At my wits end....patterdale behaviour

[Rich ard]

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Hi everyone
I have a 7 year old male neutered patt that I've had since 8 weeks old. He's a typical pat, but we've managed him so far. For the last year, his behaviour has deteriorated. He has a very very high prey drive and will chase anything - has caught and killed hares and a cat. We have three other dogs which he generally is ok with, the odd spat here and there normally over food.
He lives in the utility room with our female lab (who interestingly never used to fight with) but he's not really allowed in the main part of the house as he can't be trusted with the other two dogs. Up until two years ago he was in a crate which he was totally fine with. He is well exercised, has a huge comfy bed, attention and good food. Up until now he's been perfectly ok with his life. Here's the issues. Every evening he will stand at the stair gate to the utility room and whine and howl. If we ignore him he attacks either his bed or the lab. We let him out, fuss him, reprimand him, tried EVERYTHING. It continues into the night and we are at the point of moving the lab into the kitchen otherwise he's constantly attacking her. Then he just barks all night. Last night I let him upstairs to be with our two (older) children but his behaviour worsened. He whined, barked and was looking at the ceiling in a bizarre way. In fact, I took him back down as I didn't want him near the children as his actions were worrying me. In the end I sedated him with xanax (from the vet) and he settled down. This is what I normally do, obviously sedating him each night is not an ideal long term solution. This has now been happening for around six months. He has been fully vet checked, have tried pain relief and we have a plug in calmer. Ideas?? The vet is scratching his head too.
I'm honestly at the point where I'm considering euthanasia. He is not a nice dog to live with

 

[Rhythmpig]

Find another vet and get a second opinion,there's something amiss with the little fella.

 

[Ari_RR]

How healthy are the other dogs, especially the lab? If the lab is getting sick, he may be reacting..

 

[JudyN]

Can you think of any changes around the time this started, however seemingly trivial? Also - and this is just a long shot but worth considering - what do you feed him? Some foods can affect some dogs' behaviour.

Oh, and a really long shot, given that you said he's been staring at the ceiling - there couldn't be any vermin up there that he can hear and you can't, I suppose?

Did the vet check thyroid levels? This can affect behaviour, though I believe interpreting them can be difficult.

Apart from that, I agree with Rhythmpig that you need a second opinion from a vet, and also you need to get a behaviourist in who can view his behaviour first hand (you could video it for them). Maybe a vet behaviourist if there's anyone close. Choose a behaviourist wisely - don't go for anyone advising that you need to be 'boss', 'pack leader' or 'alpha', or uses any form of correction for his behaviour. You really need to know what's driving the behaviour before you can fix it. But from what you've said this could be a medical rather than a behavioural issue.

It might be possible that he would benefit from long-term medication. If you could find the right drug/dose he might become more 'normal' rather than being sedated - humans often need to be on long-term medication to live a normal life so it makes sense that dogs can be the same.

 

[Rich ard]

Find another vet and get a second opinion,there's something amiss with the little fella.

He's had a second opinion. He's had blood/urine tests and X-rays. Nothing physically wrong at all

 

[Rich ard]

How healthy are the other dogs, especially the lab? If the lab is getting sick, he may be reacting..

As far as I know, they are allfine!

 

[Rich ard]

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Can you think of any changes around the time this started, however seemingly trivial? Also - and this is just a long shot but worth considering - what do you feed him? Some foods can affect some dogs' behaviour.

Oh, and a really long shot, given that you said he's been staring at the ceiling - there couldn't be any vermin up there that he can hear and you can't, I suppose?

Did the vet check thyroid levels? This can affect behaviour, though I believe interpreting them can be difficult.

Apart from that, I agree with Rhythmpig that you need a second opinion from a vet, and also you need to get a behaviourist in who can view his behaviour first hand (you could video it for them). Maybe a vet behaviourist if there's anyone close. Choose a behaviourist wisely - don't go for anyone advising that you need to be 'boss', 'pack leader' or 'alpha', or uses any form of correction for his behaviour. You really need to know what's driving the behaviour before you can fix it. But from what you've said this could be a medical rather than a behavioural issue.

