Bakewell

[JAX]

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Just a small observation, but you do seem to me to be a bit aggressive with your replies Terry Smith

This is a friendly forum and if people wish to have seudanism`s (sp) then thats up to them :angry:

Jackie Whitaker Crosby AKA jax , because Jackie was not available :- "

 

[gajo]

My point is that moving everyone at the same pace is actually not the "fair" thing to do. It may seem the fairest for those who can't show their dogs to their best- but it is hardly fair to the dogs themselves. Bit like saying to an athlete "don't run/jump/throw your hardest today love- we want it to be fair for everyone- don't worry the judges will stil be able to see which athlete is best."

Like it or not- conformation showing is competetive by design.

As for putting my name to things- no problems there- have to stand up in front of hundreds and at times thousands to express my views every week. I won't be providing all of their names and addresses, but honestly I could, privacy laws and space of course, would prevent me from doing so. Having posted to K9 for a couple of years now most would know my name- so certainly no hiding intended.

Oh, and one other thing. The "mealy mouthed" quaification was genuine. :clown: Didn't really think that any one would be offended by the word rot . My apologies for offending your sensibilities Mr and Mrs Smith.

Gary(ga) and Joanne(jo) Austen. :thumbsup:

 

[aslan]

Some dogs do hackney if moved to fast ( one of our most famous of whippets did , but the handler knew the correct pace for the dog ) :- "
Lana mentions about the trotting horses covering much the same distance in time as a galloped horse , but of course the trotters are doing an EXTENDED and somewhat exagerated trot  , not something ive ever seen a whippet do . :blink:

So that handler actually slowed the dog down to HIDE its hackney action. My opinion is that if the dog hackneyed when moved faster than a slow trot (just out of a walk) then his action was hackneyed.

To demonstrate this point (and to give Terry MY own experience) I have a bitch whose front action is suspect. At a walk or a slow trot (that's her gait I'm talking about, not mine) she seems fine but as soon as she moves into a medium paced trot you can see that she breaks in pastern. She is not hackneyed ie she doesn't have an exaaggerated lift action but during the action the front leg doesn't maintain its extension. Now around my yard she is as fast as any of the others but I would lay money that were she asked to race on a regular basis she would break down in front. The front is not absorbing the shock as it should.

Well go on! How long in your experience of performance whippets will "he" last? Inquiring minds want to know. Quote Terry Smith.

You know Terry that I don't have experience in racing or coursing whippets, and everybody else on this board knows that too - I have never hidden that fact, so don't just have a little quip at me to try to highlight my inexperience in that field. Just come right out and say it. Just because I don't race my dogs doesn't mean that I am not trying to breed dogs that can.

Isn't it just a pure and simple fact that if a dog is not constructed correctly to do the job required of it, that, while it may be able to do the job initially - just on 'heart' or whatever - but if it has a structural fault eventually that fault will give way and the animal will break down, or suffer recurring injuries in that area?

The extended and "exaggerated" trot that Jax mentions of today's "trotters" is actually a PACE. Even our harness racing tracks here are now called "Paceways". Harness Racers used to trot but today they PACE - it is a totally different gait to the trot and at speed is slightly faster than the trot because it is an easier gait to use. That is why pacers have overtaken the trotters in harness racing.

The trot, although it is a two-time gait it relies on the diagonal supports - front right & back left, front left and back right. The pace, while still a two-time gait, relies on lateral supports - the front right and back right move in unison, while the two left legs do the same. It is known as a fatigue gait - and most dogs do it when they are tired, or out of condition and therefore reluctant to use the lateral displacement that the trot and other gaits require.

So the best handled is invariably the best whippet? Doesn't a fair system allow the best to emerge from a class? Quote Terry Smith

No, we're not talking about the ability of the handler here Terry. We're talking about the gait of the dog and which one shows the dog's movement the best. And actually if the dog has a movement fault and it's handler is HIDING that by moving the dog slowly then he perhaps is actually the better handler than the person who allows his dog with the same fault to move at some speed and reveal it.

The best gait which puts all dogs on a level playing field and shows the movement the way it is described in the standard is the TROT - at a medium speed.

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

[

" Bit like saying to an athlete "don't run/jump/throw your hardest today love- we want it to be fair for everyone- don't worry the judges will stil be able to see which athlete is best.""

