Advice Please

[mikadene]

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hello Folks,

I want to approach a rather delicate topic that may not get many replies. Has anyone got any knowledge which lines are prone to throw Monorchids or Chripochids. I know it comes down the sire's line, but it is handy to know . When I bought my Puppy the breeder checked and told me it was rife in this breed, It never was when I was in it over 35 yrs ago. It must be a modern problem that has just sprung up. Well he had one down and one I have to tease dailey until it fully desended about 13 weeks old if my memory serves me right. Private emails would be nice so as not to stir the Hornets nest etc. I want to consider a particular line but I need to know if there is any known problems. I like to plan my litters a year or two in advance and study all that I can about certain dogs.

Many thanks to those that feel they can help. If you feel you can't no matter it is a really diffecult topic to discuss and I fully understand.

Regards

Mike

 

[~elizabeth~]

I know it comes down the sire's line, but it is handy to know . 

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"Although the genetics of cryptorchidism in dogs is incompletely characterized, there is enough data to aid in genetic counseling. Inheritance of isolated cryptorchidism as a sex-limited recessive trait is consistent with available data. Using this model, the first recommendation is that affected dogs be removed from the breeding population. The second recommendation is that both the father and mother of affected dogs should be considered to be carriers.Some full siblings of the affected dog will also be carriers. In other species in which cryptorchidism occurs as a recessive trait, a reduction in the frequency of affected animals was obtained in a few generations by removing carrier parents and affected males from the breeding population. This is probably the minimum program that should be pursued in dogs.

Although medical regimens have been suggested to induce testicular descent in cryptorchid dogs, there are no published reports to confirm that these are more successful than no treatment at all. If the testes descend several months after birth, this is delayed descent which has been documented in lines of dogs that have a high incidence of cryptorchidism [20]. Thus dogs with late descent may be a variant of the cryptorchid phenotype, and could still transmit genes for this defect to their offspring."

IVIS veterinary information service

 

[~elizabeth~]

To clarify, there seems to be different opinions on whether cryptorchidism in dog IS sex-linked characteristic. Even if it is, sex-linked diseases are inherited through one of the sex chromosomes, the X chromosome (diseases are not inherited through the Y chromosome). Females have two X chromosomes, while males have one X and one Y; so it can still be inherited from both male and female lines, and cannot be 'brought in' by one parent alone, as your own line would also need to be a carrier.

 

[mikadene]

To clarify, there seems to be different opinions on whether cryptorchidism in dog IS sex-linked characteristic. Even if it is, sex-linked diseases are inherited through one of the sex chromosomes, the X chromosome (diseases are not inherited through the Y chromosome). Females have two X chromosomes, while males have one X and one Y; so it can still be inherited from both male and female lines, and cannot be 'brought in' by one parent alone, as your own line would also need to be a carrier.

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Many thanks for the advice. If there's a problem I will find it. One tries to obtain the very best but no one seems to want to admit they have a problem.

My vet told me it mainly came down the male line and from my own experience I had a couple of dogs that were monochids. I had them fixed and placed in a family home. It came to pass both the Sire and his son was throwing them right left and centre. Yet people still used them. That was a costly experience for me.

Mike

 

[dawn]

At 13 weeks I am sure they will be up and down like yo-yos.

Why do people worry about this problem at such an early age, give them a chance to drop.

I bet u were a monorchid at 13weeks

 

[Avalonia]

At 13 weeks I am sure they will be up and down like yo-yos. 
Why do people worry about this problem at such an early age, give them a chance to drop.

I bet u were a monorchid at 13weeks

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At the risk of incurring the wrath of those who pretend that monorchidism or cryptorchidism is not a problem in some whippet lines, I am astonished that anyone would think that undescended testicle or testicltes at 13 weeks is anything approaching normal. It is NOT.

In my view and in our experience, testes should be obvious and evident -- as we experience in our dogs -- as early as 4 weeks. And at 8 weeks they should be clearly and fully descended. Our vet certifies, in writing, this fact with every single whippet dog we breed and we are proud that in over 30 litters in more than 20 years we have had exactly one undescended testicle, and that was a short corded testicle held just above the canal where it needed to descend.

