1st Cross Collie- Greyhounds

[gutsey]

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Hello everyone just wanted to know of your opinions on this breed,im thinkink of getting one,my partner wants to work it, mostly on lamp.maybe a bit with ferrets,where we live the ground is heavy and finer boned dogs he`s had have struggled with the going a bit,also we have our greyhound bitch which he would like to cross with him when he were older.making 3/4 grey 1/4 collie i think (is that right..?)

 

[AdamNewbs]

Hi, yeah i havent seen any collie crosses out ferreting just yet (well my dads dogs out ferreting anyway). Although i know that the collie crosses we have kept have all been very good on the lamp, they usually retrieve and recall very well instead of doing a lap of honour :- " .

 

[Caravan Monster]

Careful gutsey! You might start people off about Han###k, everyone' s favourite collie lurcher breeder. I know three collie crosses from here. The border first cross is so hyper that it took some serious patience to get to a basic standard of obedience and the 'legendary' collie nose that this cross is supposed to have, never made contact with this dog' s brain: hunting instinct is shall we say limited. The beardie second cross is a very sweet dog, but infuriating to work: no matter how many times you go through and adapt the ferreting training program, she picks up the idea for a little while and then stops concentrating and wanders off. Lamping wise, she is probably the slowest dog I have ever seen despite being three quarter greyhound, although she is very good at putting every rabbit in the field to ground by totally ignoring recall (her owner succesfully trained two dogs to a good working standard prior to this one). The third is a beardie/ border second cross, which is not worked. This dog makes an OK pet, but working would be a no- no because she barks so much for no clear reason ( I would say she is a well adjusted dog and don' t think this barking is down to lack of training or behavioural problems). Strangely, I would say that the first cross is the fastest of these three dogs.

I expect that a very skilled and talented trainer could make something of these dogs, and I' m not saying that there aren' t good lurchers bred this way, but there are easier types of dogs about. This idea of collie crosses only being bred from greyhounds has more to do with the economics of commercial breeding than producing quality lurchers. If you were planning to breed a working lurcher would you cross a sheep dog to a racing dog, or use proven worker to proven worker? It may take some finding, but I would look into other ways of finding a heavily built collie type lurcher. Sorry to be negative, whatever you do, I hope you don' t experience the disappointment these owners have felt.

 

[gutsey]

Thanks c/m, wasn`t a negative responce you were just giving a honest reply which is what i wanted.as for mr Han***k are his dogs good/bad i`ve heard srories from both sides of the fence.

You said there are easier types about what would you suggest..?

 

[Caravan Monster]

If you would like to learn how K9ers feel about the Hancock set up, enter his name into the 'search topic' on this page, and you can spend many hours discovering just how angry people can get. I would summarise with a question, is it justifiable to support what, so far as I know, is the only large scale commercial lurcher breeder in this country when the running dog rescues are always full up? Hancock himself admits that a substantial proportion of the dogs he breeds end up in rescue.

Regarding collies, and I can speak from experience here, if you do not have a lot of work for them, they will apply their exceptional intelligence and high energy levels to being a pain. If a collie has plenty of work, such as daily farm work, they are perhaps the best of dogs. Problems often happen when farmers sell working collie pups to the unwary as pets, and you can see them dragging their new owners around the village, and hear them barking all day long whilst their owners are at work.

When bred to a greyhound, things may not go as you expect (or have been led to believe by well known fieldsports authors). You might end up with what is essentially a slow greyhound with strong feet and very high energy levels.

If I were looking for a lurcher with a lot of collie blood in it, I would think about whether I really did have enough work for such a demanding type of lurcher. I would then do a lot of research into finding caring collie lurcher enthusiasts who are breeding from their best lurchers for their own use. I expect that there will be a number of collie lurcher enthusiasts on K9 who can give much more in depth advice from a broad spectrum of experience. Perhaps start a topic along the lines of 'which type of collie lurchers are the best?' . Some of the more hunting focussed forums might be helpful too.

I have gone on at such length about this because I know how bad things can go when the wrong collie lurcher is matched to the wrong owner, and it is no fun for dog or owner. Please do plenty of research first, meet as many dogs as you can, and be absolutely sure before commiting to one. :thumbsup:

 

[rew]

The beardie second cross is a very sweet dog, but infuriating to work: no matter how many times you go through and adapt the ferreting training program, she picks up the idea for a little while and then stops concentrating and wanders off. Lamping wise, she is probably the slowest dog I have ever seen despite being three quarter greyhound, although she is very good at putting every rabbit in the field to ground by totally ignoring recall (her owner succesfully trained two dogs to a good working standard prior to this one).

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very true words our 3/4 grey x 1/4 beardie will not retrieve rabbits wheather there lamped or caught in the day even though she will retieve anything thrown for her including a rabbit fur dummy.she is also not the fastest lamp dog and has a tendancy to pick her own runs.she also used to put every rabbit to ground but know her recall is good.we would never have another one.

good hunting

rew

 

[greengoatman]

I do not know much about collie greyhound crosses, i have only worked them on rat, rabbit and any thing else that annoys me. 43 years ago I was presented with a first cross collis/greyhound who was trained for me by her breeder. If she did not stop at a hole there was nothing in it, if i failed to net a hole i would generally find the bitch gaurding it and I never lost a ferret to her. She was never lamped and never run against fox or hare. When the breeder finished traing her (at two and a half years old) I asked the secret. His answer was a) good selection, the source collie dog needs to be an intelligent worker and in the case of a 1/2 bred being used for the 3/4 bred that also needs to be an inteligent worker. If you find a good bloodline stick to it and take your time selecting a new pup, the prettiest pup may not be the brightest. b) good training training a ferreting lurcher takes a lot of time and the dog must know that no means no before it is let anywhere near a ferret. I have heard stories of ferreting dogs picking up ferrets and returning them to the owner I have also heard about fairies but seen neither. I teach my dogs to ignore ferrets and back off when they surface. c) patience the collie lurcher takes a long time to mature, they are seldom much good before they are two and a half years old. d) train them with an older, well trained dog, teach them to honuor the older dog. In the years since I have kept to his advice and have found the border collie/greyhound crosses exceptional, I prefer a 3/4 bred around 24 inches high. My dogs have done more lamping as the years have gone on and they do take a little time to pick up the knack but they do the job well enough.

My experience of collie/greyhound owners is that they buy an eight week old pup, keep it in the house where it picks up every bad habit under the sun, spend very little time on basic training and provide no discipine what so ever. They expect the dog to start working before it is a year old and the dog finishes in a rescue centre at 18 months. One should not blame David Hancock for the vast numbers of his puppies that need rescueing each year, it is the stupid beggars who have to much money and to little sense and go out and buy his dogs expecting them to be something they are not.

 

[oldblueeye]

I do not know much about collie greyhound crosses, i have only worked them on rat, rabbit and any thing else that annoys me. 43 years ago I was presented with a first cross collis/greyhound who was trained for me by her breeder. If she did not stop at a hole there was nothing in it, if i failed to net a hole i would generally find the bitch gaurding it and I never lost a ferret to her. She was never lamped and never run against fox or hare. When the breeder finished traing her (at two and a half years old) I asked the secret. His answer was a) good selection, the source collie dog needs to be an intelligent worker and in the case of a 1/2 bred being used for the 3/4 bred that also needs to be an inteligent worker. If you find a good bloodline stick to it and take your time selecting a new pup, the prettiest pup may not be the brightest. b) good training training a ferreting lurcher takes a lot of time and the dog must know that no means no before it is let anywhere near a ferret. I have heard stories of ferreting dogs picking up ferrets and returning them to the owner I have also heard about fairies but seen neither. I teach my dogs to ignore ferrets and back off when they surface. c) patience the collie lurcher takes a long time to mature, they are seldom much good before they are two and a half years old. d) train them with an older, well trained dog, teach them to honuor the older dog. In the years since I have kept to his advice and have found the border collie/greyhound crosses exceptional, I prefer a 3/4 bred around 24 inches high. My dogs have done more lamping as the years have gone on and they do take a little time to pick up the knack but they do the job well enough.My experience of collie/greyhound owners is that they buy an eight week old pup, keep it in the house where it picks up every bad habit under the sun, spend very little time on basic training and provide no discipine what so ever. They expect the dog to start working before it is a year old and the dog finishes in a rescue centre at 18 months. One should not blame David Hancock for the vast numbers of his puppies that need rescueing each year, it is the stupid beggars who have to much money and to little sense and go out and buy his dogs expecting them to be something they are not.

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Some interesting and very valid points there greengoatman, but I totally disagree about training a collie cross lurcher or any dog for that matter in the presence of another. If it works for you than thats fine but in my experience any dog needs as little distractions as possible while been trained and it certainly doesn't need another dog that it thinks would be more fun to play with than to listen to it's trainer.

You're right with the rescue situation, the one reason so many end up in rescues is nothing to do with who bred them it's more a case of the owners not understanding a dog that in a lot of cases is more intelligent than the person trying to train it!!.

Cheers

OBE

 

[AdamNewbs]

Can i just say that greengoatman has hit the nail on the head. My dad has been keeping dogs for many years nwo started when he was just a kid, just as im doing, he started with a whippet x grey, and he has tried many different lurcher corsses but even now after 20 ro so years of working dogs he always say the odg we have today that he got from Hancock is the best dog hes ever had working, she doesnt get ferreted but gets lamped, runs rabbits and hares (Pre-ban ofc).

I told my dad of the things said about hancock and to be truthful, a dog only turns out on how much effort you put into it, you can go buy a hancock dog and let it sit in the agrden not getting trained or no discipline, dont expect that dog to be such a good worker. So before you go blaming hancock, its not this dogs thats the problem, ITS THE OWNER!

 

[BeeJay]

Well IMO if a responsible breeder was to find that a high percentage of their pups end up in rescue then they should be having a major rethink about who they sell their pups to and also as to whether they should be breeding at all.

Personally the thought that my pups were ending up being dumped and unwanted at an early age and some of 'em ending up that way have been a only few months old would stop me from breeding pups. The pups wouldn't be being dumped by bad owners if they hadn't been sold to 'em in the first place and there is one way that will stop that happening and that is not to breed 'em in the first place.

 

[AdamNewbs]

But why should he stop breeding all together, yes you have a very good point Beejay, but if he enjoys breeding his dogs, then why should he stop because some people are buying working dogs and not training them right? Or trying to make them into house pets? I do agree with you in a way though, i think he should inquire into the buyers interests in the dog whether they are or arent going to work the dog etc. Also, may i add that some fo his dogs when treated right and dispplined turn out very well :thumbsup: .

 

[Caravan Monster]

I think that everyone is making the same points in different ways here. Collie crosses are a demanding type of lurcher and seem to require a very committed and skilled owner, who has a good idea of their requirements. With regard to breeding and selecting, I especially agree with the advice of the trainer greengoatman knew, particularly about using a collie or lurcher that you know to be a good worker. Remember though, first and second crosses may breed level physically, and there are some good ones, but they do not always inherit the desperate to please and obey parts of the collie' s brain, or the greyhound's laid back nature.

With regard to Hancock, he is a COMMERCIAL breeder and advertises his dogs as 'work, show or pet' ie for anyone who will buy them- it would not be good business sense to vet potential buyers. I think that a good number of first time lurcher owners set out with the best intentions in the world. They start by researching the subject, click on Amazon, and confronted with a wealth of Plummer books, buy some (he wrote the most, so must be the best adviser). After reading 'Merle', they realise that the half cross must be the one to go for. The constant sneaky references to the aforementioned breeder lead them to think that they have hit upon some littleknown and valuable information about who is the best breeder. Off they go to Birmingham and are met with courteous and knowledgable breeders who are also expert in handling their customers. It' s some time later, after the cheque has cleared, that the trouble begins and they realise this type of lurcher is not for everyone.

The point I' m trying to make is that Hancock dogs have as much chance of being good ones as any others bred the same way by private breeders, but they are not all going to be wonder dogs that suit everyone just because they have come from this breeder. I grudgingly admire Hancock for the hard work he puts in at his age, with the kennels and with customers. However, I do not believe that with his workload, and at his age, he is able to work any of his stud dogs to assess their worth for breeding. Before buying, also think about the welfare of his adult dogs in a commercial breeding kennel, and remember that money is the bottom line. Ask whether you want to support a commercial set up, when with a bit of looking around and patience, you could buy the same type of lurcher from a private breeder, where chances are, they are bred from to perpetuate good workers and no time or expense will have been spared on the puppies.

 

[Caravan Monster]

I think that everyone is making the same points in different ways here. Collie crosses are a demanding type of lurcher and seem to require a very committed and skilled owner, who has a good idea of their requirements. With regard to breeding and selecting, I especially agree with the advice of the trainer greengoatman knew, particularly about using a collie or lurcher that you know to be a good worker. Remember though, first and second crosses may breed level physically, and there are some good ones, but they do not always inherit the desperate to please and obey parts of the collie' s brain, or the greyhound's laid back nature.

With regard to Hancock, he is a COMMERCIAL breeder and advertises his dogs as 'work, show or pet' ie for anyone who will buy them- it would not be good business sense to vet potential buyers. I think that a good number of first time lurcher owners set out with the best intentions in the world. They start by researching the subject, click on Amazon, and confronted with a wealth of Plummer books, buy some (he wrote the most, so must be the best adviser). After reading 'Merle', they realise that the half cross must be the one to go for. The constant sneaky references to the aforementioned breeder lead them to think that they have hit upon some littleknown and valuable information about who is the best breeder. Off they go to Birmingham and are met with courteous and knowledgable breeders who are also expert in handling their customers. It' s some time later, after the cheque has cleared, that the trouble begins and they realise this type of lurcher is not for everyone.

The point I' m trying to make is that Hancock dogs have as much chance of being good ones as any others bred the same way by private breeders, but they are not all going to be wonder dogs that suit everyone just because they have come from this breeder. I grudgingly admire Hancock for the hard work he puts in at his age, with the kennels and with customers. However, I do not believe that with his workload, and at his age, he is able to work any of his stud dogs to assess their worth for breeding. Before buying, also think about the welfare of his adult dogs in a commercial breeding kennel, and remember that money is the bottom line. Ask whether you want to support a commercial set up, when with a bit of looking around and patience, you could buy the same type of lurcher from a private breeder, where chances are, they are bred from to perpetuate good workers and no time or expense will have been spared on the puppies.