Bakewell

[Veredon]

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Aslan,dog shows ARE beauty contests.Conformation makes beauty.Beauty isn't just the head,expression,etc....its the whole picture.Beauty isn't just skin deep Aslan,skeletal structure,muscle tone,everything you mention contributes to a dogs beauty,so IMO dog shows are most definately beauty contests of the k9 variety.If you breed to the criteria of the standard IMO you will definately breed pretty dogs,with all the attributes to be great working dogs.If you breed and keep dogs that are close to the standard you inevitably breed attractive,beautiful whippets,capable of 'great strength'with classic whippet type.

 

[whipowill]

Aslan,dog shows ARE beauty contests.Conformation makes beauty.Beauty isn't just the head,expression,etc....its the whole picture.Beauty isn't just skin deep Aslan,skeletal structure,muscle tone,everything you mention contributes to a dogs beauty,so IMO dog shows are most definately beauty contests of the k9 variety.If you breed to the criteria of the standard IMO you will definately breed pretty dogs,with all the attributes to be great working dogs.If you breed and keep dogs that are close to the standard you inevitably breed attractive,beautiful whippets,capable of 'great strength'with classic whippet type.

As much as I love a day at the dog show and showing dogs I am going to agree with Ozzy. As long as there wasn't any form of criticism intended against those of us who find great enjoyment from such pursuits.

 

[Veredon]

No criticism aimed at anybody whipowill.I have full regard for whippet enthusiasts no matter what their preferred competition.

 

[whipowill]

No criticism aimed at anybody whipowill.I have full regard for whippet enthusiasts no matter what their preferred competition.

:cheers: Thanks for the qualification Ozzy.

Perhaps there at least two of us who are on the same page!!

 

[Veredon]

:lol: :lol: certainly no more than two :lol: :lol:

 

[BeeJay]

Firstly over time breed standards change. They change because people want them changed. They are not fixed in stone.

>i've met some people at shows and on racing tracks who really don't care about the standard as long as their dog win.....THAT's a stupid attitude :rant: :rant: :rant:

Do you understand the whole point of a race? It isn't to come last. It's to win. (From now on what I say isn't in repsonse to that quote btw)

Show breeders use a breed standard as their guide to what they should be breeding. What else would they use? What other measure have they got to work with? It's a measure of how a breed should appear. And show whippets are judged against that standard.

However racing whippets are judged against a quite different standard. They are judged by who goes over the line first. So that becomes their standard. Not something written on paper and someone's interpretation of it but something that can be seen by even a non breed expert. If by breeding to the breed standard a racing breeder produces dogs that are very slow then they simply aren't going to be bred from as they can't do the job ie win races. Which I'm afraid has happened and is happening as show bred whippets are very, very slow in comparison to racing bred whippets. That is something that is born out at every club meeting in the UK every week.

When the WCRA was formed one of it's aims was to try to stop the split in the breed as seen in the greyhound breed. However because unlike the US CWA they didn't link conformation and performance together the pedigree racing whippets and the show whippet are now very different.

What some people seem to forget is that a KC registered pedigree whippet is just that a KC registered whippet with a pedigree. Just because racing bred whippets don't fit as closely to the standard as most show bred ones do doesn't make them non KC registered whippets. Some show breds aren't that like the standard either!

Where I come from on this issue. I wonder how many others can say what I'm about to.

This year so far my whippets have been once again in the cards at champ show level and breed club level, they have been in the final of the only championship race they've been in and also won a main group, still further they have been in the points at the 1 lure coursing meeting that I've been able to get to. Of course these successes are not with the same dog and neither would I expect them to be they are with different dogs of different abilities.

Me I'm very proud of my whippets be they show bred or racing bred and their various successes. I don't have a problem with people who show their dogs, or lure course their dogs, or race their dogs or simply stay at home and enjoy their dogs. Because I do all of that. I'm also quite shocked because until I had written that above para I hadn't actually noticed how successful my dogs have been this year for me because due to unforseen circumstances we haven't competed at anything now for over 2 months. I'm now going to go and have a lie down in a darkened room to recover. :teehee:

 

[tlewis]

.If you breed and keep dogs that are close to the standard you inevitably breed attractive,beautiful whippets,capable of 'great strength'with classic whippet type.