It is high time that people quit pretending that some lines do not have huge problems with undescended testicles while encouraging people to buy these dogs and massage the males to assist them descend their testicles. It is also time for "breeders" to quit quietly placing monorchid males, and then keeping their sisters and breeding from them later on.

Hello? It takes two to tango and the undescended testicle, or the cryptorchid does not occur simply down the male line. We firmly believe that it comes down through lines that are riddled with problems and dogs and bitches carry the problem and pass it on. Yet people continue to place the males and pretend they did not exist, while continuing to breed on with their sisters. There is a problem here that people are refusing to recognize. Simply put, lines with these problems should not be continued with. Everything in the line should be spayed and neutered. Full stop.

Lanny Morry

 

[Seraphina]

At 13 weeks I am sure they will be up and down like yo-yos. 
Why do people worry about this problem at such an early age, give them a chance to drop.

I bet u were a monorchid at 13weeks

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At the risk of incurring the wrath of those who pretend that monorchidism or cryptorchidism is not a problem in some whippet lines, I am astonished that anyone would think that undescended testicle or testicltes at 13 weeks is anything approaching normal. It is NOT.

In my view and in our experience, testes should be obvious and evident -- as we experience in our dogs -- as early as 4 weeks. And at 8 weeks they should be clearly and fully descended. Our vet certifies, in writing, this fact with every single whippet dog we breed and we are proud that in over 30 litters in more than 20 years we have had exactly one undescended testicle, and that was a short corded testicle held just above the canal where it needed to descend.

It is high time that people quit pretending that some lines do not have huge problems with undescended testicles while encouraging people to buy these dogs and massage the males to assist them descend their testicles. It is also time for "breeders" to quit quietly placing monorchid males, and then keeping their sisters and breeding from them later on.

Hello? It takes two to tango and the undescended testicle, or the cryptorchid does not occur simply down the male line. We firmly believe that it comes down through lines that are riddled with problems and dogs and bitches carry the problem and pass it on. Yet people continue to place the males and pretend they did not exist, while continuing to breed on with their sisters. There is a problem here that people are refusing to recognize. Simply put, lines with these problems should not be continued with. Everything in the line should be spayed and neutered. Full stop.

Lanny Morry

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Agree, almost totally. The only reservation I have is about excluding from breeding any dog related to cryptorchid. Unfortunately, that would not leave much to breed from, the way things are there are not many lines that do not have problems, and not many people admit to having cryptorchids in their litters.

But what about those pups who did have testicles and then "loose" them? I had a litter few years ago, 3 boys and 5 testicles clearly visible at birth; the 6th one was there within day or two. I was very smug, and watched over them making sure they are still there. They were, or so I thought, firmly settled each in their respective scrotum, right until the pups went to their new homes at about 10 weeks. Year later I got an update about one of the boys, and the man just mentioned "by the way, when we had him desexed there was a bit of problem as both of his testicles were right up in his abdomen". (w00t) I thought that the vet was having them on, but they assured me that they noticed them missing at about 6 months and waited until he was 1 year old, hoping they will come down.

 

[Seraphina]

At 13 weeks I am sure they will be up and down like yo-yos. 
Why do people worry about this problem at such an early age, give them a chance to drop.

I bet u were a monorchid at 13weeks

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Well, they should not be going going up and down.

And lets get the terms right

Monorchid = has only one testicle, the other one is not there, it does not exist

Cryptorchid = hidden testicle or both

Monorchidism is extremely rare

 

[Roedeane]

At 13 weeks I am sure they will be up and down like yo-yos. 
Why do people worry about this problem at such an early age, give them a chance to drop.

I bet u were a monorchid at 13weeks

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​

At the risk of incurring the wrath of those who pretend that monorchidism or cryptorchidism is not a problem in some whippet lines, I am astonished that anyone would think that undescended testicle or testicltes at 13 weeks is anything approaching normal. It is NOT.

