Advice please.rescue lurcher cross.

[Seelsy]

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Hi. My son gave a home to a rescue Lurcher about 4 months ago. He is absolutely adorable and incredibly affectionate with him and women in general. He seems to have taken a shine to me and when I visit he is playful and very gentle. The problem is that he really isn't keen on men apart from my son. My eldest son who has visited a few times and been met with teeth showing and growling. Apparently the man who abused and neglected him was of similar stature to my eldest son so we can all understand the anxiety and fear that must be causing that. My husband has had two visits and once was fine,the other not so much. The dog was curious and although a bit nervous was playing happily with his toys on the floor with my husband for a fair while. On the way out though he nipped my husband on his leg. My husband being a nice guy basically assured my son it was fine but that it must be watched as it could be a problem. He was aware that he may have startled the dog on getting up to leave and doesn't blame the dog at all. It is however a concern and my son is quite worried about this as it appears whenever they go for a walk he is constantly growling and barking at men. Women he is absolutely fine with and so the worst thing I've dealt with his is constant licking and wanting to snuggle.lol. He is around a year and a half old. I will give my son huge credit. He is training him very well. His dad and step mum go to Crufts and have several animals including Lurchers. Instantly he took my son (who is tall but very thin..not big build like the aggressor) and he has no issues with anything. He tells him when he needs to go outside ,even from the first day. He is so attached to him though that he won't eat in the kitchen where his bowl is,he takes mouthfuls and brings it into where my son is and eats. He hates being alone and ends up on my sons bed. My son adores him.

I think I'm just concerned about the anxious nipping and teeth baring where men are concerned. My eldest son and husband walk in say hello to him in a calm voice,then ignore him and see if he comes to them. He usually does but there is always that worry that he may snap. I believe he is a Lurcher crossed with a Collie and I've heard Collies can be quite particular too.

Taking him for walks is an ordeal. He is always kept on the lead because of the concern over biting. He wants to chase everything which I know is natural for this breed. My son lives very close to a huge natural park. He walks him there all the time. He would love to be able to allow him some more freedom but is obviously worried about letting him off leash. Someone suggested he get a muzzle so that it would prevent him accidentally or on purpose nipping someone. He doesn't seem to know if this is a good or bad idea. He worries it will make him worse and doesn't like the idea the dog will feel 'muzzled' but agrees it would make him less worried when he takes him anywhere.

It's such a shame as he honestly is the most adorable,affectionate dog around me,my son and his girlfriend. However ,my husband ,my sons dad and my other son have all been on the receiving end of his not so affectionate side.

Anyway,this brings me to my next thing. My son has been invited to an event. His girlfriend will be away. We have been asked to doggysit. Now,we are both fine about having him and it's only for 3 nights BUT I am concerned about a few things.

-Given his anxiety and likelihood of his separation anxiety from my son ,is this wise?

-Having already nipped my husband,is this likely to happen again ,given that he will be in our home this time rather than his?

-I have already said ,if we were to say yes,we must consider the dogs needs before our own and be certain this won't make him ill. Plus if we have him,my son must be prepared to come back if the dog is truly stressed. How do we best help the dog settle and cope with being away from my son?

Considerations also are that I'm not exactly a well woman with Fibromyalgia and arthritis so any dog walking will be down to my husband. Also that at home he sleeps with them. Here he cannot do that.

I am at home all day. My husband is at work. I'm concerned also how he will react when my husband comes home. How do we manage that? Is it just a case of him coming in slowly and ignoring him and letting him come to him if he wants?

I'm sorry for the rambling and questions but I only want to make sure we are all doing the right thing by the dog. ( I have referred to him as dog so as not to mention his name ,not because he is actually called dog..lol).

Thanks in advance.

 

[JoanneF]

You are doing lots of good work, he is a bit of a challenge. But muzzled isn't necessarily a bad thing if done properly. Primula cheese is a great incentive when smeared in a basket muzzle! Introduce it slowly and make it positive. Then, despite our human negative associations; it at least keeps everyone safe. It isn't a solution but is a safety net.

