Aggressive 4 Year Old Beagle Biting Us Hard

[hanneroon]

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yeah i see that, its a bad situation, i really hope he has found that help and they are all feeling a bit happier;

I have remembered a time when my dog nipped, not me but my overbearing flatmate, i was just outside chopping wood and heard a squeak and a no! And went in to find my dog trembling and my flatmate saying 'hannah your dog just bit me' i asked her what she had been doing and she had been leaning over him on the sofa squishing him with her massive chest, scrabbling his neck and making a growling noise, the poor bugger had nipped her, not enough to mark, and fair enough i figured, crikey i was cross with her. I think i threatened to bite her if she did it again Don't know if that was the right or wrong thing to do, but it was my instant reaction.

Anyway i digress. The best advice on here was to consult someone who knows what they are doing , and who can actually see the little chap in action. Its very hard to advise someone on something like this, without saying what they should have or shouldn't have done, as you say nothing useful can be proposed without seeing them all together, and knowing what might work. I'm not thinking i do btw, i've just got sucked into this thread because i'm nosey!

 

[Cofs]

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nothing useful can be proposed without seeing them all together, and knowing what might work. I'm not thinking i do btw, i've just got sucked into this thread because i'm nosey!

I was googling for an out of season down jacket when this came up, but, my greatest concern was seeing the prolific anthropmorphism 'threat' to this dog & families futor existance together by the appaling, very dangerous, misuse & complete lack/misundertanding of OC terminology & its meaning which has/had a probability affecting the owners behaviour & thought procesess towards the dog & the problem as a whole.

Theres to many on this post (probably others, I aint looked) which potentialy will, by their nature as scientific terms, make this dog & families existance much worse if acted upon, who was the first person to warn about the misunderstanding & potential misuse of his scientific terms? well B F Skinner himself, as long ago as 1938 he emphasised great caution about misuse of scientific terms being translated in the same way the same words are used in normal language. In OC (operant conditioning) the terms 'positive' & 'negative' have nothing whatsoever to do with those words normal meaning, they are completly unrelated & as this is a dog 'behaviour' topic those words used here belong only to the scientific experimental procedures suggested by some people.

Ah well hanneroon, nice speaking to you, must go & check out these end of season downs ready for next winters wet & windy blasts - just one final comment on this posters dog, the behaviour of biting is a 'positive reinforced' behavioural consequence to the dog, the OC solution is that must be replaced by a 'negative reinforced' consequence to the dog so the biting behaviour becomes 'extinct' as the result of abscence of the current positive reinforcing consequence.

The method, sorry, no ideas on that one.

..

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[Cofs]

Definitions by Skinner, contemporary examples by me. Note - the concepts of negative & positive reinforcement are specificaly defintions of the learning consequences of any animals behaviour, in other words the words are 'behaviours', the same as walking, eating, drinking etc are all behaviours, they are not a third party behaviour.

Positive reinforcement.

A positive rein­forcer strengthens any behavior that produces it:

e.g. Little Johnny age 10 accepts the second free drug handout the nice dealer has given him.

.

Negative Reinforcement

A neg­ative reinforcer strengthens any behavior that reduces or terminates it:

e.g. Johnny age 15 buys his first loaded gun, it removes the discomfort Johnny was feeling because he was threatened because he could not pay the drug dealer the money he owns.

.

 

[Cofs]

check out these end of season downs ready for next winters wet & windy blasts

Oh yea, I overlooked myself, wearing any warm coat in winter is negative reinforced behaviour.

 

[hanneroon]

i think this is because the terms 'positive training method' and 'negative training method' are already hotly debated terms, in doggy training. Things like hitting or pinning a dog, or a choke chain are seen as negative, and things like OC or purely reward based (e.g dog treats) are seen as positive. That is, the human is doing a good or bad thing, to the dog. This is regardless of the fact that OC uses positive and negative reinforcers. And regardless of result to the dog.

People have brought their own ideas on this to this debate, not everyone is on the same wavelength. I feel sorry for the owner if he is following this second bit, as he will be feeling bad and confused. I hope the owner is off learning about dog behaviour, rather than listening to us bickering!

 

[Yorkshire lass]

What I know about dog aggression could be written on the back of a very small postage stamp, but could there possibly be a medical reason for his behaviour? I know of two cats (one was mine) who were always a bit aggressive but became more so, and were diagnosed with kidney problems. If you Google 'dog aggression medical causes' there are a number of possible medical conditions which can contribute to aggressive behaviour.

 

[Cofs]

i think this is because the terms 'positive training method' and 'negative training method' are already hotly debated terms, in doggy training.

There is NO debate, misunderstanding or confusion of any kind with operant conditioning, it's well understood. Maybe this is not so well known, the most common misuse of OC is brainwashing.

Things like hitting or pinning a dog, or a choke chain are seen as negative, and things like OC or purely reward based (e.g dog treats) are seen as positive.

Non of anything you wrote above has any relevance to OC, OC defines how an organism learns, theorganism itself is the only judge of what is reinforceing & what is not, an observer cannot judge a behaviour has been reinfoced or not untill it starts to recurr, if it recurrs the behaviour has been reinforced, if not then it has not been reinforced.