In my view and in our experience, testes should be obvious and evident -- as we experience in our dogs -- as early as 4 weeks. And at 8 weeks they should be clearly and fully descended. Our vet certifies, in writing, this fact with every single whippet dog we breed and we are proud that in over 30 litters in more than 20 years we have had exactly one undescended testicle, and that was a short corded testicle held just above the canal where it needed to descend.

It is high time that people quit pretending that some lines do not have huge problems with undescended testicles while encouraging people to buy these dogs and massage the males to assist them descend their testicles. It is also time for "breeders" to quit quietly placing monorchid males, and then keeping their sisters and breeding from them later on.

Hello? It takes two to tango and the undescended testicle, or the cryptorchid does not occur simply down the male line. We firmly believe that it comes down through lines that are riddled with problems and dogs and bitches carry the problem and pass it on. Yet people continue to place the males and pretend they did not exist, while continuing to breed on with their sisters. There is a problem here that people are refusing to recognize. Simply put, lines with these problems should not be continued with. Everything in the line should be spayed and neutered. Full stop.

Lanny Morry

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Toatally agree with you on this point Lanny :thumbsup:

 

[~JO~]

Agree, almost totally.  The only reservation I have is about excluding from breeding any dog related to cryptorchid.  Unfortunately, that would not leave much to breed from, the way things are there are not many lines that do not have problems, and not many people admit to having cryptorchids in their litters.  But what about those pups who did have testicles and then "loose" them?  I had a litter few years ago, 3 boys and 5 testicles clearly visible at birth; the 6th one was there within day or two.  I was very smug, and watched over them making sure they are still there.  They were, or so I thought, firmly settled each in their respective scrotum, right until the pups went to their new homes at about 10 weeks.  Year later I got an update about one of the boys, and the man just mentioned "by the way, when we had him desexed there was a bit of problem as both of his testicles were right up in his abdomen".  (w00t)   I thought that the vet was having them on, but they assured me that they noticed them missing at about 6 months and waited until he was 1 year old, hoping they will come down. 

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I am sure there has been some thought about early vaccinations causing testicles to dispapear back up - another reason why some people like to wait til the pup is a bit older before they have their jabs

 

[Seraphina]

(w00t)   I thought that the vet was having them on, but they assured me that they noticed them missing at about 6 months and waited until he was 1 year old, hoping they will come down. 

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I am sure there has been some thought about early vaccinations causing testicles to dispapear back up - another reason why some people like to wait til the pup is a bit older before they have their jabs

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I cannot see a correlation, if there was a connection this would be happening equally across all breeds. That is certainly not the case, I never came across a dog with missing or disapearing testicle/s in any of my Danes, or any litter bred by friends, which I saw being born and closely observed as they were growing up. These included cavaliers, poodles and Groenendaels. The Borzois were bit different, their testicles came down within the first couple of weeks, and from all the Borzoi litters I knew only one pup had a problem in this department.

Vaccinating at 6, 12 and then at 16 weeks was the recommended routine that we all followed. Also I know for sure that this Whippet boy had his testicles for the 4 weeks he was with me after his vaccination. I know his 2 brothers did not have problems, one went to friend, and the other came back for a months, while his owners were overseas.

 

[~JO~]

(w00t)   I thought that the vet was having them on, but they assured me that they noticed them missing at about 6 months and waited until he was 1 year old, hoping they will come down. 

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I am sure there has been some thought about early vaccinations causing testicles to dispapear back up - another reason why some people like to wait til the pup is a bit older before they have their jabs

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I cannot see a correlation, if there was a connection this would be happening equally across all breeds. That is certainly not the case, I never came across a dog with missing or disapearing testicle/s in any of my Danes, or any litter bred by friends, which I saw being born and closely observed as they were growing up. These included cavaliers, poodles and Groenendaels. The Borzois were bit different, their testicles came down within the first couple of weeks, and from all the Borzoi litters I knew only one pup had a problem in this department.

Vaccinating at 6, 12 and then at 16 weeks was the recommended routine that we all followed. Also I know for sure that this Whippet boy had his testicles for the 4 weeks he was with me after his vaccination. I know his 2 brothers did not have problems, one went to friend, and the other came back for a months, while his owners were overseas.

