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BREED STANDARD

Discussion in 'Dog Sports' started by hounded, Jan 30, 2001.

  1. hounded

    hounded New Member Registered

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    Having several Whippets, whom I refuse to name, well mabe later - perhaps. But for the meantime, and without telling me to join a racing club. Which could not possibly contend with my lightning fast pedigree dogs. But, and there's that but again, my dogs are all very different sizes. Starting with she that is all in a knowing glance, and stands at 19 and a bit inches. Whilst her paramour is twenty one and a half inches tall. No wonder he can run! He's up there with those old Irish stag hounds when given the chance. And yet his little daughter, who theres absolutely nothing of at seventeen inches, and often is mistaken for the hare, can and does keep touching his tail over three to four hundred yards. No matter how rough the ground. So will someone please say what the specification is for a pedigree racing Whippet. Because thats all I really wanted to know When I first came in to browse the highly entertaining and interesting forum pages at K9. Thank you.  
     
  2. June Jonigk

    June Jonigk Active Member Registered

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    Hi Hounded

    That is one of the good things about racing - your dog can be anything from 14 to 32 pounds, and be up to 20 inches for bitches, and 21 inches for dogs at the shoulder.  Some handicapping systems favour the big dogs, and some the small dogs, so there's something for everyone.  I used to show my dogs, but gave up when my two newest pups (now 8 years old) hated showing, and absolutely refused to be looked at by a judge.  The final straw was when someone said to me "don't bother taking them to Champ shows - they're too small".  Both were bitches and 18 inches at the shoulder - perfect size I'd say! :shocked:   When we went racing it was a different matter, they absolutely loved it.  Racing suits whippets much more than being overweight and standing looking pretty on a table - but of course that's only my opinion.  :biggrin:
     
  3. dawn

    dawn New Member Registered

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    Hi June

    As you wanted here is our response. We show our whippets and they absolutely love it.  In fact if the show bag comes out they all want to come and the ones left at home sulk.  By the way none of our dogs are overweight!  The older ones who are now 8 love showing themselves off in the ring even in veteran. Could it not be said that it is the racing dogs which are UNDERWEIGHT.

    As far as height is concerned I agree that some of the show dogs have lost the balance that comes with being the 'standard' size this is partly through the internationalisation of the showing fraternity. As you would expect from the USA their are dogs larger than ours and to export you must reach their standard :biggrin:

    There is little point in showing a dog that does not meet the current 'standard' whether that is the written standard or, as in this case, the accepted standard.
     
  4. hounded

    hounded New Member Registered

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    To June and Dawn, well ladies thank you so much for  your seperate, but very interesting responses. Which quite definitely filled in the gaps for me. Yet not the one between my ears, because thats still ringing to the inevitable tones of a split decision.  
     
  5. Judy

    Judy New Member Registered

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    Just to enter the underweight/overweight debate, I reckon that at the end of the day, show whippets are not overweight for showing but are for racing and racing whippets are not underweight for racing but are for showing.

    Hey! I just previewed that bit and my Ikontags worked!

    I guess that a certain percentage of fat is required to look right to the show judge's eye and a different percentage is required to enable a dog to run at it's fastest.

    Just to answer an often heard critisism that racing dogs are kept thin because of the weight handicap system : Dogs are raced in weight groups at opens and often at clubs so there would be absolutely no point in getting weight off a dog so that it gets more of a lead on it's competitors. If it went from (say) 20lb down to 19lb it may run of the front in a 19-21lb group but the chances are it would just have to run off the back in a 14-19lb group the very next week. Most racers realise that their dogs have an optimum weight at which they run best and that too light is as bad as too heavy. Some dogs seem to run better when they look a bit skinny and others run better carrying a bit more weight.
     
  6. hounded

    hounded New Member Registered

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    OK ladies, I'm now convinced that on a rainy day, your replies were worth an hour of sunshine. And now that I've got Whippets if I ever find any friends, I will most certainly give them a nod of approval for your message boards. In actual fact the first reply was the business.

    Thank you all. Hounded out.  
     
  7. Guest

    Hi

    Dawn and Judy's differing replys on whippet size and the comment on size needing to be up to export to North America, just put me in the mind to post.  At present I have two young dogs I am showing, but we also course and race.  Our bitch Brie is 19 inches and weighs in at 25 lbs.  Caleb (at 8 months) is 20 inches and weighs in at 28 lbs.  Brie is totally American bred with no English influence for at least 7 generations.  Caleb on the other hand is of English export stock, being a combination of Shalfleet and Hillsdown (through Fergal, similar lines to Dawn's).  Although the American and Canadian standard allows for taller dogs than England, I do not know a single breeder who wants the bigger size!  When others see Caleb at 20 inches, they are so envious.  We import from England to keep size down, and small dogs do win here.  I bred to an English import to reduce size and ended up with a litter of 7 males, 3 of which went oversize (one was 23 inches tall!).  The dam was of Scandinavian heritage and was not big (19 inches).  I think that until we have an "International" standard, this trouble with size will keep popping up.  I've been told by several friends who have attended shows in England this year that many, many dogs are large there too - so, here's the question - do you breed to your standard, or do you breed to interest American/Canadian importers?  Also, I've posted this in several other spots on site, but I am still trying to get a copy of your latest U.K. breed standard.  Dawn, I'm sure you've got one - how about sharing or letting me know where I can get one on line.  We are doing comparison studies with different standards and will be holding a seminar in this regard at the American National in April.  Thanks for help and would love your opinions.