When your son is away, could you possibly stay at his house to maintain as much stability as possible?

 

[gypsysmum2]

Well done for recognising all that is going on with this dog.

Nipping people when they are leaving is a collie trait. They are "rounding up" the visitors. The best thing for this is to be aware of it and get the dog under control so that he cannot do it. Every time he nips someone as they are leaving it reinforces that the behaviour works. The person that is in his space goes away.

His behaviour is rooted, it would seem, in anxiety. The only way to improve it is to reduce the anxiety. A muzzle, if introduced properly, will help everyone to relax and this will impact upon the dog. He will not see it as a label or punishment. He will, eventually, see it as he sees his collar or harness.

He needs to find out that the people he is afraid of are safe to be around. He can only learn when he is not anxious and this will all take time.

You will notice that just as you think he is improving he takes a step back. He will be pulling up memories from his past all the time. It will take a long time for him to replace his bad memories around some men with good ones. Try not to let scary men push into his space. He must be allowed to go to them in his own time.

Dogs feel trapped on lead. This makes them anxious which makes any issues like aggression worse. Long term he needs to find out that men are not so bad and can be trusted. Of course, before he can go off lead he will need some recall training in a safe place.

Staying at your son's house would be the best solution but if it is not possible then trying to minimise the disruption at your house might help him. If he is really scared of your husband could another household take him? Give him a bolt hole and make sure it is always available to him so that he does not feel trapped.

 

[Seelsy]

Hi. Thank you so much for your responses. It's very helpful. I will show my son the replies. He has said he will most likely get the muzzle and introduce it as part of his lead and walk routine. He makes it fun and has taught him to bring his lead to him and sit for it to be put on. He really is doing wonders already with him. There is a fenced off area on the natural park where other dog owners take their dogs to go off leash. A woman he got talking to suggested he give it a try. He was very nervous but kept calm and let him off lead. He was fine. The woman then suggested she let her dog in also and my son explained it may not be wise as he didn't know how his dog would react. She introduced the other dog slowly with that one still on lead. Apparently they were playful and wagging tails so the woman insisted it would be fine. It turned out to be just that.

Unfortunately I can't stay at my sons. I wish I could but my medical needs prevent me from doing so. Our house is open plan so he will have plenty of space but no real bolt hole as such. I'm trying to figure out how to make an area he would feel safe.

Honestly I don't think he hates my husband. I think the Collie rounding up thing is probably nearer to the mark. It makes sense given that he was happily playing on the floor all the time he was there and fussed over my husband the minute he came in ( whereas with my eldest son he'd immediately growled and got anxsty) . It was just when he was on his way out. There was no growling,no real force behind it, and no obvious aggressive behaviour other than the nip. My husband is very much like my son in stature and personality so I'm wondering if that's why he took to him quicker than other men . My husband laughs about it and sent my son a text saying he'd be back for his leg another day. Lol.

My son says he will bring all his toys,all his bedding,his food and everything to ensure the transition is as easy as possible. He is still uncertain if he will attend the event as he really doesn't want to upset the dog but the thing is there may be another time when he has to go away and we would be back to this quandary again anyway.

Again thank you for the replies. It's very much appreciated.

 

[gypsysmum2]

Well done to your son for all the work he is doing. He might like to read "Understanding the Rescue Dog" by Carol Price. She is also an expert on collie behaviour and has written other books on that breed.

A low traffic area is the best place to settle him in. Never disturb him while he is there. Also remember the old adage to "let sleeping dogs lie".

You might like to fit a house line ( a long lead) on him so that you can stand on it (with only one foot) when you need to gain control quickly without scaring him by grabbing or shouting.

Some dogs will take to changing houses and some will find it difficult. You might like to do a trial run for a couple of hours?

Make sure your eldest son is not staring at the dog as this is seen as aggressive to the dog and it will make him more anxious. He should allow all the approaches to come from the dog and, perhaps, reward good brave behaviour with treats.