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Hmm well it appears there is no correlation - I just mentioned as although I have had no experience of this correlation I have had a couple of people who have been in the breed a very long time say this - perhaps an old wives tale - who knows!

On another note, I was shocked to read you vaccinateat 6 weeks and then a further 2 - this seems rather excessive, I have never heard of 3 vaccinations.

 

[Avalonia]

On another note, I was shocked to read you vaccinateat 6 weeks and then a further 2 - this seems rather excessive, I have never heard of 3 vaccinations.

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I have never heard any correlation between vaccinations and testes either and am sure it is just another excuse to coat over a problem and explain it away.

In terms of vaccinations, here in Canada we have pups vaccinated three times -- first at 8 weeks with a shot that covers canine distemper-adenovirus, type 2 parainfluenza and parvovirus. We repeat this same shot at 12 and 16 weeks. Our practice now is to give one booster at a year of age -- same shot -- and that is it for life. There is now ample evidence that a dog so vaccinated is then amply vaccinated against those things for life, and annual vaccines are neither warranted nor necessarily good for the dog. In America they are supposed to be teaching this practice now in their vet schools, but sadly we know that graduating vet students anxious to keep cash flow going are far more likely to keep advising clients of the need for an annual booster, whether it is actually needed (or good for the dog) or not.

We also ensure our dogs are vaccinated against rabies. Not that I have ever heard of a dog in this region having rabies since I was a child, but unfortunately we live in a rural area, run our dogs sometimes in our large pasture which is accessible by things like raccoons and skunks which have been found to have rabies occasionally (it originated in racoons in the US who came into Canada across the ice of the St. Lawrence river in winter) though there is an active program to drop food containing rabies vaccine into areas where these animals live each spring. Forwarned if forearmed, so we make sure our dogs are protected against what could otherwise be a hideous disease to contract.

Lanny

 

[petrezselyem]

Interesting topic! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[Seraphina]

Hmm well it appears there is no correlation - I just mentioned as although I have had no experience of this correlation I have had a couple of people who have been in the breed a very long time say this - perhaps an old wives tale - who knows!
On another note, I was shocked to read you vaccinateat 6 weeks and  then a further 2 - this seems rather excessive, I have never heard of 3 vaccinations.

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Puppies are born with immunity acquired from their mother, but that gradually wears off until there is almost none by 12 weeks of age, although there are some variations from one individual to another. By 6 weeks the immunity is substantially reduced and therefore we always vaccinate with a temporally vaccine at 6 weeks, however if the pups' natural immunity was still quite strong at that stage it may interfere with the vaccine, and therefore a booster is given at 12 weeks, at 16 weeks parvo booster is given, then another booster for everything at 12 months. After that only kennel cough. Although, I may have my dogs' titre tested after couple of years, and again when they get old and would be more susceptible to these horrible dog diseases.

Unfortunately, people blame on vaccinations everything they can think off. I remember when there was a time it was responsible for wanky ears in GSD pups. Vaccination is a dead virus, which will trigger response from the immune system, so if the individual comes in contact with the disease in future his immune system is ready and kills it before the virus can replicate.

 

[chelynnah]

On another note, I was shocked to read you vaccinateat 6 weeks and  then a further 2 - this seems rather excessive, I have never heard of 3 vaccinations.

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Hi Jo - vaccination protocols are different in different countries. In some countries they are spread out over a longer series of weeks rather than just the 2 that we have. It doesn't mean they're getting more vaccine than we do - just that they spread it out differently.

Then add rabies to the mix on top of it which we are very lucky that we don't need to get over here.

Overall I think we're very lucky - we've got the new protocols with intervet with most vaccines only needing boosted every 3 years, while the main US company still insists on annually, we don't need heartworm, we don't need rabies! It was such a change having my first dog over here and all the things we DIDN'T need!

Wendy

 

[petrezselyem]

On another note, I was shocked to read you vaccinateat 6 weeks and  then a further 2 - this seems rather excessive, I have never heard of 3 vaccinations.