    By the way, in Canada and the U.S. some dogs are shown fat and out of shape, the ones that really win are the ones that are in the ring and in the field, our standard insists that the dog be "put down in hard condition" and there are few judges here that would give a second glance to a "soft" whippet. ;)
     
  8. hounded

    hounded New Member Registered

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    Thanks Barbara, As far as I'm aware the Kc web site is undergoing reconstruction. But through direct correspondence with the KC, I managed early in 2000 to obtain their version of the British standard for Whippets. During the conversation I was also informed that Whippets at show were not a measured breed. And as such any size of dog or bitch could be entered, on the understanding that the judge would immediately

    mark down an oversized entrant. Before taking into account all other elements. My copy of  specimen sizes for the breed records Dogs at 18 and a half inches to 19 and a half inches,

    Bitches at 17 and a half inches to 18 and a half inches.

    Recenly, I have also recieved hints from  CC winners that the standard has been raised. But the same people were telling me that prior to my chat and correspondence with the KC. Who for my money, of which the've had plenty, are as the governing authority

    responsible for the whole sorry mess. Because as things stand the printed pedigree for a whippet is'nt worth the paper it's written on. Particularly if a new owner is expecting a recently purchased puppy to realise the show potential that they are claimed to have.
     
  9. hounded

    hounded New Member Registered

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    As an omission, and in addition to the above reply.

    Surely it is the responsibility of the KC to keep informed

    the registered breeders, whippet clubs, and all other relevant organisations, both as to impending, and resolutions regarding any change to breed standards. Have they not done so?
     
  10. Guest

    Hi Barbara

    Hope all is well, and thank you for your very interesting post, regarding size etc.  Of course, here our standard allows for a bigger dog as in the U.S.  The Canadian standard states that the sizes are approximates, however the American standard disqualifies for 1/2 inch above or below standard - and I've seen them measured last year at the National in the Specials Class!  For a while in the 80's size seemed to really be going up and you still here some saying "oh, look how big they are", but the truth is that there are not that many out of the size limits.  On the whole, male whippets in Canada and the U.S. are under the max. limit and there are more and more bitches who are right in the middle of their suggested sizes, so I think we're doing all right in the size department - according to our standards.  Therein lies the problem, with the world getting increasingly smaller and with imports/exports being quite common now, I think (I know- who really cares what I think, but others do too), that its time for an International Standard.  Now, good luck getting everyone to agree!  As to ears, its the old saying "they don't run on their ears!", but as you also stated they don't look very nice with them at full fly!  When excited, most whippets do fly their ears (Brie and Caleb both do), but yet they've never done it in the ring.  I think the idea behind the standard regarding ears and other cosmetic features is that it should be possible to breed a good sighthound hunter who still is very esthetically pleasing.  

    Dawn - you show a lot - what's your opinion on this?
     
  11. hounded

    hounded New Member Registered

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    Hello Barbara, To coin a phrase I found your reply, well spoken. In regard to height you are absolutely right, the max height for a dog is 20 inches. Nor in reference to your point < to a lot of show people height really isn't an issue. It's a point like any other, not a point for disqualification >  was I implying that oversize is a point for disqualification, merely that the judge would deduct from (their) overall assessment, the height fault, before arriving at a decision. But to me this is a situation, which, for want of better procedure, directly opposes the purpose or necessity for having a breed standard in the first place. And whilst allowed to continue unchecked, we could all be facing a future where Greyhound owners will wonder why they bother. ---  Yes the hit and miss episodes through traditional methods of breeding are, I grant you, almost impossible to forecast in terms of how the progeny will develope.   So lets all hang our hats on a peg and vote for genetic research to provide the answers to the mating problem. Could you imagine a limited edition of cloned Dutch Golds. Perish the thought, let nature rule as it does at the moment.

    Thanks a bundle, your pages have helped me to know just how glad I am with my own miscreant versions of a Whippet, beautiful as they are. Hounded out.
     
  12. dawn

    dawn New Member Registered

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    Hi

    There are many large whippets in the ring at the moment, in fact a correct sized dog would be made to look small.

    We attended a local open show recently and were actually mistaken in what we thought was a greyhound pup until it entered the whippet ring in the junior class.  The Newtons of the Nevedith kennel were at the same show and were absolutely 'gob smacked'

    How many breeders 'exagerate' about the size of their dogs!

    We personally like the smaller whippet and feel that the breed as a whole is loosing some of its qualities as it gets larger.
     
  13. hounded

    hounded New Member Registered

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    Hello Dawn, Thank you for your reply. I also agree that the smaller dog is preferable. Particularly if that dog is to standard size. Yes unfortunately there always will be disreputable breeders, either by design or through ignorance. But, comfort can be taken from the hope that the established breeders will herald a return to the written standard. If indeed some are not nor ever have  exceeded the same. For the sake of the genuine Whippet lover I certainly trust so. My own monster sized dog I shall go on loving regardless of him being such an outcast. But a beautiful outcast. Hounded Final.  
     

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