It might be possible that he would benefit from long-term medication. If you could find the right drug/dose he might become more 'normal' rather than being sedated - humans often need to be on long-term medication to live a normal life so it makes sense that dogs can be the same.

possibly vermin but I would normally hear them too.
No didn't check thyroid but all other tests normal. Food wise, he is on tails, maybe worth having a chat with them I suppose.
I will contact a behaviourist, we had a brilliant trainer with one of our pups, I'm sure he can give advice. He's very positive, no harsh methods.

 

[JudyN]

If there are vermin then he'd hear them much more easily than you can but if you've heard them up there before (so know you can hear them) that seems unlikely. Unless they're really small quiet vermin!

I've had a look at Tails food - it's difficult to judge as they make a 'bespoke' formula for individual dogs (which sounds like a marketing ploy to me), but the All About Dog Food site rates it as 3.3 out of 5: Tails rated 3.3 out of 5! All About Dog Food So not great, and there are some unnecessary fillers like maize. If he's always eaten that it would seem unlikely to be related but looking at the reviews on the page I linked to, a handful of people have mentioned changes in their dogs' behaviour, and there is also mention that the company was bought out a while back and the ingredients may have changed.

However, if you look at pretty much any dog food you're likely to find at least one person will say that their dog reacted badly to the food, and it also sounds as if some of the people complaining about their dogs having upset stomachs on it swapped to it all in one go, rather than gradually. My guess would be that diet isn't a factor in your case, but it would certainly be something to consider.

 

[merlina]

Mm...this must be really hard for you. But I would agree with others that you need to rule out physical causes- that means neurological ones,in this case, changes in your poor dog's brain or nervous system. If this behaviour change has come on quite rapidly in an otherwise stable environment it would be my first thought. Good luck.

 

[TheHumanDogToy]

Hi, I grew up with the most aggressive patterdale you could imagine. Basically everything was either there to kill or attack.
The way my Dad managed to calm him down was taking him ratting, let him get that kill drive out, he also started to socialise him more though was generally a disaster it did help.

If you have allotments near you they would more than likely love to have someone bring a dog to help keep the vermin levels down.

You are battling against the dogs natural instinct to hunt, kill, catch and be praised.

Patterdales are high energy and sometime highly wound, I don’t know a Pat that hasn’t killed something at least 3-4 times a year.

I’d tire your Pat out and do something that the dog was originally bred for you may see dramatic change, eve. If it’s just that he sleeps all night. If your worried about other dogs find a enclosed dog area and let him run wild.

 

[Kara 1]

We had a young lurcher whose behaviour changed dramatically. ..had all manner of physical tests ...showed nothing ...we tried sedatives adaptils ...zylkene. ..we convinced the vet to do a head scan and he had a brain tumour. ..it broke our hearts as he was only 18 mths old .....

 

[Rich ard]

Thanks for replies.
So, it turns out the one night he was particularly bad, the pet remedy calming plug in was unplugged!! Since back in he has become more settled. I have made more of an effort varying his day by taking him for rides in the car and up to the farm (where we keep our horses and a place he loves) with me. He's been having some good long runs too.
The more dramatic change came about when we put our youngest dog in a crate overnight. Turns out she was pouncing on the old terrrier (they share the kitchen) and this was really bothering the pat I think (he could see it all through the gate separating kitchen and utility. Since we've created her, there has been no noise at night!
So fingers crossed this continues

 

[JudyN]

Aha! Sometimes it does take a bit of detective work to see what's going on.

Some people find they get a better result from the Adaptil spray rather than the plug-in, so you might want to try that too.

 

[Nanny71]

I am concerned about him killing a cat. My daughter's neighbour had an extremely aggressive dog which killed one of her cats and savaged another one of hers causing a very expensive amputation.
The neighbours excuse was the dog had to go in the garden when grandchildren visited because he would attack them.
The problem is I don't know enough about dogs to know if this behaviour can be changed.
I would have to let the dog go, not necessarily have it euthanised (dreadful word)but maybe somewhere else where there were no other animals in the house and definitely no children.

