(Edited by Florence at 12:03 pm on Nov. 25, 2001)
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American vs UK/European type whippet.
- Thread starter Florence
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Hi Florence,
Two major differences in the standard are size and colour. The American standard allows whippets to be taller than in Europe. Also, the UK standard (FCI follows UK as country of origin) allows all colours or combinations of colours (of course there are some colours that whippets genetically cannot be, but in theory the standard allows all colours). I don't have the US standard to hand at the moment, and can't remember exactly how it is worded, but it stresses black pigment, which excludes dilute colours like cream and blue. In my opinion, this restricts the gene pool, and there have been/are some very beautiful creams and blues. The UK show scene would be very different today if Ch Martinsell Wild and Lonely (blue) had not been used at stud. Although he is still the only blue champion, he had several champion offspring, and many who are CC or Res CC winners.
I am sure other people who have seen more on both sides of the Atlantic will be able to tell you more about he differences and similarities of type.
Vanna
Two major differences in the standard are size and colour. The American standard allows whippets to be taller than in Europe. Also, the UK standard (FCI follows UK as country of origin) allows all colours or combinations of colours (of course there are some colours that whippets genetically cannot be, but in theory the standard allows all colours). I don't have the US standard to hand at the moment, and can't remember exactly how it is worded, but it stresses black pigment, which excludes dilute colours like cream and blue. In my opinion, this restricts the gene pool, and there have been/are some very beautiful creams and blues. The UK show scene would be very different today if Ch Martinsell Wild and Lonely (blue) had not been used at stud. Although he is still the only blue champion, he had several champion offspring, and many who are CC or Res CC winners.
I am sure other people who have seen more on both sides of the Atlantic will be able to tell you more about he differences and similarities of type.
Vanna
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It is interesting to read Vanna's comments BUT:-
Yes there is a difference in the size in the breed standard, however this doesn't mean the dogs are allowed to be larger in the US than here. In fact the opposite could be true! The UK gives a recommended height for dogs: 47-51 cms (18½-20 ins); bitches: 44-47 cms (17-18½ ins); and the US Ideal height for dogs, 19 to 22 inches; for bitches, 18 to 21 inches. BUT in the US we also get:- More than one-half inch above or below the stated limits will disqualify!!, this is not present in the UK. So a UK dog could be 24 inches and still shown but in the US this dog should be disqualified.
As far as colour (or should that be color?) is concerned there is no mention of black pigment in the US standard they quote:- Color immaterial. There are many more differences in wording between the UK and the US standards.
It keeps getting proposed that an international standard should be drawn up but that is a long way off as we have differences of opinion and interpretation of the standards within this country.
What we would like to see is either the breed being bred to the size of the standard OR the standard altered to reflect the 'real' size of the dogs of today. It is only the coursing dogs that need to be of a size but watching how the measure is used and noting the dog's stance there-under dogs above the correct height manage to sneak through.
As far as racing goes there is a vast difference between a whippet at 16lbs and one at over 30lbs although both may well be within the 'standard'.
We, also, are interested in the response of ALL exhibitors regarding differences in the breed across the world.
Yes there is a difference in the size in the breed standard, however this doesn't mean the dogs are allowed to be larger in the US than here. In fact the opposite could be true! The UK gives a recommended height for dogs: 47-51 cms (18½-20 ins); bitches: 44-47 cms (17-18½ ins); and the US Ideal height for dogs, 19 to 22 inches; for bitches, 18 to 21 inches. BUT in the US we also get:- More than one-half inch above or below the stated limits will disqualify!!, this is not present in the UK. So a UK dog could be 24 inches and still shown but in the US this dog should be disqualified.
As far as colour (or should that be color?) is concerned there is no mention of black pigment in the US standard they quote:- Color immaterial. There are many more differences in wording between the UK and the US standards.
It keeps getting proposed that an international standard should be drawn up but that is a long way off as we have differences of opinion and interpretation of the standards within this country.
What we would like to see is either the breed being bred to the size of the standard OR the standard altered to reflect the 'real' size of the dogs of today. It is only the coursing dogs that need to be of a size but watching how the measure is used and noting the dog's stance there-under dogs above the correct height manage to sneak through.
As far as racing goes there is a vast difference between a whippet at 16lbs and one at over 30lbs although both may well be within the 'standard'.
We, also, are interested in the response of ALL exhibitors regarding differences in the breed across the world.
Hi Dawn,
That serves me right answering a question, without checking my facts. I apologise, I had forgotten about the half inch either side disqualification. However, the US standard does state under "Muzzle" "Nose entirely black", so I stand by my comments on blues and creams.
However, I don't want to move away from Florence original question. What are other people's feelings on the differences in type?
That serves me right answering a question, without checking my facts. I apologise, I had forgotten about the half inch either side disqualification. However, the US standard does state under "Muzzle" "Nose entirely black", so I stand by my comments on blues and creams.
However, I don't want to move away from Florence original question. What are other people's feelings on the differences in type?
