and stop comparing dogs to human and the word 'Incest'. When they do, they will stop flaming breeders who choose to use this method, and successfully, and realise that their own judgement of genetics is at fault, not the breeders decision to put a brother/sister, father/daughter, mother/sun.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion ~ but not everyone has to agree with it.
 
Wayward_Angel said:
No this wasn't a planned mating, but I don't think I should have to hide them away as 'dirty lil secrets' they are very healthy outgoing puppies with great temperments which both the sire & Dam share, and I don't feel ashamed about them at all!! I had planned on getting the bitch desexed when I caught the bitch & dog together in a tie on her 8th day of her season. (as I also had a planned mating from my other bitch at the time (an dear I say I planned mating her to a dog that was related to her!!) but this planned mating didn't happen as when I sent her away she stressed out too much and went out of season.)  So then decided to let the bitch have the litter (the bitch is co owned with her breeder, so she was also aware of the situation).

I'm sure there are others on this forum that have done a close breeding, but after all this response they will keep it to themselves.  I know of breeders that have done brother/sister mother/son father/daughter, matings some planned, some not, its not the end of the world if it happens, yes it can bring out the bad in the lines- but also the good.  Inbreeding can be a valuable tool, but you need have knowledge of the lines.

inbred/linebred/outcross....it dosen't matter if you don't know what you are doing when you put a dog and a bitch together, it can be a disaster....people need to get their head's out of the clouds on this issue and stop comparing dogs to human and the word 'Incest'. When they do, they will stop flaming breeders who choose to use this method, and successfully, and realise that their own judgement of genetics is at fault, not the breeders decision to put a brother/sister, father/daughter, mother/sun.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion ~ but not everyone has to agree with it.

Click to expand...
This has happened and they are your puppies, of course many close mating have bred on well with no problems. OUT CROSS MATINGS have had their share of problems, a sensible breeder will know the way forward, there is no need for them to be taken out of a breeding programme unless there have been problems.
 
This is not about an "opinion" about genetics it is about scientific facts. This close in-breeding is dangerous in terms of health. These are not theories, they are backed up by the work of veterinary geneticists.

When you say any mating can be a "disaster" do you mean in terms of how well the progeny do in the show ring or how bad the long term health implications will be?

JAMES
 
jthatton said:
This is not about an "opinion" about genetics it is about scientific facts. This close in-breeding is dangerous in terms of health. These are not theories, they are backed up by the work of veterinary geneticists.
When you say any mating can be a "disaster" do you mean in terms of how well the progeny do in the show ring or how bad the long term health implications will be?

JAMES

Click to expand...
Yeah and I do not agree with everything a vet has to say!!!!

Health/temperment/&

conformation

no one can see into the future, we don't know what every breeding is going to produce. you gotta take the good with the bad sometimes.
 
patsy said:
Wayward_Angel said:
No this wasn't a planned mating, but I don't think I should have to hide them away as 'dirty lil secrets' they are very healthy outgoing puppies with great temperments which both the sire & Dam share, and I don't feel ashamed about them at all!! I had planned on getting the bitch desexed when I caught the bitch & dog together in a tie on her 8th day of her season. (as I also had a planned mating from my other bitch at the time (an dear I say I planned mating her to a dog that was related to her!!) but this planned mating didn't happen as when I sent her away she stressed out too much and went out of season.)  So then decided to let the bitch have the litter (the bitch is co owned with her breeder, so she was also aware of the situation).

I'm sure there are others on this forum that have done a close breeding, but after all this response they will keep it to themselves.  I know of breeders that have done brother/sister mother/son father/daughter, matings some planned, some not, its not the end of the world if it happens, yes it can bring out the bad in the lines- but also the good.   Inbreeding can be a valuable tool, but you need have knowledge of the lines.

inbred/linebred/outcross....it dosen't matter if you don't know what you are doing when you put a dog and a bitch together, it can be a disaster....people need to get their head's out of the clouds on this issue and stop comparing dogs to human and the word 'Incest'. When they do, they will stop flaming breeders who choose to use this method, and successfully, and realise that their own judgement of genetics is at fault, not the breeders decision to put a brother/sister, father/daughter, mother/sun.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion ~ but not everyone has to agree with it.

Click to expand...
This has happened and they are your puppies, of course many close mating have bred on well with no problems. OUT CROSS MATINGS have had their share of problems, a sensible breeder will know the way forward, there is no need for them to be taken out of a breeding programme unless there have been problems.

Click to expand...