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Hi Jo - vaccination protocols are different in different countries. In some countries they are spread out over a longer series of weeks rather than just the 2 that we have. It doesn't mean they're getting more vaccine than we do - just that they spread it out differently.

Then add rabies to the mix on top of it which we are very lucky that we don't need to get over here.

Overall I think we're very lucky - we've got the new protocols with intervet with most vaccines only needing boosted every 3 years, while the main US company still insists on annually, we don't need heartworm, we don't need rabies! It was such a change having my first dog over here and all the things we DIDN'T need!

Wendy

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Our vaccinations protocol (Hungary and other Middle-East European countries):

First basic vaccination: 6 weeks

Than 4 more, against Parvovirosis, Coronavirus enteritis, Hepatitis, Leptospirosis, Distemper, Kennel cough. 3 vaccinations in 2 weeks times, and the last one 1 month later. Than we have to repeat yearly with 1 vaccination.

Against rabies we have 2 basic vaccinations: first at 3 months of age, than repeat in 6 month time, and than yearly.

All this with the needed anthelminthic treatments and tick treatment of course. )

 

[Juley]

On another note, I was shocked to read you vaccinateat 6 weeks and  then a further 2 - this seems rather excessive, I have never heard of 3 vaccinations.

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Hi Jo - vaccination protocols are different in different countries. In some countries they are spread out over a longer series of weeks rather than just the 2 that we have. It doesn't mean they're getting more vaccine than we do - just that they spread it out differently.

Then add rabies to the mix on top of it which we are very lucky that we don't need to get over here.

Overall I think we're very lucky - we've got the new protocols with intervet with most vaccines only needing boosted every 3 years, while the main US company still insists on annually, we don't need heartworm, we don't need rabies! It was such a change having my first dog over here and all the things we DIDN'T need!

Wendy

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Wendy, did I read that right that your Vet only boosts every three years. mine still do every year though I do ask each time. If that is the case I would be interested to know which product they use.

 

[chelynnah]

Hi Juley

Lepto still has to be done every year as it's efficacy in some dogs doesn't even last a full year, so we have to go in every year for boosters, but the majority of them (if your vet uses the Intervet/Novobiac brand) now only need to be done 3 yearly.

So this year everyone had the 'small jab'. Next year I think Chelsea and Savannah go in for the 'big jab' and Teya still has the small one, then the following year Teya gets the full one.

So they need one at 8 or 10 weeks, the second at 10 or 12 weeks, then again at a year the full whack, then after that they can get the partial one for the following 2 years, then the full dose again on the 3rd year.

Hope that made sense. I may still have the study downloaded, but if you go to the Intervet or Novobiac site it should have it all there and you can print it off and take it to your vet.

Wendy

 

[jayp]

8) well an interesting discussion it seems strange to rely on any study undertaken by the very companies making huge profits from these products. wouldyou rely on a study by tobacco companies to report the adverse effects of cigarettes? i have studied various articles on vaccine protocol reported by canine health concern which give arather different view unrelated to profit. it is only after independant studies have taken place that the very companies insisting we continue to inject our animals with live virus year after year are now admittingthis is unnessesary and that every three years is sufficient. if anyone is interested in a different view of vaccination and beleive me it is eye opening then read the book Shock to the system by Catherine O;Driscoll and make up youre own mind :b

Hi Juley
Lepto still has to be done every year as it's efficacy in some dogs doesn't even last a full year, so we have to go in every year for boosters, but the majority of them (if your vet uses the Intervet/Novobiac brand) now only need to be done 3 yearly.

So this year everyone had the 'small jab'. Next year I think Chelsea and Savannah go in for the 'big jab' and Teya still has the small one, then the following year Teya gets the full one.

So they need one at 8 or 10 weeks, the second at 10 or 12 weeks, then again at a year the full whack, then after that they can get the partial one for the following 2 years, then the full dose again on the 3rd year.

Hope that made sense.  I may still have the study downloaded, but if you go to the Intervet or Novobiac site it should have it all there and you can print it off and take it to your vet.

Wendy

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