Running, Jumping,throwing events are judged simply on who runs fastest,jumps furthest or highest or throws furthest. At least they were when I competed. A judges influence in these sports in minimal. They just have to use a tape or stop watch. I know in some parts of the world dog showing is classed as a "sport" but as far as I know it isn't recognised as such in this country.

 

 

 

"Like it or not- conformation showing is competetive by design."

By design? Or by desire to win no matter what you take into a ring with you. A show catalogue over here names EXHIBITORS not COMPETITORS. Perhaps we should reclass the whole thing as "dog HANDLING competitions". Human nature being what it is I'm sure large mainly mature ladies whizzing round a ring would draw an audience.

Oh, and one other thing. The "mealy mouthed" quaification was genuine. Didn't really think that any one would be offended by the word rot . My apologies for offending your sensibilities Mr and Mrs Smith.

Mrs Smith has more sense than to write/read stuff on this forum so she wasn't offended I put my name on the bottom of my stuff. Don't think offended was the right word I stated my opinion thats all.

I don't want to see the handlers taking over from the dogs. In this country pro handlers have been a rarity & showing or any other dog stuff has been within the reach of every man/ woman. In many parts of the world it costs a great deal of money to make a dog up. Overseas exhibitors whinged for years about the difficulties in getting to show in this country now they can they appear to be whinging that their style of showing isn't appreciated. Personally I woudn't tell someone with 40 years or more experience in the breed & as exhibitors they were doing it wrong. I say this from a pretty neutral position we enter about one show a year mainly our local clubs limit & sometimes their open. We do this knowing we will take zilch but support local events for the good of the club & possibly in the long term for the good of the breed. We've never been known to cry when we didn't pick anything up.

 

Terry Smith

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

Some dogs do hackney if moved to fast ( one of our most famous of whippets did , but the handler knew the correct pace for the dog ) :- "
Lana mentions about the trotting horses covering much the same distance in time as a galloped horse , but of course the trotters are doing an EXTENDED and somewhat exagerated trot  , not something ive ever seen a whippet do . :blink:

So that handler actually slowed the dog down to HIDE its hackney action. My opinion is that if the dog hackneyed when moved faster than a slow trot (just out of a walk) then his action was hackneyed.

To demonstrate this point (and to give Terry MY own experience) I have a bitch whose front action is suspect. At a walk or a slow trot (that's her gait I'm talking about, not mine) she seems fine but as soon as she moves into a medium paced trot you can see that she breaks in pastern. She is not hackneyed ie she doesn't have an exaaggerated lift action but during the action the front leg doesn't maintain its extension. Now around my yard she is as fast as any of the others but I would lay money that were she asked to race on a regular basis she would break down in front. The front is not absorbing the shock as it should.

Well go on! How long in your experience of performance whippets will "he" last? Inquiring minds want to know. Quote Terry Smith.

You know Terry that I don't have experience in racing or coursing whippets, and everybody else on this board knows that too - I have never hidden that fact, so don't just have a little quip at me to try to highlight my inexperience in that field. Just come right out and say it. Just because I don't race my dogs doesn't mean that I am not trying to breed dogs that can.

Isn't it just a pure and simple fact that if a dog is not constructed correctly to do the job required of it, that, while it may be able to do the job initially - just on 'heart' or whatever - but if it has a structural fault eventually that fault will give way and the animal will break down, or suffer recurring injuries in that area?

The extended and "exaggerated" trot that Jax mentions of today's "trotters" is actually a PACE. Even our harness racing tracks here are now called "Paceways". Harness Racers used to trot but today they PACE - it is a totally different gait to the trot and at speed is slightly faster than the trot because it is an easier gait to use. That is why pacers have overtaken the trotters in harness racing.

The trot, although it is a two-time gait it relies on the diagonal supports - front right & back left, front left and back right. The pace, while still a two-time gait, relies on lateral supports - the front right and back right move in unison, while the two left legs do the same. It is known as a fatigue gait - and most dogs do it when they are tired, or out of condition and therefore reluctant to use the lateral displacement that the trot and other gaits require.