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Hi Dawn
I take it from your comment regarding measuring of coursing whippets and there stance you are giving referance to the Whippet video, where the dogs front legs are obviuosly to far apart.
I can assure everyone that the measuring of whippets for coursing is very stricked, being an official measurer i can assure you that no dog over the limit of 20" inches would be allowed to course and feel that all coursing officials have the same view. anyone caught allowing over sized dogs through in whatever disapline whether racing coursing or showing should no longer be allowed to act as an official.
unfortunatly there seems to be a trend at the moment to breed bigger & bigger whippets I personaly feel that this is a trend that should be stamped out and would be by the stricked enforcment of hight standards.
(Edited by Mark Roberts at 11:14 am on May 25, 2001)
I take it from your comment regarding measuring of coursing whippets and there stance you are giving referance to the Whippet video, where the dogs front legs are obviuosly to far apart.
I can assure everyone that the measuring of whippets for coursing is very stricked, being an official measurer i can assure you that no dog over the limit of 20" inches would be allowed to course and feel that all coursing officials have the same view. anyone caught allowing over sized dogs through in whatever disapline whether racing coursing or showing should no longer be allowed to act as an official.
unfortunatly there seems to be a trend at the moment to breed bigger & bigger whippets I personaly feel that this is a trend that should be stamped out and would be by the stricked enforcment of hight standards.
(Edited by Mark Roberts at 11:14 am on May 25, 2001)
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Hi Mark
Yes it was partly that video but also personal experience at the WC centenary show last year where there was a class for under 20 inch dogs (at least that is how I recall it). Maybe in the coursing world the restriction is more strictly adhered to; however it seemed very dubious with the measuring at the WC.
Yes it was partly that video but also personal experience at the WC centenary show last year where there was a class for under 20 inch dogs (at least that is how I recall it). Maybe in the coursing world the restriction is more strictly adhered to; however it seemed very dubious with the measuring at the WC.
Guest
Hi Dawn
it sounds to me like there may have been a bit of leiway given at the wc centenery as it was more of a celebration of the whippet rather than serious competition (watch someone correct me)
I've measured many coursing dogs that had already been measured by other coursing clubs and have never found one to be over the 20" (although some are very close 19 7/8)
but theres always going to be the bad apple in any sport, and if caught should never be allowed to act as an official again,
it sounds to me like there may have been a bit of leiway given at the wc centenery as it was more of a celebration of the whippet rather than serious competition (watch someone correct me)
I've measured many coursing dogs that had already been measured by other coursing clubs and have never found one to be over the 20" (although some are very close 19 7/8)
but theres always going to be the bad apple in any sport, and if caught should never be allowed to act as an official again,
I have been reading the posts with regards to American vs. Euorpe type whippets. Coming from New Zealand we are starting to see whippets being imported from America coming both into Austrailia and New Zealand, what I have seen myself have been bigger with longer necks, but lacking correct shoulder construction and weak fronts, not sure if this is typical of whippets or people not exporting their best to other countrys. I also think many are to over done in the angles in the rear end and lack the wide in their 2nd thigh, but again this is my opinion!! My whippets are not prefect but are "suitable for the purpose" and if your whippets are constructed in such a way as they can't run and hunt then I suggest you start again, well thats my 2 cents worth. I hope I have not step on too many toes but just going by what I have viewed myself.
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Why an internatational standard?.The whippet is a British breed, nay an English breed originating in the North of England and other mining and industrial areas. Does the American Cocker, Boston Trerrier, Chesapeake Bay Retriever, GSD. Doberman etc. have an international standard? The whippet is part of England´s canine heritage. If foreigners desire to change the K.C. standard and they are entitled to do so, the result will not be an English whippet. The Americans have changed many breed standards to suit their taste, normally resulting in bigger dogs and some people say more glamorous specimens. As I understand the situation the FCI accepts the standard of the country of origin. Regards Stephen Mason, Madrid
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Well said Stephen
The Whippet is a Brtish Breed Bred in the North and lets keep our Standard
A Northerner
The Whippet is a Brtish Breed Bred in the North and lets keep our Standard
A Northerner
Hello, I would like to give my opinion on this as well. We have the same in Belgium, but already a few years. American whippets are imported here and indeed, they look flashy because of their long necks and judges seems to like the bigger whippets anyway. And yes a lot of them don't have a very good shoulder. What I do like about them is that they are not yet breed with the very long back / loin like there are some European whippets.
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Hi, I am Canadian and of course see a lot of American types and Englich types if I may use those expressions! I have a cream bitch and because the standards in the US and Canada call for black noses she had been penalized for have dark liver. She has full pigmentation and indeed black around the eyes. A few judges used her highly regardless and commented that it was pretty silly to say that blues and creams had to have black noses etc. I think that a lot of Whippets are becoming the "generic" show dog, that is to say very fast trotters, and very animated. That seems to cause the backs to become quite flat and many have extreme angulation and straight fronts. This is my first "contribution" to this forum. I have pretty decent dogs, moderate and quite willing to course. Goodbye for now, Paulette
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