Problem is there as many interpretations of the standard as there are people showing!

Seems every country has a different standard.

Who's right? The one closest to the dogs you own of course!

Even withinn one standard different aspects get exagerated. In the USA show ring over angulation is the favorite.

Take a look at the way show and race greyhounds have diverged. Whippets are heading down the same "Track."

 

[whipowill]

.If you breed and keep dogs that are close to the standard you inevitably breed attractive,beautiful whippets,capable of 'great strength'with classic whippet type.

Problem is there as many interpretations of the standard as there are people showing!

Never a truer word was spoken.

The original standard may well have been compiled by those who knew & understood what was required of whippet to make it gallop and win. I have no idea if there are records that show if race times are comparable or improved since those early times. But I'm sure some one will tell me it the info is out there.

The crux of the problem with using just the standard as your guide for a galloping breed, is that in a lot of cases the person who is interperating the standard (the judge on the day) may not be able to find the dogs that should be found. In other words they just don't understand the breed and it's requirements.

I make this point for Lana.

How often in the last five years have you been judged by someone who you felt actually knew more about whippets than you do you yourself? And if you choose to answer this question then think about the total number of shows you have been to. I'm sure you'll be able to do the math.

You and I have both flirted briefly with the judges training scheme in this country.

Admittedly I was on the Open Show panel for the gundog group. There are several reasons that I no longer show in that group, but one of them stems from the fact that I know much more about Vizlas than nearly all of the judges who are judging that group. Why would I want their opinion and better still why would I pay good money for it?

That said please remember I love dogs showing. Just see it in a different light than others.

 

[Cartman]

How often in the last five years have you been judged by someone who you felt actually knew more about whippets than you do you yourself? And if you choose to answer this question then think about the total number of shows you have been to.  I'm sure you'll be able to do the math. .

I know I look at thing from another angle. But lets say< How many times in the last 5 years were you 100% happy with the breed judging. Breed level only.

Regardless of what you know about a breed you can still win by plain dumb luck. Or be beaten the same way. I think one of the best shows was one where I got a Res CC, & 2 classes. I thought that was great because the judge treated every dog with the same respect. The winners were what I would expect that person to own as well.

How many times have you been to a show, & while the judge looks at the eyes & counts the ears, say something like "Hot today" or "could rain". ?

 

[BeeJay]

>The original standard may well have been compiled by those who knew & understood what was required of whippet to make it gallop and win. I have no idea if there are records that show if race times are comparable or improved since those early times. But I'm sure some one will tell me it the info is out there.

I don't know if you have this book but the best (only?) book on early whippets is The Whippet Or Race Dog by Freeman Lloyd. You can pay big money for an original copy or you can spend a couple of quid on the recently released paper back reprint like me. (I've seen it listed as whippet and race ; and also whippet as race)

Incidentally I've edited this post not because I've been argumentative or made personal remarks to anyone but simply because it contained my educated guesses rather than anything that I know.

Someone on here mentioned that I remove and edit my posts. Well I do that quite often because I write things and then think that's a load of boring drivel that people don't want to have clogging up the board. Or I've said that before. Or that's way too long. Or I change my mind and just don't want to get into any discussion. I very, very rarely remove a post that I'm ashamed of sending. And in my earlier posts that I removed I hadn't been offensive to anyone unlike my later post which is still on here.

 

[BeeJay]

>I have no idea if there are records that show if race times are comparable or improved since those early times. But I'm sure some one will tell me it the info is out there.

I've seen it stated that peddie winning race times haven't got any fast over the decades since the WCRA was formed.

Judy is a repository of volumes of info on the subject so she'll be able to be much more precise than me and explain the differences in time between hand timer's and automatic timing ie from when the traps open.

However if it's true that when the original show bred dogs like the Laguna's were racing and becoming champions they were as fast as the peddie racing bred dogs today. Then what's happened to today's show bred dogs? Because that would mean that they've got slower (w00t) .