So the best handled is invariably the best whippet? Doesn't a fair system allow the best to emerge from a class? Quote Terry Smith

No, we're not talking about the ability of the handler here Terry. We're talking about the gait of the dog and which one shows the dog's movement the best. And actually if the dog has a movement fault and it's handler is HIDING that by moving the dog slowly then he perhaps is actually the better handler than the person who allows his dog with the same fault to move at some speed and reveal it.

The best gait which puts all dogs on a level playing field and shows the movement the way it is described in the standard is the TROT - at a medium speed.

Some dogs do hackney if moved to fast ( one of our most famous of whippets did , but the handler knew the correct pace for the dog ) :- "
Lana mentions about the trotting horses covering much the same distance in time as a galloped horse , but of course the trotters are doing an EXTENDED and somewhat exagerated trot  , not something ive ever seen a whippet do . :blink:

So that handler actually slowed the dog down to HIDE its hackney action. My opinion is that if the dog hackneyed when moved faster than a slow trot (just out of a walk) then his action was hackneyed.

To demonstrate this point (and to give Terry MY own experience) I have a bitch whose front action is suspect. At a walk or a slow trot (that's her gait I'm talking about, not mine) she seems fine but as soon as she moves into a medium paced trot you can see that she breaks in pastern. She is not hackneyed ie she doesn't have an exaaggerated lift action but during the action the front leg doesn't maintain its extension.

If the leg remains extended as it strikes the ground it takes more stress than one which bends & gathers ground look at some of the racing picturs you can see feet at some very odd angles

Now around my yard she is as fast as any of the others but I would lay money that were she asked to race on a regular basis she would break down in front. The front is not absorbing the shock as it should.

You know Terry that I don't have experience in racing or coursing whippets, and everybody else on this board knows that too - I have never hidden that fact, so don't just have a little quip at me to try to highlight my inexperience in that field. Just come right out and say it.

Just keeping it light

Just because I don't race my dogs doesn't mean that I am not trying to breed dogs that can.

No offence Lana but you ain't. You are breeding dogs to try to win conformation shows from stock that hasn't been athletically tested for years

Isn't it just a pure and simple fact that if a dog is not constructed correctly to do the job required of it, that, while it may be able to do the job initially - just on 'heart' or whatever - but if it has a structural fault eventually that fault will give way and the animal will break down, or suffer recurring injuries in that area?

Granted that can happen, but most dogs will break down sometime or other. Keep taking the bucket to the well it's bound to come up dry one day

The extended and "exaggerated" trot that Jax mentions of today's "trotters" is actually a PACE. Even our harness racing tracks here are now called "Paceways". Harness Racers used to trot but today they PACE

I've been away from harness racing for many years now but some of my family used to do it. You will of course correct me if I am wrong but pacers & trotters are a genetic thing. You can't train a horse to pace from my recollection. Pacers always have been faster by a good few pips. However pacers were always susceptible to injury because of their lateral gait. Trotters usually ran "clean legged" whereas trotters needed bell boots, gaiters etc to stop them ripping their own legs to pieces. As stated by others this is not a truly natural gait it is only maintained on the bit. Put a harness racing stallion in the same field as an in use mare & it doesn't trot over to it (or pace for that matter0

.

So the best handled is invariably the best whippet? Doesn't a fair system allow the best to emerge from a class? Quote Terry Smith

No, we're not talking about the ability of the handler here Terry. We're talking about the gait of the dog and which one shows the dog's movement the best. And actually if the dog has a movement fault and it's handler is HIDING that by moving the dog slowly then he perhaps is actually the better handler than the person who allows his dog with the same fault to move at some speed and reveal it.

The best gait which puts all dogs on a level playing field and shows the movement the way it is described in the standard is the TROT - at a medium speed.

Therefore the dog showing more reach & drive is the superior athelete to one that doesn't? If so would you say that the dogs entered in sporting classes are showing more trad than their show bred counterparts? Sorry Lana you still haven't convinced me

Terry Smith

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

Just a small observation, but you do seem to me to be a bit aggressive with your replies Terry Smith  :

Really? I can't see where I've dismissed your or anybody elses observations/opinions as rot,trash, garbage etc. Do I have to curb my tongue in the presence of my betters & take stuff like that lying down?
Terry Smith

 

[whipowill]

This has become a very intersting thread.