The term 'reward' is not anything to do with OC, whoevers spreading that around not only has no idea about OC, they may well be manipulating the listeners behaviour, Skinner orginal 1938, The Behaviour of Organisms, in all the 444 pages I have seen not one single instance of that word, it is unrelated to OC.

 

[hanneroon]

cofs, my point is this discussion isn't/wasn't about operant conditioning. It may well be that this is the the way that dogs learn or humans train behaviour, you certainly think it is the case. I agree tho, i also suspect there are more subtleties at work which cannot be properly explained like this over the internet.

None of us here are experts (well some are) what we are a group of people that discuss dogs, and there are a few kind souls who are doing their very best to help others based on their experiences. One bad use of the phrase 'positive reinforcement' and here we are going round in circles, discussing operant conditioning.

No-ones spreading anything around, people are giving their opinions. With the best possible intentions....

It is daft to ask a question like the o.p. did on a forum such as this, because what you will get are peoples opinions, and then other people arguing with others phrasing. Not in the least bit helpful to the o.p.

 

[Cofs]

One bad use of the phrase 'positive reinforcement'

I understand your points, maybe you dont understand mine, so in simpler terms, 'positive reinforcment' (or negative reinforcement) is highly specific scientific terminology, it belons specificaly to B F Skinners operant conditioning, if it gets , misused & bandied around that way it will cause or alternativly strngthen the exact oposite behaviour of what is needed.

So, thats an easier way putting across what I am getting at, it really, in the interests of welfare, should not be misused be that deliberatly, by lack of understanding or just cause someone heard someone else use it. Up to you all really, but if someone tries to teach the opposite whats meant then someone or some dog or some family pays a hefty price for all that.

 

[hanneroon]

your points are on the semantics of the words postive and negative as used by people in this discussion. You are not the first person to point out the confusion that is likely to arise, as people learn about operant conditioning as it pertains to the training of their dog.

A dogs behaviour is reinforced when the consequence of that behaviour is rewarding to the dog, or even the behaviour can be rewarding in itself. Regardless of owner trying to train it, and regardless of the words we as humans use to describe it...

I used the term positive reward, a tautology, as i was trying to get folks to chill out. My last but one post was trying to explain to you that the words positive and negative are used in a certain way to describe training methods, and thats where this discussion has sprung from.

However worried you arr that these terms aren't the right ones to use when discussing training a dog, most people probably haven't come across the terms you are defending, in your context. People hopefully have got the brains to work out that these are peoples opinions, ordinary peoples opinions. You will never get someone to stop using the term reward, or reinforce or positive or negative. They are allowed to be used outside the realms of conditioning, and do have a meaning in their own context.

This is making my job of weeding in the hot sun alot more bearable, btw; I've got food for thought,

 

[Rosie33]

My thoughts too.

This thread was started by someone looking for help in curing aggression in a dog. I don't understand at what point it became about Operant Conditioning?

As far as I can see, Cofs hasn't offered any constructive advice to the OP on how to cure their dog, instead we're being browbeaten into learning all about OC.

 

[Cofs]

Just out of curiosity though a member in this thread suggested having the dog put to sleep - A.K.A killed. Isn't that far more extreme than biting the dog back?

I had a look around a few of these places, some go back years, theres something not right about all of the ones I looked at & its seems the same here, at some point i think some inconspicuous but well organised group or faction of some kind directs them, I mean the contents of your post above is just one of what seems thousands of similar non-rational posts i found, somethings not right & its not just on here, i just dont come across such dispostions in owners i've ever met.

 

[hanneroon]

right, now you have lost me.

Are you suggesting some kind of conspiracy??? There are plenty of not entirely rational folk in the world, posting allsorts of stuff. (not that i'm agreeing this is the case with nomad)

I'm intrigued tho. I think you should start a new thread, or at least explain yourself further.

 

[Cofs]

As far as I can see, Cofs hasn't offered any constructive advice to the OP

I don't like people making things up about me, it's an irrational thing for anyone to do. I suggest you visit specsavers & then go back through my posts, after a succesfull fitting at said specsavers.

 

[Rosie33]

I'm sorry, I find your posts irrational and I think you're being unnecessarily rude.

 

[hanneroon]

crikey! How dya make a disappointed smiley? will have to do.

 

[Caninecentre]

Hi

I have just been reading through the above posts and it seems you have been given a lot of good advice. I am David Meikle and I have a BA degree in Canine Behaviour and I run classes and clinics as well as a 'Dog Boot Camp'.

As I have mentioned, you have got a lot of good advice to the extent that I wasn't going to post until I read one of the last posts regarding biting your dog back.

In my professional opinion, NEVER EVER try and bite your dog back! For two reasons

1, Dogs rarely understand why you are biting them and it could trigger a challenge that he/she may decide to fight.

2, If a dog is known to bite then why on earth would you place your FACE in a position that it can bite it!

Please let common sense prevail and don't do it; please?

If you are stuck then please contact me and I'll be happy to go through any questions you have. I just do not want to overload you with suggestions at this stage

Kind regards

David