This has nothing to do with show condition btw as show breds that are kept in racing condition are still very uncompetitive. :- "

 

[whipowill]

Asking this question because I don't know. I do remember you told me that they look quite different to today's show whippets. But then the whole breed has progressed in the last 50 or 60 or so years hasn't it.

Are today's peddie racers vastly different to look at compared to the show breds of yesteryear including the Laguna's that could race and be competitive?

 

[JAX]

But then the whole breed has progressed in the last 50 or 60 or so years hasn't it.

But has it ? some would say not .

Personnaly i dont find those whippets of 50-60 years ago appealing to the eye .,but thats only because I have only been seeing Whippets for the last 20 odd years .

Mine are show bred and given the chance still catch rabbits and the odd crow .

I agree with Debbie (Alflyn) (w00t) as long as they are healthy in mind and body , conform to the KC standard and give me love and affection that is returned by me and OH I PERSONNALY dont care wether they are fast enough to win races or not.

Ive seen the mess that they`ve done to the Greyhound ( otherwise Id have had Greyhounds )and trust me , Ive [SIZE=14pt]NO INTENSION[/SIZE] of doing the same to the Whippet .

So maybe the breed has progressed form the last 50-60years

 

[BeeJay]

Asking this question because I don't know.  I do remember you told me that they look quite different to today's show whippets. But then the whole breed has progressed in the last 50 or 60 or so years hasn't it.
Are today's peddie racers vastly different to look at compared to the show breds of yesteryear including the Laguna's that could race and be competitive?

IMO peddie racers do look very different to peddie show breds.

I think that whippets have changed in response to being bred for purpose. And as I've said before that doesn't bother me at all. It's actually what I would expect to happen if breeders are getting it right and trying to 'improve' the breed.

Personally from photos I prefer how show dogs look now to then but I've never put my hands on those old dogs or seen them move. I also prefer the look of a nicely (IMO) constructed show bred to a racing bred dog.

As I've only seen photos of the Laguna dogs from that time then I can't answer if they would look like todays racing dogs I'd have to see them side by side. You could ask this on the peddie racing forum and see if anyone goes back that far. Some people on this board were racing in the beginning of the WCRA.

However something that I found the other day when looking at whippet peds. Is that in the US a litter was born last year sired through AI by a dog who is dead but his sperm was frozen. I think that that is a very interesting experiment. The sire in question is a UK imported dog called Tom Terrific (Ch Deepridge Martell x Ch Deepridge Maxine). Shame that we never did such things over here (or did we?) as then we could breed a litter and prove them in reality.

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

This has nothing to do with show condition btw as show breds that are kept in racing condition are still very uncompetitive.  :- "

In the October 03 meet of the NWARG at Ellesmere port Lesley Fletcher (Shuleah) turned up with a dog called "Flute" don't know his ped name but he's a Song & Dance man son all show bred. He clocked the best time of the day exact time escapes me I've lost the sheet but he did 266 metres in better than 19 sec. This was his first outing on a race track & he was in "show condition". Also there were two whippets both bred from racing champions. One I know for certain had run on sand. The other was only a yearling so I don't honestly know. However both were slower than "Flute" by 2 or 3 pips both were in "race condition". Admittedly this is a bruiser of a whippet. Nice looking but BIG but many experts reckon the optimum size for speed is 26 to 30 lbs after that there is little extra speed for the extra pounds. Our own dog Ben again all show bred used to do better than 19 on the same track & could do 150 in 9.5/9.6 on grass 'til he dropped a muscle again he is a big 'un (1/2" over the wcra limit) but could make 32lbs easily.

I personally don't think there is such a huge difference between types. The ped racer IMO looks more like a show bred ped than it does a non-ped whippet. Of course there are many sub-types within racing just as there are sub-types within showing they aren't all clones & it is pretty pointless to generalise.

You hit the nail on the head Barbara in your earlier post when you said the whole point was to win. This same axiom goes for showing if the overly exaggerated whippet wins then it's a good 'un and is selected to produce more of the same. I have no beef about winning wish we could do some :b But it would be good to see people breeding not just for now but for 3 or 4 dog generations down the line. There is speed buried away amongst the show lines. Some of todays top race lines go back to dogs like Ch Ladiesfield Bedazzeled & Nimrodel Rosefinch which still compare with some of todays show dogs. There are few pedigrees that don't have Lagunas & their predecesors in them so all ped whippets have common progenitors

I know I've said all this before but I still think it's true. Theres a (chinese?) saying that some times you have to take some backward steps to make a big leap. Some of us may not be in the prizes for 2 or 3 seasons perhaps more but if the end result is a true all round dog wouldn't it be worth it?

Terry Smith

 

[Cartman]

Someone on here mentioned that I remove and edit my posts.  Well I do that quite often because I write things and then think that's a load of boring drivel that people don't want to have clogging up the board.  Or I've said that before.  Or that's way too long.  Or I change my mind and just don't want to get into any discussion.  I very, very rarely remove a post that I'm ashamed of sending.  And in my earlier posts that I removed I hadn't been offensive to anyone unlike my later post which is still on here.

:thumbsup: :huggles: :cheers:

 

[aslan]

1. You hit the nail on the head Barbara in your earlier post when you said the whole point was to win. This same axiom goes for showing if the overly exaggerated whippet wins then it's a good 'un and is selected to produce more of the same.
2.  There is speed buried away amongst the show lines. Some of todays top race lines go back to dogs like Ch Ladiesfield Bedazzeled & Nimrodel Rosefinch which still compare with some of todays show dogs. There are few pedigrees that don't have Lagunas & their predecesors in them so all ped whippets have common progenitors

3.  it would be good to see people breeding not just for now but for 3 or 4 dog generations down the line.Theres a (chinese?) saying that some times you have to take some backward steps to make a big leap. Some of us may not be in the prizes for 2 or 3 seasons perhaps more but if the end result is a true all round dog wouldn't it be worth it?

Terry Smith

1. You are right Terry. And the disappointing thing is that there are so many people (in all pursuits) who just put winner to winner without ever learning about anatomy (or taking it into consideration) or researching a pedigree. I am still learning about anatomy and I have been a devotee of showing for 30 years. (and I guess now some people now will have a shot at me about being a slow learner )

2. A genuine Thank You for making this point.

3. There are many amongst the show fraternity who don't just breed to and for the fashion of the day. (Though sadly, I have to admit there are many who do) There are many who breed for what they believe to be correct even though it does not sit well with what is currently winning. There are many who delve into the depths of their own dogs' pedigrees and try to take those few steps backwards to bring things into perspective. I remember a while ago I mentioned my interest in working back towards Gainscliffe Renown (just one of the dogs at the back of my pedigrees that I am interested in) and because, of course, I had never seen him in the flesh, I asked for the opinions of those who had. If I remember correctly, a couple of people said that while he was a nice dog he would not win today. Do you think that turned me off the idea.....

And yes - if it got me what I want it would most certainly be worth it ....

 

[Cartman]

If I remember correctly, a couple of people said that while he was a nice dog he would not win today.  Do you think that turned me off the idea.....

Good point. There are several dogs in my lines that I would not have in my kennel today. I have also had some whippets that I have shown, but today would not. The answer is not not so much that we change with "fashion". But more so with DEPTH of quallity. IMHO..........TTFN

 

[tlewis]

When the WCRA was formed one of it's aims was to try to stop the split in the breed as seen in the greyhound breed.  However because unlike the US CWA they didn't link conformation and performance together the pedigree racing whippets and the show whippet are now very different.

I have to tell you that the majority of Whippet racers in the USA have nothing but dislike and contempt for the CWA.

There aims may be admirable, but their practice of banning all but show lines from racing with their association make their program a farce.

The serious racing lines and the show lines are just as far apart in the USA as they are in the UK.

 

[aslan]

If I remember correctly, a couple of people said that while he was a nice dog he would not win today.  Do you think that turned me off the idea.....

Good point. There are several dogs in my lines that I would not have in my kennel today. I have also had some whippets that I have shown, but today would not. The answer is not not so much that we change with "fashion". But more so with DEPTH of quallity. IMHO..........TTFN

Um, Cartman, I'm not sure, but you might have misunderstood me.

I was not turned off at all by people saying that he would not win today. It actually made me a little more determined to pursue what I liked because there is quite a bit of what IS winning today that I don't like.