At last some common sense! Well said Patsy.
 
really makes me wonder how dogs survived before we ( humans ) came along :- "

how many dogs in the wild of the past and today interbred ???? of course no one can say but do you really think they care if its a brother / sister etc ? no , its the survival of the fittest , yes i know we have domesticated them and we should "do our best " to promote healthy puppies but if the sire and dam are fit , healthy and trouble free and so are all the lines behind them , whats the problem :blink:
 
aslan said:
cyfrin said:
Firstly - to sell the pups 'quietly' is wrong!  Sell them yes but make the new owners aware that the pups are 'accidents'  Secondly - Any future breeding ??  Not with the same sire & dam I hope!

 

I agree this has become an emotive subject, but my problem is with the poster who told us what had happened & made light of it. 

I hope to see the original poster return with comments......we have all said our piece!

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Cyfrin I notice you are a fairly new member to the forum and your signature shows no whippets. Are you a pedigree dog breeder?

You've been fairly quick to pounce with your views. Ok - inbred litters are not what we desire but as I've said in the other thread on this topic - sometimes despite our very best efforts to avoid it, it happens. At least Katrina has been open and honest about it.

Katrina made it clear it was a mistake mating - not intended. So it's highly unlikely she would do it again intentionally as your post above suggests.

I think some of you could take your lead from Cathie and be kinder/more tactful in the expression of your opinions and even in the expression of fact. We want to keep people in the breed so that they can be educated, not make them feel worthless and drive them away at the first mistake they make.

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Hi again-Yes I am a fairly new member but have no ulterior motive with my comments. I am a passionate dog owner (I have a lurcher & border collie X right now who are both rescues) who takes an interest in everything canine! I would have replied to that post by WA whether she had whippets or any other breed! Does my not having whippets preclude me from having an opinion? I don't think so!

If WA is surprised by my comments, or other posters that agree with me, then maybe it has helped her look at things from a different perspective.......

BTW - you ask if I am a pedigree dog breeder.....the answer is NO.
 
saraquele said:
really makes me wonder how dogs survived before we ( humans ) came along  :- "
how many dogs in the wild of the past and today interbred ???? of course no one can say but do you really think they care if its a brother / sister etc ? no , its the survival of the fittest , yes i know we have domesticated them and we should "do our best " to promote healthy puppies but if the sire and dam are fit , healthy and trouble free and so are all the lines behind them , whats the problem  :blink:

Click to expand...
In the past many breeders did inbreed, very close sometimes. Sometimes for generations. And produced some outstanding dogs, so famous and so important in breeding, that almost all whippets today go back to them. At the same time it means that the background of our dogs is already inbred and less diverse than it would be in a pack of wild dogs. Because of that when we inbreed current dogs, we do not start with nothing - our dogs are already inbred, more or less. It is less safe to inbreed now than it was in the past.

The other problem is that even if the dam and sire are fit and without any problems, they carry some problem genes. Every animal carries. About 4-5 per individual. When we inbreed, we increase the chance that two bad genes from one pair meet and create problems.
 
As regards the puppies - my personal opinion is that neutering them and selling as pets would be the safest option. They come from very popular and widely spread family. Their double grandfather is a dog who produced a lot of progeny, so removing them from breeding pool would not be an loss in genetic terms for sure. Their parents can have another, better planned litters, so they are not the only chance to breed form this line at this kennel.

I would consider using them in breeding program only if they were of truly outstanding quality, and if I was intending to do so, I would wait at least 4-5 years before using them, to have time for checking health of all the litter. Most congenital diseases become apparent during first 5 years of life (not all, but with a bitch waiting longer could be risky). If healthy by this time (all the litter), I might consider using one of them with unrelated partner, and check again health state of all the litter during next years. But for me they should be really really outstanding to consider it, not just ok dogs.

As regarding comparing dogs to humans - it is not about childish anthropomorphism at all (BTW calling this unplanned mating "secret afair" was an anthropomorphism). I do not think the puppies will suffer from mental problems, when the playmates in the park would tell them they come from incest relations. It is obvious dogs do not have culture, preventing them from matings inside the family, or even care about it. But it does not mean the genetics of the dog and of the human species is different. General genetic rules are the same in all living organism, bacteria included. Both species being mammals, they share thousands genes in exactly the same form and order. And they share all the mechanism of heredity.
 