Each side of this discussion has some very valid points.

Thought I might add my 10 cents worth even thought I don't have the experience in whippets that many do. My experience is mainly in gundogs working and showing since 1977.

Firstly much of the information that is available to show folks including the book Lana mentions (I speak for Australia only here) is relevant to dogs whose conformation requires them to have endurance much like a long distance runner. Where the dog works at much slower or even fatigue saving gait over great distances for a long time. The way a gundog works for hours at a time.

Where as it would seem (and correct me if I'm wrong) that whippet racing and conformation is & should be geared towards a shorter time frame at high speed.

And this is the information I tried to glean when I first joined this board.

In my humble opinion for whippets to have great speed, balance in fore and aft agulation would be more important than anything else. Not necessarily great amounts at either end, just balance so that no energy would be wasted and your push and pull when galloping would be the same.

However I am more than willing to be proved wrong on this point if someone can demonstate to me why I am wrong.

Kerry McKay.

Aranyoz Hungarian Vizslas

Australia.

 

[Cartman]

Our standard calls for a "daisy cutting" gait which as I understand it isn't a trot. Whippets are gallopers not trotters & a trotting action doesn't really tell you anything about it's athletic ability.  Terry Smith

Athletic ability..........Well I was not going to say anything about this topic, but!! The "athletic ability" ??? Is this to imply that "we" the show people can not breed whippets with athletic ability? It is the conformation people that keep the breed alive. We, & I hope many other show people, breed to the standard as close as posible. The only variations are your own views on how you see the standard.

I do not want to race my whippets. There is no reason for me to do so. Why should I????? To show Athletis Ability........crap.

Whippets that are breed to race are on a whole, smaller lumps of an animal that has not yet evolved. Breeding them for the purpose of that they were ment for. From the shallow end of the gene pool. A 14" muntant that fits under the coal miners coat. Big deal.

In humans, we have seen over only 4 generations a vast change in our body shape. If we were to breed to be what we started out to be, then we would still be climbing trees.

I would rather be at the dog show, thank you.

JON GUNN

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

Is this to imply that "we" the show people can not breed whippets with athletic ability?

Some can some can't Nimrodels, Moonlakes, Jarmane, Derohan all look like functional whippets. However from the lavish praise some of the exaggerated specimens get on this site I don't think some know what a functional whippet is.

It is the conformation people that keep the breed alive.

Oh really read the racing pages more often. There are plenty of litters advertised plus at this moment there is an ongoing argument about breed purity (see WCRA 2nd champs results.)

We, & I hope many other show people, breed to the standard as close as posible. The only variations are your own views on how you see the standard.

I do not want to race my whippets. There is no reason for me to do so. Why should I????? To show Athletis Ability........crap.

What about the bit that says built for speed & work or is that one bit you don't want to view?

Whippets that are breed to race are on a whole, smaller lumps of an animal that has not yet evolved. Breeding them for the purpose of that they were ment for. From the shallow end of the gene pool. A 14" muntant that fits under the coal miners coat. Big deal.

Find & Show me a 14" one! Come to that find & show me a coal miner.

In humans, we have seen over only 4 generations a vast change in our body

Funny one of your allies in this argument had a good one with me last year about how the standard was sacred & that creeping changes to the breed should be stamped on.

shape. If we were to breed to be what we started out to be, then we would still be climbing trees.

From the lucidity of your argument I thought you still were.

I would rather be at the dog show, thank you.

No need to thank me son you go to the dog show!!.

Terry Smith

 

[Cartman]

Well, I have had my say. Even if some liked it or not. If I were to respond to Mr. Smith's comments of rudness, then I would only be lowering myself to standards like his.

 

[Angus]

Well, I have had my say. Even if some liked it or not. If I were to respond to Mr. Smith's comments of rudness, then I would only be lowering myself to standards like his.

Well said cartman i could not agree with you more :thumbsup: :blink: :blink:

 

[whipowill]

>Generally they tend to be straighter than show bred whippets.  Moderate angulation to straight.  Which goes totally against what the UK KC teach in their confirmation and movement seminars.  They say that straight angulation ='s stamina not speed.  As we all know UK racing whippets are sprinters, don't run over 240 yards.