 

[Seelsy]

Well,he's at our house and so far no huge issues. He is my shadow and seems ok apart from he seems very sad and quite lethargic. He hasn't cried too much but it breaks my heart to see him look so down. My son very nearly didn't go and is already missing his best friend. It seems the dog is missing his mate too. He has eaten and played in the garden a little but apart from that he has been laid on the sofa. Sometimes alone,sometimes next to me. We had one little growl when my husband came home but nothing else. My husband has been the one to feed him and basically left him be apart from the occasional word of encouragement to reassure him. Whilst he isn't at all aggressive to him he is ,you can tell,very nervous of him. He won't go in the kitchen if he's there but is quite happy to be in the same room as him otherwise. We are expecting a night of crying as we can't allow him upstairs as my son does.

Apart from the worry over his slightly depressed state I'd say it's going better than I expected. We can always get my son home if needs be. Thank you for the advice. The fact he's eaten is a good thing.

 

[JoanneF]

He will be out of sorts, poor boy; but he is safe and cared for even if he doesn't know it! Please keep us updated. I would suggest - IF Gypsysmum (who is more knowledgeable than me in this) agrees - that your husband doesnt even offer words of encouragement yet. Just totally ignore the dog, no eye contact, nothing. If there is any progress, such as the dog looking at your husband in a non-fearful way (watch the accompanying body language) your husband could drop - not toss, just drop - a piece of chicken or sausage as he walks out the room. If the dog takes it he might progress to dropping it by the door then returning to his chair in the room. But see what Gypsysmim says first please.

 

[Seelsy]

Thank you. Yes he's doing that anyway now. It must be awful for my husband. He is a real softy and he loves animals. I think it's difficult for him but he is trying his best to do as you've all advised.

Last night was a trial. He cried all night bless him. We tried him left in the living room but we have an open stairs. We had a stair gate put in but he negotiated his way over it and kept coming upstairs. We then eventually tried him in the kitchen in his secure safe spot with his own bed and toys etc. He cried and howled. I went downstairs at 1am as he really sounded so sad. I let him out in the garden and he did a wee. 2am he was still crying and I again went down to check he was ok. I was aware this was possibly reinforcing the idea that if he cried I'd come but I just needed to know he didn't need to go outside again. He decided this was time to play with his squeaky toy and this did make me laugh. I let him burn off some energy for a little while then settled him down and went to bed about 3am. The rest of the night was awful. He cried and cried all night. I could have cried for him. I finally fell asleep around 5am from sheer exhaustion and was awake before my husbands alarm at 6.30am from yet more howling. My husband got up and basically went about his business as usual. He let him out but didn't make a fuss. He then sneaked up to come get me by nudging the bedroom door and crying. He has eaten his food again and apart from him seeming very tired (as he would the little monkey) he is fine. He isn't crying during the day when I'm with him. I've been pottering around the house and he has just stayed downstairs,I've been and done a tiny bit of gardening ,encouraging him to join me out there and he stayed inside. He seems depressed. I've spoken to my son and he misses him a lot too. We've debated wether he should come home. We agreed to give it tonight and see what happens. As you say,he is loved very much and very well cared for but he doesn't know that. All he knows is his daddy has left him here and may or may not come home. It's breaking my heart. He will go on his walk later (with caution due to his temperamental nature) and hope tonight is easier. If not we may have to get my son home. His sad eyes are killing me.

 

[JoanneF]

Can he sleep in your room? It would make him less distressed, you would get some sleep and your son could continue his holiday?

 

[Seelsy]

Unfortunately that's not possible. I have allergies that seem to be OK downstairs because the house is open plan and the door is usually open to the garden and we have wood floors. Upstairs it's contained and carpeted. My husband slept downstairs with him last night. They started off on seperate sofas and ended up sharing one. He's coming round to my husband a lot. Ignoring him definitely worked. He fed him last night and J went to him whilst he was serving it up and was not phased at all,then licked my husbands hand after as bough he was saying thank you. Since then he's been on a walk with him and slept on same sofa with him. He was also playing in the garden with him when I got up. The advice here has been great and it seems to be effective and I've one happy husband. Lol. We are still aware he could revert back occasionally but all seems much better. My son is now doing another night away and we will evaluate the situation again tomorrow and see if he can stay until Sunday,when he will definitely be home. My husbands home all weekend so I'm now looking forward to it,rather than worried. When my husband left for work early this morning J actually cried and has been looking for him. We have spent the morning mostly in the garden and he seems very much happier and playful.

 

[gypsysmum2]

All seems to be going well. The only worrying thing is his need for human contact. This is fine for now but, for his long term happiness, will need to be addressed somewhere down the line. If you are always available to have him if your son goes out or away then it may not cause too much distress to him. If, however, your son needs to leave him on his own sometimes it could cause issues in the future. Nothing to be done for now as it is miles too early to be doing anything other than settling him to his new home and getting a nice routine going.

It might pay dividends for the dog's future to invest in a consultation with a fully qualified Pet Behaviour Therapist from either COAPE or APBC. (Would make a good birthday/Christmas present ). They would lay out a plan for your son's dog to see him over his settling in period, his going out into the world, and being left alone for short periods. Once a full assessment has been done they can support your son through any difficulty that arises.

 

[Erssiemajor@yahoo.co.uk]

I can reassure you, I had a greyhound who bit men out of fear and anxiety. Especially if cornered. We rehomed her knowing this, gave her space and instructed all visitors not to approach or corner her. After arriving here, she never bit a person again and her confidence grew. She was always wary of new people but eventually approached them on her own terms. She passed away a few weeks back, after being here for 9 years. I find dogs that have been poorly socialised and neglected can nip out of fear and uncertainty and standing up to leave makes them startled. With a basket cage muzzle though, you can practice situations. Get male friends to get up, leave, come back in repeatedly until he's used to it and feed cheesy treats to reward good behaviour through the muzzle. It took about 2 mths for my girl to be less anxious and become the best behaved pooch we ever had. Your dog will come round in time and learn positive things. We had a bit of separation anxiety with hounds wanting to be on the bed so we had to be tough and ignore the crying. Giving in and comforting just makes them do it more. Howling is trying to call family members to him. But that can settle in familiar surroundings but then start up again on holiday.Having more than one dog can help if paired with a confident dog. My girl was paired with a very outgoing boy and he showed her best how to be ok with men. She became a daddy's girl though.

 

[JoanneF]

《we had to be tough and ignore the crying. Giving in and comforting just makes them do it more.》

Or it can confirm to the dog that being left is a terrible thing and can make it a learned behaviour. You wouldn't leave a lonely and distressed child to cry alone. Comforting the dog can strengthen your bond and reassure the dog. Leaving a dog for periods and building its confidence alone (in order to prevent separation anxiety) should be done when the dog is calm.

 

[Erssiemajor@yahoo.co.uk]

I've found the opposite with dogs, they're not like kids, they learn by behaviour and our direct response and we have no language other than behaviour to rationalise what is happening. If they cry and you immediately go and comfort, they learn that you will go and comfort them if they cry in future and do it more. Often they're not thinking being left is a terrible thing, they're thinking if you go they can call you back in an instant and you will come every time and that makes them very unhappy if you do have to leave them for an hour or so to go the shop/doctor etc. I never leave my dogs for more than an hour or so and I don't work outside my home. Having said that, if I get a new dog I always build up the separation in very small stages starting from a few minutes. We stay outside a room, wait until a dog is quiet and settled, then rush in and fuss/reward. If noisy, I don't do anything. Of course they know you are in the house, but can be taught if they're quiet you are going to come back. Sometimes if they whine at night and you ignore it, it does stop and settle. If it has gone on a long time and the dog is up at the door or bottom of stairs barking, and you have neighbours (who might report noise violation) I sometimes go in, but I don't comfort, I just lead the Dog back to his bed quietly without a word let him settle, then go to the toilet, do a few things and go back to bed. But tolerating small sessions of separation has to be done from the moment they arrive. Going to the loo and shutting the door for a few mins is a good start then the gap can be widened. Obviously it's best if you take time off while a dog settles in. If people want to sleep with their dog every night, and never be separated for a minute in the day that is fine but most people want to do things where they can't take their dog but have conditioned their dog to think if he cries they will immediately appear. And that is not good and I am involved in rescuing greyhounds and a fair amount are bounced back for separation anxiety that they learned in the first few weeks at home that they didn't have in kennels or foster home because their human spent every minute day and night with their new dog, but then wanted to go back to their normal routine a few weeks later and the dogs make a lot of noise and can't be left for a minute. 3 dogs recently were returned for the same problem. One was because of a noise order as the lady had to be out 2 hrs every afternoon and she got an eviction notice. Another would not settle or even eat if their human left her with relatives, and another girl got her human out of bed 4 times every night but didn't want anything and went to sleep as soon as he sat in a room with her. People have to realise that any dog, rescued or not, might get SA if their human doesn't build up short sessions and if they rush to a dog and comfort every time they cry, it can positively reinforce that behaviour. Then it makes the Dog more miserable if you did have to pop out, or stays with friends/relatives and then does their usual crying but you're not there, and can't go and comfort or reassure.

 

[JoanneF]

I don't disagree on leaving for a few minutes then building up to a reasonable length of time in order to prevent SA. I just think the dog learns better when he or she is calm. Acute distress prevents learning. I also think there is a difference between crying through distress, and crying for attention. I agree again that attention seeking behaviour can develop into demands for attention and that we therefore reward desired (independent) behaviour. So all the more important to recognise distress cries from attention seeking cries.

 

[gypsysmum2]

As with all behaviour problems, the cause has to be identified first.

 

[Seelsy]

Thank you for the replies. J went home with his daddy at the weekend and it was a lovely emotional reunion and they clearly love each other very much. I can understand why my son loves J so much. He is the most gentle and affectionate dog I've ever known and if I had one I'd want one exactly like him. At the end of his visit he was quite happily playing with both of us,wandering in and out the house at his own pleasure and jumping up to sit in between us on the sofa in the evening to snuggle. He had really become part of the family and frankly I miss him a lot. If I didn't have issues with illness and allergies I'd seriously think about rehoming one. We both fell in love with him and it's strange not having him around. He never had an accident,never damaged anything and he managed to make us adore him. He is happily back in his home and settled in fine. He went crazy when he realised my son was here to collect him. He went mad for a while then just laid his head on my sons knee and left it there as though he was cuddling him. So cute.

As he was leaving he came and licked us and fussed then ran to the door with my son and sat happily in the back of the car to go.

Your help has been great and much appreciated. My son acknowledges the separation anxiety is an issue but he never leaves him usually for longer than three hours ever. Apparently that seems fine and no issues have arisen from it. Sleep at home is ,as my son admits,easier because he likes the dog with him. He realises this makes it more difficult to have someone else take care of him. We adapted and for the few days he was here we did what we felt best to avoid distressing him too much. Had he been our dog he'd have been immediately sleeping downstairs and we would have had to ignore the crying until he got used to being downstairs. However when it's not your dog and he's howling the place down all night ( and your husband has to work) you need to go with whatever makes him feel less stressed.

I think,all things considered ,we coped ok and J was as happy and as loved as he could be. I'm hopefully going to visit them next week so will get to see my son and J again. Miss them both.

Oh.. And the training for a birthday or Christmas present is a great idea. Thank you for that. X

 

[JoanneF]

I am so glad it all went well. Don't forget to visit us from time to time!

 

[Seelsy]

Absolutely

 

[gypsysmum2]

If he is happy to be left for three hours then he does not have separation anxiety. Dogs with this condition react after being left for just a very short while. It is the act of separation that upsets them not the length of time they are left. Dogs that are destructive when left for long periods have other issues like boredom or a reaction to strange noises etc.

It sounds as if your son's dog copes fine with being left. It may not always be the case as it can develop later in a relationship.