I realise very few on this forum will agree with me but these are my views.

 

[JudyN]

I am concerned about him killing a cat. My daughter's neighbour had an extremely aggressive dog which killed one of her cats and savaged another one of hers causing a very expensive amputation.

There's a world of difference between a terrier killing a cat (as upsetting as that may be) and being aggressive towards humans. The sweetest-natured dog is still a predator at heart and if it is bred to be a hunter, hunt it will, just a the sweetest-natured cat will kill a mouse. Of course, the fact that the dog you speak of could be aggressive towards children means that that dog was a concern, but killing a cat isn't a reason to think aggression towards people is likely.

 

[Nanny71]

I don't agree with most of the comments on this topic. It is not OK for any dog to kill a cat or another dog for that matter. There are laws in the UK against fox hunting, hare coursing etc. With very large fines if caught. These dogs or hounds are bred to hunt.
Most cats are in residential areas where dogs should be on leads, also there is such a thing as recall.
There can't be double standards because the dog is a terrier.

 

[JudyN]

I don't agree with most of the comments on this topic. It is not OK for any dog to kill a cat or another dog for that matter. There are laws in the UK against fox hunting, hare coursing etc. With very large fines if caught. These dogs or hounds are bred to hunt.
Most cats are in residential areas where dogs should be on leads, also there is such a thing as recall.
There can't be double standards because the dog is a terrier.

Yes, I don't disagree with any of that. What I am saying is that a dog who has the instinct to kill cats, rabbits, rats, whatever doesn't mean that the dog is potentially dangerous towards humans. But it does mean it's not being well managed. I wouldn't let mine off lead in a residential area even if it wasn't for the risk from cars because I'm sure he'd kill a cat if he could get one, and he's muzzled when offlead in other areas, partly because he would hunt rabbits & deer. I'm not saying it's OK if it's a terrier - just that it's part of their natural behaviour so they need more careful management.

 

[gavin laxton]

look at the advert in front of your eyes at top,cbd for dogs pure natural not a fan of sedating with xanax.Also have you been out of the house more than often could be some sort of separation anxiety or something similar.Had patterdales since i was a boy and just lost a 5 year bitch to IBD my vet i feel give us the wrong advice and let us down.So i agree with some that a second opinion wont harm.Also my friend had these new plug in air fresheners and sent his dog crazy.We tried to think of a change which could of started the issue and he switched them off for few days and the dog was fine so he stopped using them.Hope you get sorted for you and the kids we were heart broken losing our girl.Good luck PATTERDALE MAN

 

[gavin laxton]

look at the advert in front of your eyes at top,cbd for dogs pure natural not a fan of sedating with xanax.Also have you been out of the house more than often could be some sort of separation anxiety or something similar.Had patterdales since i was a boy and just lost a 5 year bitch to IBD my vet i feel give us the wrong advice and let us down.So i agree with some that a second opinion wont harm.Also my friend had these new plug in air fresheners and sent his dog crazy.We tried to think of a change which could of started the issue and he switched them off for few days and the dog was fine so he stopped using them.Hope you get sorted for you and the kids we were heart broken losing our girl.Good luck PATTERDALE MAN

Sorry also dont rate tails try chappie its worth a try at this point and hows his stools?

 

[merlina]

It's off thread but can I stand up for all working dogs including Patterdales? In fact all dogs have a prey drive strong or weak. I don't believe any dog with such a drive will be a hazard to humans- unless abused in some way. My beautiful gentle spaniel killed a chicken. My current one would dispatch anything in feathers! Two collies at our local farm- after years of peaceful co-existence- killed a Jack Russell overnight in the kitchen. These things are situational not to do with a vicious nature. Let the dog see the rabbit is a figure of speech for a good reason.