Thank you Natalia, I am so glad you take the time to post
 
cyfrin said:
Hi again-Yes I am a fairly new member but have no ulterior motive with my comments. I am a passionate dog owner (I have a lurcher & border collie X right now who are both rescues) who takes an interest in everything canine!  I would have replied to that post by WA whether she had whippets or any other breed!  Does my not having whippets preclude me from having an opinion? I don't think so!
Of course it doesn't. Everybody is welcome to an opinion and everybody is welcome to state fact and help educate.  It's the manner in which it's done that I sometimes have concern with. 

In regards to your PM, I was not questioning your validity - I just haven't noticed much of you on the forum prior to this and simply wanted to know the answers to those questions.

BTW - you ask if I am a pedigree dog breeder.....the answer is NO.

Thank you for answering.

Click to expand...
 
saraquele said:
really makes me wonder how dogs survived before we ( humans ) came along  :- "
how many dogs in the wild of the past and today interbred ???? of course no one can say but do you really think they care if its a brother / sister etc ? no , its the survival of the fittest , yes i know we have domesticated them and we should "do our best " to promote healthy puppies but if the sire and dam are fit , healthy and trouble free and so are all the lines behind them , whats the problem  :blink:

Click to expand...

Wild animals to have mechanisms to safeguard their genetic diversity. Wild dogs and wolf to roam widely and most packs expel juvenile males who than move of to a territory of unrelated/less related packs.

It has been observed for many years now that populations of wild animals that crash are more likely than not badly inbred. As genetic testing became more accessible, many wild animals are being DNA tested.

Tasmanian devils facial tumours cancers are a perfect example what happens to badly inbred populations. Recent research from the University of Sydney has shown that the infectious facial cancer may be able to spread because of vanishingly low genetic diversity in devil immune genes (MHC class I and II) — raising questions about how well small, and potentially inbred, populations of animals are able to survive.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Seraphina said:
saraquele said:
really makes me wonder how dogs survived before we ( humans ) came along  :- "
how many dogs in the wild of the past and today interbred ???? of course no one can say but do you really think they care if its a brother / sister etc ? no , its the survival of the fittest , yes i know we have domesticated them and we should "do our best " to promote healthy puppies but if the sire and dam are fit , healthy and trouble free and so are all the lines behind them , whats the problem  :blink:

Click to expand...

Wild animals to have mechanisms to safeguard their genetic diversity. Wild dogs and wolf to roam widely and most packs expel juvenile males who than move of to a territory of unrelated/less related packs.

It has been observed for many years now that populations of wild animals that crash are more likely than not badly inbred. As genetic testing became more accessible, many wild animals are being DNA tested.

Tasmanian devils facial tumours cancers are a perfect example what happens to badly inbred populations. Recent research from the University of Sydney has shown that the infectious facial cancer may be able to spread because of vanishingly low genetic diversity in devil immune genes (MHC class I and II) — raising questions about how well small, and potentially inbred, populations of animals are able to survive.

Click to expand...
interesting ,thank you , so do tazmanian devils have the same genetics as dogs ?
 
When I was holidaying (is that a word? :b ) at Brampton Island (a small resort island off of queensland, Australia) a few years back (cough 1995) and noticed that half the kangaroo population there had bad cataracts, they were blind. When I enquired about it they said it was due to them being an isolated population that have inbred over generations. No idea if they have done anything about this population since.

There is also Koala population on French island that is probably the healthiest in Australia as they have been isolated and chlamydia free. They use the Koalas from this island to restock diminished populations elsewhere.

Good luck with your puppies :thumbsup: . Compared to alot of other breeds, Whippets are very healthy so at least you have that in your favor.
 
saraquele said:
interesting ,thank you ,  so do tazmanian devils have the same genetics as dogs ?
Click to expand...
What do you mean by "same genetics"? Naturally there is a difference in genes that make each species different form each other. However, all living things do have the same basic genetic rules. Humans and chimpanzees have some 98% of genes that are the same.

The implication of being inbred are pretty much same for any species of animals, from humans to simple amoeba.
 
Seraphina said:
saraquele said:
interesting ,thank you ,  so do tazmanian devils have the same genetics as dogs ?
Click to expand...
What do you mean by "same genetics"? Naturally there is a difference in genes that make each species different form each other. However, all living things do have the same basic genetic rules. Humans and chimpanzees have some 98% of genes that are the same.

The implication of being inbred are pretty much same for any species of animals, from humans to simple amoeba.

Click to expand...
thats what i was trying to get at but its early here and i couldnt fine the words :D

i know a lot of humans who are simple amoebas :oops: :lol: :lol:
 
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