I had guessed that straighter angulation might be the go in racers and am not at all surprised as part of my extended family was involved in greyhound racing for many years.

Just as an aside to this discussion when & how did the first breed standard for whippets come to be developed and were people who worked or raced their dogs involved in it.

Or was it developed by those who first exhibited at dog shows and came into whippets via another avenue e.g. other breeds, horses etc. Not saying that we should go back there just saying we may well learn a thing or two from it.

As this might actually spread some more light on how the breed originally came about. Was it originally developed as a racing dog or a poachers dog etc.

I still think that the information that is available about this breed and it's unique form and function is wanting. So unless there is an alternative to the information that is out there this is the best dog fraternity has to offer.

As I said before the info available is for breeds which evolved for other purposes.

Terry instead of writing off those of us who do not have the advantage of having your years of experience, please give it so that we will want to hear more of it.

Just by the by this is in the Showing Forum and started out as a simple comment about a handler running fast. And the decision or not to accept or reward that type of handling lies squarely at the feet of the judge on the day.

 

[whipowill]

I agree with Dawn and Aslan,you move to pace that suits your Dog best,LONG EASY STRIDE is what the standard asks for.A dog with goood movment will cover the ground moving efficiently and moving at varied speeds should not be a problem to a true mover.

Just to get this thread back on track I also agree with those above whippeteers.

You should handle your dog the way you feel gets the best from it, and running it too fast does not always make you a winner.

 

[JAX]

MR SMITH says his wife neither reads nor comments on K9 ,( as though it were beneath her )

I think I would prefer it if he didnt either . :- "

 

[aslan]

Now, now - let's calm down. A spirited discussion is always a good thing - but let's not get carried away with personal insults - that's the sort of thing that will bring this forum down. Please.... let's be able to express our opinions on the topic not on each other!

Generally they tend to be straighter than show bred whippets. Moderate angulation to straight. Which goes totally against what the UK KC teach in their confirmation and movement seminars. They say that straight angulation ='s stamina not speed

Sorry Beejay but I'm a bit confused here.

If racing whippets have straighter angulation than show whippets - shouldn't your last sentence there read "Straight angulation = speed, not stamina" ?

Or did you mean that the UK KC says that straight angulation = stamina?

My understanding is that straight angulation will definitely not produce stamina. Considering the breeds where stamina is required - none of those standards ask for straight angulation.

 

[BeeJay]

>Whippets that are breed to race are on a whole, smaller lumps of an animal that has not yet evolved. Breeding them for the purpose of that they were ment for. From the shallow end of the gene pool.

Given that this comment was made about racing bred whippets and given that I own one.

Furthermore given that NONE of you have seen fit to comment on that piece of rudeness other than to say that you agree with Cartman.

Then I'm sure that you will understand that I am not prepared to carry on with this discussion with people such as yourselves. I have deleted my earlier posts.

 

[~JO~]

Good God (w00t) What happened here then? Turn my back for a second....

My only comment here is that pesonally I feel pretty agreived by the continual assumption that show dogs have no athletic ability - I know Terry that you said some do look like functional dogs (I assure you there are many more affixes than just those you named that are fully functional outside the ring and do well in the ring).

However I have bitten my tongue on several occasions recently - regarding comments that show dogs should be ' the fatter the better' etc. Personally, and I think several others here will agree with me that they do the same and would NEVER show an overweight dog and I pride myself that I try and keep myself in hard condition and I primarily show.

Lets hope this thread can continue without the need to end up as a personal slanging match.

 

[whipowill]

BeeJay, I am sorry that you feel this way.

Your posts were the one's I was interested in.

It is not possible for myself to pass judgement on what racing bred whippets in the UK actually look. I do not really know so I said nothing. I cannot speak for others.

I have only ever seen about 4 whippets that race here in Oz and they were bred from show stock so there is no way I can make a comparsion.

I'm not sure but I do believe that the 14" lump comment was thrown out there to cause a reaction. And it did. (Feel free to correct me here if you must Cartman)

Not sure if you were the intended target.

 

[Cartman]

Then I'm sure that you will understand that I am not prepared to carry on with this discussion with people such as yourselves.  I have deleted my earlier posts.

Bee Jay. I said what I think is to be true. Like it or not, that is up to you. But I take it that you now have attacked myself on a personal basis, with your statment.

Also, why not look at the cause of why everyone is at each other neck. We, as show people and or whippet people in general, were set apon by Mr. Smith & Mrs. Smith.

This was a great site befor such comments, from each side, was raised. Now I suggest that you as a moderator, should not be so shallow as to of made statments & with a click of the key board wipe them off.

I am sure, I know I have, made statments in the heat of the moment. BUT I will live with that.

So why dont you delete all posts, or put yours back. OR is that not to your liking.

At the end of the day, I breed for conformation. You breed for race times regardless of the conformation. True or faulse?

Again, I will stand by my comments. I can not delete posts.

 

[aslan]

If the leg remains extended as it strikes the ground it takes more stress than one which bends & gathers ground look at some of the racing picturs you can see feet at some very odd angles 

This I understand and agree with you but you're talking about the required pastern flexiblity with the foot on the ground and you're also talking about the gallop. I was talking about her leg as it moves through the air reaching forward at the trot. The forearm is extended but the pastern is looking almost perpendicular to the ground (before the foot actually touches the ground) when it should actually be thrown forward with the rest of the leg. The pastern position, during the 'air swing' part of the motion, almost looks like it does in a hackney action but as I said, she doesn't lift the forearm high as hackneys do. Therefore with the action this bitch has, she would not have that pastern flexibility you spoke of that is required at the gallop and she would suffer for it - as I said in the first place.

Just because I don't race my dogs doesn't mean that I am not trying to breed dogs that can. Quote Lana

No offence Lana but you ain't. You are breeding dogs to try to win conformation shows from stock that hasn't been athletically tested for years Quote Terry

I am slightly offended in that I don't think that you can know what I am trying to do in my breeding program. I believe that I am trying to breed dogs that can do whatever their owner wants them to do - race, chase, show. Secondly I'm not certain that you would know all the dogs in my dogs' pedigrees and whether they have or have not for years been "athletically tested"? I don't even know that.

You will of course correct me if I am wrong but pacers & trotters are a genetic thing. You can't train a horse to pace from my recollection. Quote Terry.

That may be so - and I don't know for sure so I won't argue - but I did not mean that trotters BECAME pacers. What I meant was that pacing became the preferred form. We don't even HAVE trotting races here any more. All harness racing here now is PACING (but people still say that they're going to the 'trots'.)

However pacers were always susceptible to injury because of their lateral gait. Trotters usually ran "clean legged" whereas trotters (pacers?) needed bell boots, gaiters etc to stop them ripping their own legs to pieces. Quote Terry

How could it possibly be that pacers needed guards on the legs - the feet on each side are moving in the same direction at the same time! The foot of the hind leg doesn't come anywhere near the front leg! It is in the trot that this happens

It would be the trotters who needed the guards and it would be from poor construction that they would be clipping their own legs with their feet - like a dog (on the trot) who overdrives (back leg crosses over the front one as the front one is leaving the ground) or a dog who crabs - they are doing that so that their back feet don't hit their front ones and it's a fault in their angulation or coupling that makes them do that. A dog who is well constructed moves his front foot clear before the back one hits it.

Therefore the dog showing more reach & drive is the superior athelete to one that doesn't? If so would you say that the dogs entered in sporting classes are showing more trad than their show bred counterparts? Sorry Lana you still haven't convinced me Quote Terry

In answer to your first question, theoretically, yes. But as we have discussed before at other times in other threads there are other factors that come into play when a dog is racing - heart, desire for the chase etc. Some dogs with structural inaccuracies will go a long way on heart. But again I ask - how long can they go on consistently winning at that level of competition if, for example the shoulders or pasterns aren't absorbing shock the way they should?

In answer to the second question - I firstly need some clarification - sporting classes are classes at shows for racing whippets? And is the word "TRAD" you use an abbreviation for reach and drive? If so, then again, theoretically, yes, the dogs in these classes - if they are proven consistently-winning racers - then yes, they should be showing the same reach and drive as the good show dogs.

Lastly I don't think I am ever going to convince you no matter what I say. But I must say for the most part I thoroughly enjoy our discussions. I think we may have to accept the fact that we think differently and resolve to remain friends despite that fact. :thumbsup: